@Chabad Shluchah Please Explain Why Davening To/Betten a Rebbe is Okay

SY – for example – the line “All yidden are one neshama split between many bodies. The “brain” of the neshama, is the Rebbe.” steps out of the boundaries of anything most of us would consider a Torah thought. If we say so, is that an attack? are we allowed to defend Torah as well? if we don’t like it are we out for blood?

no need to respond, i don’t want to make a side conversation. I just think that you seem highly unaware of how you are coming across because of your expectations.

@Chabad shlucha: “Which spells out why asking Moshe rabbeinu for things in the midbar was fine whereas doing the same with the eigel was avoda zara.”
Moshe Rabbeinu did not consider it “fine” when the Yidden in the midbar asked him for things!
Seeשמות ט”ז
ז ובקר וראיתם את־כבוד ד’ בשמעו את־תלנתיכם על־ד’ ונחנו מה כי תלינוּ עלינו:
ח ויאמר משה בתת ד’ לכם בערב בשר לאכל ולחם בבקר לשבע בשמע ד’ את־תלנתיכם אשר־אתם מלינם עליו ונחנו מה לא־עלֵינו תלנתיכם כי על־ד’:

I have more derech eretz for your Rebbe ztz”l, than to think that he would compare himself to the RBS”O or even to Moshe Rabbeinu, c”v. Please go back to your teachers and ask them to start with the very basics before jumping to Toras haNistar. That trajectory has messed up many people in much greater generations than ours.

I haven’t read any comments, because my blood pressure needs more monitoring, according to my cardiologist. So I am just answering the TITLE of the thread.

Disclaimer…. I am far from a Moshichist – let that be very clear. No flags, pins, signs etc & Yechi is not permitted in our or any of our children’s homes.

So here’s the thing. Chabadnikim do not daven TO the Rebbe: we daven to G-d. What we do is visit the Ohel, write to the Ohel if we are overseas & the PAN is taken to the Ohel (the wonders of modern technology being used in the right way!) to ask the Rebbe to intercede on our behalf.

We personally have seen how, after literally years of asking for a bracha to move to Eretz Yisrael, after I went to the Ohel & asked for a siman that moving to EY would be good… 2 weeks later, my husband was offered a job here.

I try to go to the Ohel as soon as I get off the plane & again right before I leave. But this is what bothers me. I’m sure there are many comments above that are offensive and scathing, so I ask you…why do people flock to kivrei Tzaddikim? Not just Shmuel HaTzaddik, or Rochel Imeinu, but to Maran Ovadia Yosef & after the yartzheit, (or before, according to custom) to HaRav Shteinerman? Why is that OK (& judging by what I have seen & the number of people crying, they are “beiten” the Tzaddik to intervene On High), but going to the Rebbe is NOT OK?

It is incumbent for every Chosid to believe his Rebbe is the Moshe Rabbeinu of the generation. And for us, the Rebbe possessed all the qualities of Moshiach. Will he be revealed as Moshiach? Well, I hope we will find out momentarily. If yes, great; if not… Moshiach will be here!! Frankly, I have no more clue than anyone & personally, I don’t believe it’s right to speculate.

I get that there are many YWN readers (some I can name) who won’t miss an opportunity to viciously denigrate not only Chabad but the Rebbe. So I made a hachlota for Chof Beis Shvat, the 30th yartzheit of Rebbetzin Chaya Mushka (whose levaya I still see); I’m not going to be drawn into any more arguments or answer even the most virulent anti-Chabadnikim. I will, however, if asked anything in a respectful manner, do my best to answer in the same vein – if I can!

May we all be zoche to greet Moshiach – whoever he is – NOW.

@syag I never said or implied I’m so smart and you’re all not.
What I did say is that compared to the Rebbe, we both have no understanding. As chassidim say, were the toenails, the Rebbe is the head.

Or as reb Hillel Paritcher, famous chossid of the Alter Rebbe said, “compared to the Rebbe I understand like a goat. And I don’t mean that the difference between my understanding and the Rebbe’s understanding (of Hashem etc ed) is the same same difference as the understanding between a goat and me, but rather, me and the goat understand the same of what a Rebbe is.”

