@Chabad Shluchah Please Explain Why Davening To/Betten a Rebbe is Okay

OK I looked up the actual sicha – have you looked it up toi? There are sources right there.

So much for the Rebbe being his own source. But here I’ll translate for you, since we’ve come this far:

From acharon shel Pesach, 5710 (the Frierdiker Rebbe was nistalek then, and the Rebbe had farbrenged the whole year about keeping hiskashrus with the Frierdiker Rebbe, until he was forced to take on the nesius).

“Some ask, how can one even ask anything from a Rebbe, isn’t this the idea of a mimutza – intermediary between a person and Hashem?

Others ask this in connection to matters relating to yiras shomayim-

There is a meshulach who would accept pidyonos with regards to Gashmius matters, but not Ruchnius ones because he would say, even Hashem Himself doesn’t do this, as it says “Hakol bidei shomayim chutz miyiras shomayim.”

And the answer to this is:

When we say “Yisrael, Torah and Hashem are all one” (Zohar), we don’t only mean that “Yisrael connect to Torah which is connected to Hashem,” (Zohar chelek gimmel, 73a), but that they are actually one.

So too with the hiskashrus between chassidim and the Rebbe, it’s not like two separate entities which then unite, rather, they are actually one. And the Rebbe is not a mimutza hamafsik (which is avoda zara -ed), but rather a mimutza hamechaber. (More on this later as is concept in its own)

So automatically, by a chossid, he, the Rebbe and Hashem, are all one.

I haven’t seen this explicitly stated in Toras HaChassidus, but this is my hergesh, so automatically, whoever gets it, will feel it, and whoever doesn’t, I don’t want to argue with him, he can be as he is.

And so automatically, there is no place to ask about a mimutza, because this is Hashem’s essence as He has clothed Himself within a body.

This is like the quote of the Zohar, “The face of the Master, Hashem, is Rashbi”

(footnote : I have seen baalei Nigleh asking on this, and with a great shturem, hayitochen etc etc. But there is an explicit reference in nigle as well, and this is in the Yerushalmi bikurim chap 3, halacha 3: “and Hevaya in His Holy chamber, this refers to R’ Yitzchak the son of Rabbi Elazar in the beis midrash of Kisarin.)

Or as we also find that even a malach who is fulfilling Hashem’s shlichus is called by Hashem’s name at that time, (see Tanya iggros kodesh end of chap 25), or as Moshe rabbeinu said, “And I will give grass” (Ekev 11, 15. Also see likutei Torah vayikra 50, 1)”

Ok so that’s the full quote that toi is having a hard time understanding. If you actually saw it inside as posted, you’d have seen sources there, so the Rebbe didn’t make it up and it wasn’t about himself.

Now if you’d like to understand more about the difference between mimutza hamafsik vs mimutza hamechaber, or any other point that isn’t clear, I’ll be happy to clarify. Just make sure it’s phrased appropriately so that I can explain :).

his Yahrtzeit ג תמוז is market by thousands of people visiting his tziun.

Yes, everyone agrees the day has significance, but many avoid using the term yahrtzeit.

(footnote : I have seen baalei Nigleh asking on this, and with a great shturem, hayitochen etc etc. But there is an explicit reference in nigle as well, and this is in the Yerushalmi bikurim chap 3, halacha 3: “and Hevaya in His Holy chamber, this refers to R’ Yitzchak the son of Rabbi Elazar in the beis midrash of Kisarin.)

Needs further explanation.

Yes DY I can explain further np

I haven’t seen this explicitly stated in Toras HaChassidus, but this is my hergesh, so automatically, whoever gets it, will feel it, and whoever doesn’t, I don’t want to argue with him, he can be as he is.

Is this a quote from the sichah?

Aww that’s great thanks. I was gonna go deep into what a neshama is, the role of a tzadik, how we Hashem and Torah are all one, but you put it so nicely and simply that it looks like there is no need 🙂

Yes DY I can explain further np

So can I. The gemara is saying how bad it is to appoint daysnim based on money. The gemara contrasts that with R’ Yitzchak Ben R’ Elazar who was a dayan hagun.

See the parallel gemara in Sanhedrin (7b). See also ככר לאדן who changes the girsa.

Nothing to do with atzmus in a guf, ch”v.

“Is this a quote from the sichah?”

Yup

DY its nigle, not a maamar, so of course the context is a nigle context. That doesn’t change the fact of how the gemara describes Rabbi Yitzchak. And again the way you understood the sicha is wrong. See the nefesh Hachaim posted above.

So are we done with that one?

Moving on to Josephs question

Bottom line, his sources are really his own understanding, as he actually admits, so don’t claim he has sources.

DaasYochid you are correct. The Rebbe says it’s his understanding and he says it’s not obligatory on anyone else ie his chassidim.

