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frumguy33: In fact Rav Elyashiv mulled creating a Yichus Registry precisely because of problems such as this where we have goyim mixing into Klal Yisroel pretending to be Jewish.
Joseph, rav eliyashiv was considering a registry but never did it?? That should prove how wrong you are. He never did it. Secondly where is your proof he even considered it, should we just take your word? Further perhaps rav eliyashiv was talking about a registry in Israel which could have a problem because of Jews from the former Soviet Union and because of their liberal law of return policies. However we are talking about America. Do you have any evidence of how Rav Moshe Feinstein felt? How about any other gedol???
OK, as with all things in life, speak with the experts. I am no expert, but your mitsiyus is totally off. Of the hundreds of people I came into contact with whole I was involved in kiruv, only two or three were not hallachikly Jewish.
I have discussed this issue with the leading outreach groups in the world. Most have received guidance from gedolim that you should be open to anyone who identifies as Jewish, as asking about heritage and lineage will turn people away.
Another organization had a psak that as long as it is less than one in ten, there is no concern with having anyone who identifies as Jewish on your program. If we, the staff, discovered that someone may not be hallachikly Jewish, we were told not to make an issue of it in the moment. Down the line, you can make a mental note and focus on some people, but even they have seven mitzvos, and being a ma’amin is a big deal.
Tachlis, not an issue.
That sort of cavalier attitude is what directly leads to intermarriage.
Hey, she thinks she’s Jewish, she self-identifies as Jewish, so what’s the big deal. Let’s treat her as a Jew and if later a real Jewish man married this gentile woman, why sweat too much about it.
This is exactly what Rav Elyashiv was concerned about, leading him to seriously consider establishing a Yichus Registry to document who is and who isn’t truly a Jew.
“That sort of cavalier attitude is what directly leads to intermarriage.
Hey, she thinks she’s Jewish, she self-identifies as Jewish, so what’s the big deal. Let’s treat her as a Jew and if later a real Jewish man married this gentile woman, why sweat too much about it.”
Why don’t you try and get married through any Chabad Rabbi and see their very thorough process of Birur Yuchsin and Yahadus. I’ve heard from a Shliach that he has to turn away majority of couples looking for him to be Mesader Kiddushin due to lack of proof of their Yiddishkait. Why don’t you go and learn Hilchos Yuchsin like we do, instead of spewing your Motzi Shem Ra on the internet?
Joseph I asked you for a source you haven’t provided one. You talk about cavalier attitudes but you seem to have that attitude when siting sources. Why is it so hard for you to actually speak with a rabbi or to listen to the advice of gedolim? How you can call yourself frum is beyond me?
Furthermore, why do you assume that all nin frum Jews are ok with intermarrying? Many are not? Please read a book or study some history you sound very foolish
Mrs Joe, Have you heard of Eldad HaDoni, that came in times of Geonim with a wild (unbelievable) story that he is a Jew from the lost Shevet Dan on the other side of the Sambatyon River in mid-Africa (the river throws rocks all week long and only rests on shabbos – so no one can cross it). The Geonim paskened that if someone comes forward and identifies himself as a Jew and seems to have some mesorah of Judaism (Eldod had customs that were similar to Judaism), he is accepted as a Yid! When you come to a new city and enter a shul, do they include you as part of the minyan? Why? Why do they believe that YOU are a Jew (anyone can buy a $5 yarmalka), and then they even give you an Aliyah (gasp!0 – to a possible goy! And if you claim you are a Kohen, they will give you Kohen! WHY? Why do they not presume you are from the majority (rov), from the 70 nations?! And they will veven use you as Aidus for kiddushim! OMG! What’s happening? Because that is the halacha.
Haimy, kol sheposail be’mumoh posail. need i say more
Sechel: Chill out. Despite the name of this topic, not every comment is discussing Chabad. In fact, I believe all my comments on this thread were speaking generally and not of Chabad.
frumguy33: You’re going against Daas Torah. I’ve cited Rav Elyashiv. You’re giving us your boich svaras.