And like you said we are all frum yidden, so it shouldn’t be so difficult to expect respect for Torah as that should be a frum value. I wouldn’t have this discussion with someone not frum. I expect better from frum yidden. As you should expect respect from me for your gedolim.

About the brain reference, that’s Tanya perek beis. Concept of all yidden being one neshama is brought down in Zohar. And expounded upon in many places in Chassidus. Also Tanya perek beis.

You’re welcome to ask. All im saying is that there is a way to ask – in a respectful manner.

Have you heard of Yaakov having a neshama klalis? Or is that something only people who learn Chassidus have heard of.

Lastly it seems there is some confusion. You can’t daven to the Rebbe. But you can ask brochos from the Rebbe for anything, as many chassidim do, not just Chabad. And today, even litvishe people by their gedolim / Roshei Yeshivos.

How is this allowed? Explanation posted above. I get there may be many new concepts there for people who haven’t learned Chassidus, so feel free to ask on anything else or for any source.

“Please go back to your teachers and ask them to start with the very basics before jumping to Toras haNistar. That trajectory has messed up many people in much greater generations than ours.”

You’re 100% right in theory although it seems you don’t understand who or what we’re discussing here- I guess it makes sense you didn’t learn Chabad history in high school 🙂

Basically you’re right – its very dangerous to learn nistar on you’re own, without a proper teacher or explanation. Which is why I don’t get hope toi thinks he’s learning more pnimius HaTorah than me – with no Chassidus.

But that’s exactly what the Alter Rebbe was tasked with and why the Baal Shem Tov was so excited when he heard the Alter Rebbe’s neshama was coming down to this world – a neshama chadasha, not a gilgul. Alter Rebbe was given this special neshama and tasked with taking pnimius HaTorah and bringing it into intellect – chochma bina and Daas – Chabad, in a way that it is now understandable and accessible to every Jew.

And he did that with writing the Tanya, Torah Or and Likutei Torah revealing tremendous concepts that were never bought into this world before.

All the other Rebbeim’s Torah are based off of the Alter Rebbe’s maamarim or subsequent Rebbeim (except maybe some of the Rebbe’s) They all expounded on it, and brought it down more but the core ideas were revealed by the Alter Rebbe.

So yes it is very dangerous to open a Zohar on your own and chart your Avodas Hahem according to what you “understand” without a proper teacher.

But Chassidus takes the concepts and makes them accessible by explaining them using mashalim from our experience.

Now before someone says this is disrespectful to everyone else, everyone has what they offer. I think Belz did Kiruv in Europe during the haskala movement – before Chabad. But what you said here is exactly what Chabad is all about.

the rebbe is daavening at you request.
idk why this comment didnt go thu i wrote it a few days ago.

I am still trying to tell if you deliberately distort the questions or if you really don’t understand them as they were written. On the chance it is not deliberate:

@syag I never said or implied I’m so smart and you’re all not.

that wasn’t my claim. you have made several comments about how your concepts are too deep for most of us and have commented several times that it’s too hard to understand. Mostly because someone disagreed and you assumed it was a lack of comprehension.

And like you said we are all frum yidden, so it shouldn’t be so difficult to expect respect for Torah as that should be a frum value

My mention of being frum was not made in this context. As you know, I brought up being frum as a way of explaining to you that we too have rebbeim and Torah giants and a mesorah and will also defend our Rebbeim and Torah so asking us to set aside what we know is right and wrong so that you can feel respected is not acceptable. If you think my mention of being frum was about being respectful, then you seem to have missed my most important point.

.About the brain reference, that’s Tanya perek beis. Concept of all yidden being one neshama is brought down in Zohar. And expounded upon in many places in Chassidus. Also Tanya perek beis.