You litvish guys though HAVE TO accept it since this concept is clearly stated in the nefesh hachaim as I quoted above with no qualifications. הוא עצמו המקדש ממש *ובתוכו * ה’ ית”ש

Ha ha ha

(I really do want to stop posting here because it’s such bitul Torah but I couldn’t help that one)

Bli neder this is the last

I will leave it up to the readers to decide on the non chabad sources I quoted and see for themselves the obvious.

You litvish guys though HAVE TO accept it since this concept is clearly stated in the nefesh hachaim

Ch”v did the Nefesh Hachaim ever say such a thing as “this is Hashem’s essence as He has clothed Himself within a body”.

Nor, if the Rebbe was saying the same as the Nefesh Hachaim, woul he have needed to defend himself against “a shturem” and bring “sources”.

As far as the Rebbe not having sources- he said he didn’t EXPLICITLY see this written, very different than making it up from scratch, as seen the same idea from his examples.

To back up his hergesh, he learned pshat in a gemara which is not the typical pshat. That’s still not having outside sources.

Yes he did. he said ובתוכו ה יתברך the בתוך means in a guf (look it up) and ה יתברך means what it says . I will let non biased readers look it up and decide the obvious . OF COURSE this NEEDS explanation but the same explanation given to nefesh hachaim applies to the rebbes words.

The Rebbe says he was not aware of sources in chassidus for this exact concept. Obviously because nefesh hachaim is not a chassidic source. And even litvish don’t learn it much, so yes a shturem amongst the ignorant.

Actually I take that back toi. Was trying to figure out that lay sentence for awhile. Goodness, some people never learn. Don’t want to rehash about ten posts so I’ll just say I can’t continue to answer someone so lacking in respect for Gedolei Yisrael. Really unacceptable. I can address Josephs questions tomorrow iyh.

A young Bais Yaakov graduate whom I taught, got a job as an assistant in an out of town Chabad day school. She was very confused when the teacher and the class turned to the picture of the Rebbe and addressed a tefilla to him. She strongly felt the dilemma, since she said daily in the
. י”ג עקרים – אני מאמין …שהבורא יתברך שמו, לו לבדו ראוי להתפלל, ואין לזולתו ראוי להתפלל.
She asked the teacher and was mocked, so she asked a shailo of a Rov who is one of the gedolei haposkim of our generation. He is litvish but has vast knowledge in chassidus and nistar as well. He told her that she must quit.
I know that Chabad learns Rambam, so I don’t really understand what they do with this. It is quite clear and unambiguous.
People who daven at kevorim, myself included, daven there to the RBS”O in the zechus of the tzaddik. Or there are some who ask the tzaddik to come to the RBS”O on their behalf, although there are poskim who consider that questionable too. But to my knowledge, turning to a picture and addressing a tefilla to it (or what/who it represents), is unprecedented in the frum world and is kefira mamash, or much too close to it for comfort regardless of any explanation from any source what-so-ever. These young children are certainly not grasping any nuance of kavano that might possibly differentiate this from one of the severest aveiros.
I found this very frightening!

To be fair, I have to write that the incident in the Chabad day school took place at least 15 years ago. Perhaps things like that have been corrected by now in all Chabad schools. I certainly hope so. But it is true stories like that one which made me fear for the future of Chabad chassidim.

@Shlucha-“Or maybe they were asking for a Bracha?”
-So that makes it ok then?

OK, Toi, I took the bait and found the website.

Somewhat of an interesting read, and they were certainly more respectful than the Chabad critics from the religious left or non-religious sects. However, their knowledge of specific Chabad texts implies that there are some ex-Lubavitchers involved with the site, and their knowledge of the Orthodox world in general seems more lacking. I suspect it’s a site made by disenchanted Lubavitchers who are now probably MO, and it is not a site that represents mainstream Litvish opinion.

In their “halachah” section, they just quote sources speaking on general concepts (specifically praying with an intermediary) and apply it to Chabad themselves. They quote no contemporary sources who say these things actually are a problem with Chabad.

They seem to have a problem with very mundane, Chareidi practices like having pictures of Rebbeim up, learning from their Rebbe’s works during Shabbos meal, etc. This leads me to believe the authors have no experience with the frum world outside of Chabad and a few things they learned by googling a catchy phrase like “halacha of praying to intermediary.”

@TOI,
“I found a site called identifying chabad dot org,”

That’s like quoting the failed messiah site as proof for something I don’t like in the Chareidi world. Pretty stupid of you.

I think this entire thread is useless, and most of the commenters (you know who you are) are just “out for blood” and not willing to hear out any Lubavitcher explain anything. I have much to say, but I won’t waste my time with the likes of TaoI and LitvisherMisnaged (apologies if I forgot to mention you). @ChabadShlucha you’re trying valiantly, but I’m afraid you’re wasting your time here. Perhaps use your skills in the comments section on chabad.org:)

(apologies if I forgot to mention you).