“As as I understand it , if someone comes to Chabad and is a zera yisroel, they urge them to convert (Plenty of poskim like Rav Ovadiah Yosef hold this position)”
The Rebbe’s policy bus Chabad don’t do Giurim. If someone wants to convert there are plenty of batei dinim they are refered to if persistent. In Chabad we don’t urge someone with a Jewish father to convert unless he decides to. Also, no Goyim come to Chabad House’s, unless it’s a specific case like a Jewish woman marries to a goy who will only come with her kids if the goy husband comes along. I’m surprised no one realizes that the Rebbe started the “mi hi Yehudi” campaign. In Chabad we are very careful in regards to Yichus, win regards to putting on Tefillin in the street the person is asked if his mother is Jewish. By the time someone comes to a Chabad house the Shliach will find out if there are any doubts on his Yichus by the first meeting. A giur is only encouraged if the person is a Baal Yeshiva already and there is a sefek in his Yichus. Kiddushin is an entirely different story, need kesubos, check kvarim, or giur lechumra.The frontier town discussion is an interesting one, since they are all different (Florida was once considered the same as the west). Mississippi is a state that’s preserved their history of the Jews in the state (at least in a book sense). I’ve read many stories of the wealthy businessmen sending their kids on long trips for various balls just so their kids can meet other Jews. Yet on the other hand, you’ll see a lot of counties and towns in the Deep South named after Jews who claimed to have converted.
I guess it depends on the person and city, as I have a hard time imagining the rich Jewish family marrying with the local sharecropper.
But, honestly, I think I’m going too far down the path, because there is a big difference between tracing someone from 1890 Utah and Ohio in 2010. I didn’t really mean to go this far back.I just wonder why some peoples pedigrees are good enough for even the simplest anti-Semite, but it’s never good enough for this board. Seems sad to be unwanted by everyone for either being Jewish or not pedigreed enough.
The intermarriage rate in the USA among Jews is over 60%; this includes Orthodox. Among the non Orthodox alone, the rate is over 70%. When you remove the Orthodox from the numbers, at least 35% of the non-Orthodox Jewish population are not Jewish since half are female. When factoring in other considerations, the proportions are much higher.
Mr. Rebbetzin: Completely incomparable. Here we’re talking about people whose families we know with certainty discarded the Torah and Judaism generations ago. There he didn’t discard the Torah and Judaism.
Furthermore, and this is a point contemporary Gedolei Poskim have made, traditionally throughout the vast majority of history few gentiles wanted to identify as Jewish. Jews were persecuted, prosecuted, expelled from countries, put in ghettos, pograms, Inquisition, Tach V’Tat, genocide, blood libels and holocausts. Thus if despite all that someone identified as Jewish, and he and his ancestors (per his testimony) practiced Torah Judaism, it was believable.
Today, the Poskim said, when there’s benefits to being recognized as Jewish rather than severe costs, self-identifying alone is wholly insufficient; especially considering that we know that we’re now dealing with almost 200 years of false conversions and so-called paternal descent.
Joseph I can site any rabbi I want but if I can’t tell you when he said something or what the circumstances of what he said what he said was it’s worthless. I’ve repeatedly asked you for context and you haven’t given any. When did he aledgely day or not say what your claiming he said. You can’t quote someone without confirming exactly what they said
The Rebbitzen is correct. I once walked into a shul in another country on my father’s yahretzeit and was immediately told that I was the shliach tzibbur — for maariv, shacharit, and mincha! I travel a lot and get aliyot in out of town shuls who have never seen me before.
“I’ve heard from a Shliach that he has to turn away majority of couples looking for him to be Mesader Kiddushin due to lack of proof of their Yiddishkait.”
This point should tell you so so much. Did you hear yourself say that? A MAJORITY of people that the kiruv workers deal with cannot even prove they are Jewish!
Do you realize how shocking this is?! A majority of these guys that are being “mekareved” may be outright goyim.
How can anyone wonder how the discussion in this thread is indeed a real issue and threat to Klal Yisroel?
You say that Chabad makes sure they don’t facilitate marriages with these questionable people; and that is to be congratulated. But, nevertheless, these potential non-Jews are hanging around in Orthodox Jewish circles (which is why they’re coming to a Chabad rabbi, in the first place, to try to get married), and even after the first rabbi says “no” they don’t give up. They try Rabbi B and Rabbi C until these goyim R”L marry a Yid under the pretense that they’re a Jew themselves. That is a frequent occurrence. And most of the time they may never be discovered. Then you’ll have their children thinking they’re Jewish and continue to intermarry with Jews.
Goyim have pretended to be Jews – even in times of Bais Hamikdosh. Remember the goy that boasted that he went to Yerushalayim and ate from the Korbon Pessach. The Tanna told him, try to get the “good part” from the fatty tail – that you won’t succeed. He tried next year and they quickly realized he is a goy (because tail and hind parts are ossur). Yes, goyim have “infiltrated” even the Bais Hamikdosh, there were no guards to check the yichus. They joined families – potential intermarriage! Is it any different today?!