You must be aware that it was not the Zohar portion I was commenting on, it was claiming the Rebbe is the brain. I said the comment is problematic and you answer with the portion that isn’t and bring sources. Is this a deliberate omission? Is this how all of our sincere questions will be “answered”? You claim xyz are attributes of the Rebbe, and as a source you bring that xyz exist. That doesn’t begin to explain your statement and I feel you are making a fool of our sincerity. If there are answers, why can’t we have them? If I tell you that a donkey told me who was going to be moshiach, and my source was that donkeys indeed speak as we see in parsha with Balak, that would be insulting, denigrating and a distortion of Torah. Please do not do that in answering our sincere questions either.

in a respectful manner.

As I said, you are asking for respect but not willing to acknowledge the disrespect to our own gedolim and talmidei chochomim. Please understand that.

Rather, he is Hashem’s messenger telling me what my lifes mission is. A personal message from Hashem – relayed to me via his Roeh Neeman. And if that’s what I’m meant to do, that means this is what I was created for and given my set of talents for. And if course, fulfilling my mission will help me live life to the fullest

that is not special for lubavitch. that is how we all do things and how we all see the messages delivered by our gedolim and rabbeim. The problem is the Rebbe is not alive and could not have told you that. He is not here to be a personal messanger and give you advice. and THAT is what is in question.

Please go back to answering Toi, his questions are valid, thought out and speak for many.

Syag: I agree with most of what you said, however saying “that is not special for lubavitch. that is how we all do things and how we all see the messages delivered by our gedolim and rabbeim.”

I think we believe that gedolim and rebbeim have use the Torah to give advice hence calling it “daas Torah”, and we believe their advice may contain an extra dose of siyata dishmaya, but to say we believe that all advice from gedolim and rebbeim are a direct or personal message from Hashem? I don’t think so.

@ “Alter Rebbe was given this special neshama and tasked with taking pnimius HaTorah and bringing it into intellect”

The RAMCHAL did a masterful job of this already.

Why should the lubavitch image be of any more signifance than anyone else’s image. Yet noone else uses that term about themselves. Usually Yodden just say chilul Hashem because the “PR” for Hashem is of the only importance to them.

I am not sure why but it seems you think people are asking why it’s okay to ask rebbeim for brachos. I am pretty sure that is a fairly common concept, the question has been, if you will go back to check it again, how you are thinking you have gotten a response from someone who is no longer alive? We all daven by kivrei tsaddikim and HASHEM answers us. not the tsaddik. Even if He answers THROUGH the tefillos of the tsaddik. This idea of getting present day responses to present day specifics as if he answered is the question. And it is not a chassidus question as they do not do this once the rebbe has died.

Been following this thread with interest.

1. Would like top see a coherent defense or denouncement of the Rabbi Cunin video.

2. One can ask for a bracha from a litvishe Gadol/Rosh Yeshiva, provided that individual is alive. So comparing the two would not be accurate….

Sechel,

“שכינה מדברת מתוך גרונו”
You do realize that is exclusively to משה רע”ה ,ONLY not even any other Navi, the Rebbe is not even close to any Navi. ( And I lost was already discussed in another thread, which I think this one is just a recycling most issues).

More surprised that you should have known that at least from the Tanya.

– לקו”א ל”ד

והנה, מודעת זאת, ש(זוהר ויקרא כז): “האבות הן הן המרכבה”, שכל ימיהם לעולם לא הפסיקו אפילו שעה אחת מלקשר דעתם ונשמתם לרבון העולמים בביטול הנ”ל ליחודו יתברך, ואחריהם כל הנביאים כל אחד לפי מדרגת נשמתו והשגתו, ומדרגת משה רבנו עליו השלום היא העולה על כולנה, שאמרו עליו שכינה מדברת מתוך גרונו של משה (שמו”ר פ’ ג; ויק”ר פ’ ב; מכילתא שמות יח

The only a there one might me בלעם according to some…

“But that’s exactly what the Alter Rebbe was tasked with and why the Baal Shem Tov was so excited when he heard the Alter Rebbe’s neshama was coming down to this world – a neshama chadasha, not a gilgul. Alter Rebbe was given this special neshama and tasked with taking pnimius HaTorah and bringing it into intellect – chochma bina and Daas – Chabad, in a way that it is now understandable and accessible to every Jew.”

This is another story (aka “proof”) of the greatness of chabad that has it’s source a story told only in chabad by chabad.