I’m moichel.

“you’re trying valiantly, but I’m afraid you’re wasting your time here. Perhaps use your skills in the comments section on chabad.org:)”

Na I’m fine although I did say I will protest when unacceptable things are said, so for the sake of those who actually want to find out, maybe they’ll stop that. As long as the mods are fair with this discussion, which they have been, and there are people who are sincere which I think there are, I don’t see why I should leave everyone hanging because of three or two spoilers. Many chabad.org readers are a bit too basic to share this deep learning, which is fine but not exactly an alternative 😉

Anyhow because Joseph is getting impatient here’s the concept in a few points.feel free to ask on anything.

Memutza hamafsik is when someone goes to an intermediary, (outside of him) to go to Hashem for him. This can even be a malach or spiritual powers such as the 70 sarim etc. For a yid this is avoda zara as we need to go directly to Hashem with nothing serving as a bridge in between.

Mimutza hamechaber is when we’re all one so you’re not going to someone in between. Like the knot of a rope is the rope itself.

To explain:

Every yid has a neshama which is at its essence, one with Hashem, that’s why when a Jew is faced with the certain prospect of cutting himself off from Hashem, he will find up his life, like we see by avoda zara. Then we come into this world which looks the furthest thing from Hashem.

Our mission is to show how this world, which looks as far as it can get from Hashem, is really one with Hashem by living that reality in Torah and mitzvos life.

All yidden are one neshama split between many bodies. The “brain” of the neshama, is the Rebbe.

This means, just like the brain of the child is the only part that stays the same essence as the brain of its father, so too the neshamos of our leaders are one with Hashem’s chochma, they are our deepest part.

So when you go to the Rebbe for a Bracha etc your connecting to the deepest part of your own neshama.

However the Rebbe serves a double function: He is also Hashem’s messenger / ambassador on earth to help every yid internalise their inborn emuna and live according to it.

So when the Rebbe, (a tzadik according to the definition of Tanya), tells you something, he’s not telling you his personal opinion of what you should do with your life, rather, Hashem is giving you personal guidance through the Rebbe.

Hashem setup this system in the midbar and from then on. Which is why the yidden always came asking Moshe for everything, but doing the same with the eigel was avoda zara.

Now you can also understand the medrash tehillim on kapitl tzadik “Tefilla lMoshe Ish hoelokim” “Moshe’s lower half was human and upper half- Elokim.”

Meaning, he was so transparent, had no ego etc, until Hashem could speak through him and he could say “I will give grass…”

Alright lots here, ask whatever isn’t clear.

Ok, I think we need to clarify a couple things. SY – you need to just chill out. On the last thread, though there were legitimate questions, there was a lot of spewing and emotions on BOTH sides of the proverbial fence. But you need to stop throwing a fit and calling people out for blood because they are questioning concepts that they have been taught are WRONG. just as you are fighting against what you were taught is WRONG. So calm down.
CS – I would like you to step back a second and have some understanding for what you are saying that you might not hear (which will explain why you don’t understand the responses you are being given). When someone raised learning from sources that loose pants are acceptable for women approaches me about why I believe she is not clothed b’tzniut, that is not called an attack. And I shouldn’t need to have contractual agreements about the preface for our conversations in order to answer her. You are talking to intelligent, learned, Torah observant Jews who have been learning and following talmidei chochomim for generations. Giants in Torah. If they want to ask you a question about things they have been told are foundation of your observance, that THEY have learned are wrong – you are wrong telling them: they are too simple to absorb your lofty learnings (there are plenty unlearned and “simple” chabadniks too) , or theat they are being disrespectful. You may not understand how your comments about the Rebbe are very very belittling of all the great Gaonim of the generations in our eyes just as you feel our non acceptance is disrespectful to you.

You are going to have to accept that non chabadniks are entitled to defend their mesorah and Torah against anything they feel threatens it, and your job as a shlucha here is to provide that knowledge that would teach them why they are incorrect in that premise. But to start slamming doors on people for not holding your rebbe in the highest regard, which would go against our own mesorah, while you are unknowingly doing the same is just wrong.

You may have to accept that there are people who have learned Chabad ways are wrong, they are asking you to give them information to change that understanding, and that the answer to all the questions CANNOT be expected to be: you are all too simple, you have to acknowledge who my rebbe was before i will tell you why you should, and you have to accept everything he says even if you believe that your years of learning have taught you different.

I don’t think you realize you are saying this, and I think you believe you aren’t, but that is how it is coming across. If you want respect for your Rebbe and your derech. then explain why, and allow people to respect their mesorah, Torah and gedolim as well.