Chalav Stam? no such a thing

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  • #809615
    hello99
    Participant

    sam: Rav Shachter told me personally 96%, but that’s not important.

    “it’s very clear that we have more reasons to add Chumros to a Lav that is Mefurash Bikrah than one which isn’t. I would think that would be Pashut”

    Not at all. A drasha is just as much dOraisa as mefurash. Would you be meikil eating Basar bChalav since the Torah only writes cooking and eating is a drasha?

    You still haven’t addressed my point that there is NO ta’aruvos on statistical probability alone without vadai issur.

    I’m also looking forward to a source for the Rosh an Ra’avad

    #809616
    Sam2
    Participant

    The source for the Rosh will have to wait about a week until i get back to my notebook. I have no response to your probability thing. I don’t think it’s a probability there. I think we can say, based on statistical percentages worldwide, that Anan Sahadi that there is more than 1.6% Treifos in any large batch of cows. Agree to disagree there I guess. And I am not talking about having Kulos. I am just talking about not having Chumros which in other situations we wouldn’t take (e.g. to be Yotzei one Rishon or to worry about a minority opinion that has already been dismissed by the Poskim, etc.).

    #809619
    oomis
    Participant

    And eating Hershey’s chocolate is never a shas hadchak.”

    Speak for yourself 😉

    #809620
    Bed-Stuy
    Participant

    Rav Moshe’s psak is in the Igros Moshe and is in general that CS is only to be used bshas hadchak.

    #809621
    hello99
    Participant

    sam: “I think we can say, based on statistical percentages worldwide, that Anan Sahadi that there is more than 1.6% Treifos in any large batch of cows”

    Statistics is by definition a probabilty and average. As Rav Shachter demonstrated you could have an elderly herd with close to 100% triefos. On the other hand, my friend says when he schechts in Uruguay they could have days where they schect hundreds of cows and not one is treif.

    “And I am not talking about having Kulos. I am just talking about not having Chumros which in other situations we wouldn’t take”

    Who is talking about chumros? And where do you find any difference at all between a lav and an asei?

    #809622
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Joseph. As has been pointed out you have ripped “shas hadchak” out of context.

    My comment was intended to be humorous more than anything else. But someone with blinders and an agenda would never see that.

    Regarding chocolate. It would have to be a true shas hadchak to get me to eat some of the CY brands of chocolate.

    #809623
    Bed-Stuy
    Participant

    apy: I’m glad you agree Hershey’s Choclate is NEVER a bshas hadchak. Now that you’ve gotten that far, purchase an Igros Moshe. It says CS in general is only allowed, even for a non-Baal Nefesh, bshas hadchak.

    #809624
    Bed-Stuy
    Participant

    Every teshuva in Igros Moshe is written to someone with specific circumstances. The fact that the teshuva coincidentally was written to a Yeshiva does not limit is applicability to a Yeshiva.

    #809625
    Feif Un
    Participant

    The teshuva which mentions b’shas hadchak is in the last chelek, which was not put together by R’ Moshe. R’ Moshe only published the teshuvos he felt were appropriate for the general public, and there was a reason he left that one out.

    #809626
    Sam2
    Participant

    I once asked my Rov why he isn’t Makpid on Cholov Yisroel. He (a Talmid of Rav Moshe) answered that Rav Moshe went out of his way to publish several T’shuvos that Cholov Stam in America is Muttar. And B’Sha’as Had’chak is only mentioned in the dubios (at best) eigth Chelek. And Bed-Stuy, haven’t you read any introduction to any SHU”T Sefer that always warns that each Teshuva is only meant for that specific case and that one must be incrdibly careful when changing the context because that always can change the P’sak?

    #809628
    mw13
    Participant

    Yersl:

    The reason people do not call chalav stam “chalav akum” is because R’ Moshe holds that any milk in America is considered cholov yisroel (since there are laws that prohibit anything besides cow’s milk being in a container marked “milk”). Therefore, it is called cholov stam only to differentiate between cholov yisroel according to everybody and cholov yisroel only according to R’ Moshe.

    (I only read the OP of this thread, so I apologize if this comment is repeating things already said.)

    #809629
    hello99
    Participant

    Har Tzvi and Rav Elyashiv ybl”c write that nukuvas hakeres is a safek treifa, not vadai

    #809630
    hello99
    Participant

    Sam2

    Member

    The source for the Rosh will have to wait about a week until i get back to my notebook.

    Posted 6 days ago

    did you find the notebook?

    #809631
    hello99
    Participant

    still waiting

    #809632
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The truth is nobody milks a cow anymore

    Its all done by a cow milking machine

    #809633
    hello99
    Participant

    zahavasdad: what is the relevance?

    #809634
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Chalav Akum means it was milked by a Goy

    Probably the Chalav Yisroel was milked by a machine too, the machine milks the cow very fast and easier than the traditional method

    BTW this is one the reasons of Rav Moshe Heter, since the cow is not milked by a goy its not Chalav Akum

    #809635
    metrodriver
    Member

    Zahavasdad; No. the determining factor ( whether it is Cholov Yisroel or Cholov Akku”m (OK Cholov Stam.)) is not whether a human or machine did the actual milking. Rather, under whose auspices it was performed. Whether a Jewish observer was present or not. BTW. The Heter of Reb Moshe Z”L is based on “Yotze V’nichnass” ???? ?????. Namely. That the (Jewish) observer can (Has a right to) be present at any time. Even if he is not physically there at the time.

    #809636
    trak443
    Participant

    cholov yisroel= milked by a yid

    cholov akkum= milked by a goy

    cholov stam=???milked by a gorilla?

    #809637
    trak443
    Participant

    seriously, where can one find the actual shayla and answer that was asked to rav moshe? (preferably in english by a well-known trusted translator?

    #809638
    Sam2
    Participant

    Rav Moshe never mentioned the machines but I always wondered about that. You can’t sneak in Treif milk while milking if you don’t have a person do the milking.

    #809639
    Sam2
    Participant

    Trak: A trusted translator of R’ Moshe’s Shailos is an inherent contradiction. If I recall correctly, R’ Moshe has a Tshuvah saying it’s Assur to translate his T’shuvos.

    #809640
    hello99
    Participant

    Sam: who attaches the machine to the udder? a person. he could attach a horse instead.

    can you please source the “no translations”

    #809641
    Sam2
    Participant

    Wow, Hello, you want everything. I believe the no translations was somewhere in Yoreh Deah Chelek 2, but I’m not positive at the moment.

    And the Rosh is quoted by the Rama in YD 109:2

    #809642
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The machine only fits the udder of a cow, No other animal fits the metal tubs

    #809643
    Sam2
    Participant

    And the “no translations” was YD 3:91 or 92

    #809644
    hello99
    Participant

    Sam: regarding translating Igros Moshe, you are correct it is YD 3:91

    #809645
    hello99
    Participant

    Zahavasdad: where do you get this information from? Did you ever try hooking a milking machine to other species of animals?

    #809646
    Sam2
    Participant

    Hello: I would agree with you, but that is the source R’ Schachter gave me (I asked him again). So clearly R’ Elyashiv thought that it was applicable in this case.

    #809647
    Feif Un
    Participant

    trak443: Chalav Yisrael does not mean it was milked by a Jew. It means a Jew observed the process, to ensure that no milk from other animals was added.

    R’ Moshe held that due to certain circumstances in the US, there did not need to be a Jew present – it was as if a Jew was there, even without it.

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