When will CS understand that we just can’t accept this as even slightly meaningful?

I don’t want to spend much time here and I didn’t read all the posts but it seems that people dont understand the concept of connecting to a tzaddik and they don’t accept Tanya as a source. See דרשות הרן a universally accepted Sefer by a rishon דרוש ח:

אין ספק שראוי שנאמין, שכמו בזמן שבית המקדש היה קיים, היה המעון ההוא המקודש מקום מוכן לחול שפע הנבואה והחכמה, עד שבאמצעות המקום ההוא היה שופע על כל ישראל, כן ראוי שיהיו הנביאים והחכמים מוכנים לקבל שפע החכמה והנבואה, עד שבאמצעותם יושפע השפע ההוא על המוכנים לכל בני דורם לכך, גם אם לא ישתתפו עמהם, אבל מצד המצאם בדורם, שהם בעצמם כמו המקדש המקודש. והרמב”ן ז”ל כתב בסוף סדר והיה עקב: “ויתכן באנשי חכמה זאת המעלה, שתהיה נפשם גם בחייהם צרורה בצרור החיים, כי הם בעצמם מעון לשכינה, כאשר רמזו בעל הכוזרי (מאמר ג, א), ע”כ. ואפשר שנתכוין גם לזה. ולפיכם בהמצאם לנביאים ולחכמים בדורות יהיה השפע שופע עליהם, ובאמצעותם אפשר שיהיה שופע על כל המוכנים מבני דורם, וכל שכן לאותם שהם מתקרבים אליהם ומשתתפים עמהם. ולא בחייהם בלבד, כי גם אחרי מותם, מקומות קברותיהן ראויין להמצא השפע שם בצד מן הצדדים, כי עצמותיהם אשר כבר היו כלים לחול עליהם השפע האלקי, עדיין נשאר בהם מן המעלה והכבוד שיספיק לכיוצא בזה, ומפני זה אמרו רז”ל שראוי להשתטח על קברי הצדיקים ולהתפלל שם, כי התפלה במקום ההוא תהיה רצויה יותר להמצא שם גופות אשר חל עליהם כבר השפע האלקי.

There is nothing new in chassidus every concept has a source in prior seforim if Torah.

The posters here should ask daas Torah themselves before denigrating a whole section of klal Yisroel. Ask Rav Shmuel Kaminetzsky not a Lubavitcher in any way. in the Yeshiva I went to he was considered the gadol hador of America. I personally know 2 bochrim who went to a litvish Yeshiva and wanted to switch to a chabad Yeshiva to learn chassidus as well as Gemara they asked him and his reply was “ why not ? If you want to switch there is no problem we all learn Toras moshe” . These posters here though think they are the daas Torah and gedoilim ofvthus generation as can be seen with the gaava they speak against other segments and leaders in klal Yisroel ( bringing up past machlokesin means nothing, there were always machlokesin going back to the Rambam, ask the daas Torah in your generation )

Typical misnaged talk

The entire chassidus and limud hachassidus has just one purpose AIN OID LEVADO. The is nothing but One Hashem. Our entire life has to revolve around this concept serving only Hashem. ( Not serving ourselves doing mitzvos for schar or avoiding onesh or learning Torah to inflate ourselves and shtayg into gedoilim) Anyone who studies this can see for themselves. Taking small sentences out of context is a smear campaign , the misnagdim are the ones truely bring metame sheretz and will never accept they are wrong no matter what source is brought due to their preconceived notions.

Aww your great but a bit too sharp I’d say normally. But here I think there is a place for it. People who have no clue of Chassidus are paskening on the Rebbe and Chassidus, expecting us to bring sources for everything we say, which they then promptly dismiss because “they” think it doesn’t fit with what they think of Chabad or Yiddishkeit, without bothering to bring a counter source. And these chutzpinyaks dare to place themselves on the same footing as the Rebbe to judge if he is a frum Jew?! Such craziness warrants a real sharp response. As for me, I can’t share here in such a crazy environment where people take half a sentence, pasken its shitfus because that’s what feels right, don’t bother to reply to the sources brought or bring their own, or ask further on what isn’t clear – that would be a serious productive discussion, and if all else fails, counter with 5 new questions…

Anyhow there is a site that answers many such questions with respected Mashpiim within Chabad in short videos called stump the Rabbi – I invite you serious people to check it out.

Bubbyo you sound sincere except for the chutzpah of the above attitude so I’ll respond to a point:

Shitfus is when something says serve me IN ADDITION or INSTEAD OF Hashem. Not when Hashem Himself decides to make tzaddikim His partners in running the world – like all the miracle stories of tzaddikim you hear, just one example – how Hashem left the option of Napoleon or Czar winning the war up to which tzadik would blow shofar first – because in these cases its HASHEM’S system, not a rival one.

By your understanding, it must be very hard to understand the posuk that says “Three times a year all your males should see the face of Hashem your G-d in the place He chose…”

Because according to this sort of understanding, anywhere Hashem reveals Himself becomes shitfus and avoda zara so this we should be forbidden from visiting the Beis Hamikdash, because maybe we’ll think the mountain is god.

I know that’s ridiculous. It’s also ridiculous to say the same about a tzadik.

@Bubbyo,
“It’s time for Chabad to rejoin the body of Klal Yisroel again”
Well, thanks for inviting us back so nicely. I’ll raise it with the board next general meeting.

I’m not sure why anyone here gets the impression that any Lubavitcher here (I, CS, Aww,) is defending davening to the Rebbe. I don’t “daven to the Rebbe” I daven to Hashem. I’ve been Lubavitch my entire life, I’ve never seen anyone “daven to the Rebbe”.

When a Chossid goes to his Rebbes Tziyun, and davens there, that’s beseeching the Rebbe to intercede on your behalf just like a live Tzadik would. Hishtatchus Al Kivrei Tzadikim is not a new concept. Yidden of all stripes do it, ever been to Meron on Lag Baomer? I’ve personally seen Rebbes of other kraizen visit the Lubavitcher Rebbes Tziyun. Are they also “serving a”z?” Yehoshua and Kalev visited Kivrei Tzadikim, the Avos. It’s not a new practice. (I know, the Gra wrote against it… and Litvaks visit his Kever too…)

It’s mind boggling how every time you don’t like something you can throw out “avodah Zara!”. Maybe you should focus on the things that many frum people do that have more likelihood of being A”Z, like yoga, reiki, etc.

Or how about the “Blei Gisen” (pouring lead) to remove Ayin Hora which many say originates in Avoda Zara? I haven’t seen mass protests to it. It’s done in many frum communities, Lakewood too I’m sure.

When I quoted those lines before, with no context at all, just the original, some of you decided that the way I’m using them is also A”Z.

צדיק גוזר…
Of course I mean that the Rebbe is the Aibershter r”l. What else do Lubavitchers believe? Incredulous how you can decide what we believe, and put words in our mouths.

Re Rabbi Cunin, I don’t know about you, but in Lubavitch we aren’t sitting watching videos of him. I’ve never seen this video or any other video of him. Regardless, the insiders will tell you that he’s isn’t the most stable of people…

SY – for the hundredth time, instead of spitting, try answering. You are so volatile that instead of saying, “I am sorry you have this false impression, let me clear this up for you” (which is what we have been asking) your response is, “you all make me sick and I expected nothing less and instead of offering you any information I will just tell you all what I think of you”

not too productive.

Shitfus is when something says serve me IN ADDITION or INSTEAD OF Hashem. Not when Hashem Himself decides to make tzaddikim His partners in running the world

Do you realize that according to your definition, christianity is okay?

@AWW @CS

Very simple question: Just about every sect of Yiddishkeit, whether chassidishe or litvish (the term “misnaged” isnt used anymore today, as many litvishe gedolim have close relationships with, and respect for, many Chassidishe rabbonim) has a leader that they adore and revere. And that is a tremendous thing. But they all believe that there are other people who are gedolim as well and whose words and opinions they respect as being Daas Torah. Chabad also has (had?) a leader they respect and adore. Great. Who is number 2? Is there any other gadol from any other sect that is respected in Chabad circles?