“Do you realize how shocking this is?! A majority of these guys that are being “mekareved” may be outright goyim.”
Don’t put words in my mouth, I never said these people were previously associated with the particular Chabad House. Many unaffiliated Jews who never go to any Shul, when it comes to marriage, want a Jewish marriage, and call up their local rabbi, who they haven’t necessarily been to before. Shluchim deal with a very wide array of people, not just the 20 people who consistently show up to Shiurim and Minyanim.
I know most of you haven’t spent considerable time in Chabad Houses, but take it from me, as someone who spends considerable time at Chabad Houses on every continent.
Many of you are simply making ignorant assumptions as to the work of Shluchim, while in reality you have no idea of what Shluchim do nor what Shlichus is all about.All it takes for one to contact a Shliach asking him to officiate his wedding is a quick Google search, for example “rabbi Mississippi” or wherever. There are also many Shluchim who don’t have local communities larger than severt dozen individuals, and are dealing with tourists, many of whom are travelling to these exotic locations to have a “destination wedding”, and ask the local Shliach to officiate.
Sechel: You realize Joseph wasn’t talking about Chabad? You realize he’s one of the few people here who has almost never criticized Chabad? It’s actually almost kind of suspicious…
Mrs J wrote:
“Furthermore, and this is a point contemporary Gedolei Poskim have made, traditionally throughout the vast majority of history few gentiles wanted to identify as Jewish. Jews were persecuted, prosecuted, expelled from countries, put in ghettos, pograms, Inquisition, Tach V’Tat, genocide, blood libels and holocausts. Thus if despite all that someone identified as Jewish, and he and his ancestors (per his testimony) practiced Torah Judaism, it was believable.Today, the Poskim said, when there’s benefits to being recognized as Jewish rather than severe costs, self-identifying alone is wholly insufficient; especially considering that we know that we’re now dealing with almost 200 years of false conversions and so-called paternal descent.”
Yes, the old days were bad for Jews – ghettos, pogroms, Inquisition, Crusades…not like the good times of World War II, the love we get in Europe, the warmth from Muslim States in Middle East and Far East, the Far Right Groups and Far Left Groups, the Democratic Senators…ah, these days, everyone wants to be a Jew!
Are you serious?! Do you live in a cave?!
Every goy in Lakewood wants to join BMG!? (To get support by a rich shver!)
Every goy in New Square is trying to buy a shtreimel! (The fashion statement – dressing like a Polish nobleman of centuries ago – is so cool!)
They want the “benefits” of being recognized as a Jew! Kishke! Kaporos (unless you are PETA) Matzos! Coffee Room!! Tuitions! Shidduch crisis! Getting into seminary! Being Jewish is so great!!!! Every goy wants to sign up!!!
Really?!
charliehall – you walked into a shul in another country and they made you shaliach tzibur. That’s nothing! They could have made you their rov, their shoichet, their mohel and their chevra kadisha! You got ripped off by only being appointed chazon.
“They want the “benefits” of being recognized as a Jew! Kishke! Kaporos (unless you are PETA) Matzos! Coffee Room!! Tuitions! Shidduch crisis! Getting into seminary! Being Jewish is so great!!!! Every goy wants to sign up!!!”
Maybe that’s who started this thread. I mean he still didnt prove he Is jewish. כל הפוסל…
“Another problem going on is with mohelim who specialize in doing brissim for freia people but don’t verify that the child is a Jew. The child assumes he’s Jewish since he had a rabbi do his bris so he goes & marries a Jewish girl.”
Chabad Mohelim make sure to verify. I personally know a prominent Chabad Mohel who declined to do the bris of a the child of a very famous and wealthy couple where the wife was a Giyores of a frum Beis Din, because a concerns about the Kabolas HaMitzvos, or the lack of it. I won’t write the last name, as not to make a Chilul Hashem, because the internet is forever…
” I asked one such Michel what he does about making a brocha on the milah, he said safek brochos lehakel, he doesn’t say the shem Hashem.”
Reminds me of a story with a certain prominent non Lubavitcher Rov, who after the Rebbe Zy”a came out with a shturem regarding “Mihu Yehudi”, and the concern of Goyim in Eretz Yisroel being considered Jews under the Law of Return, where the Rebbe insisted that the word “Kehalacha” be added to the law, this Rov told a certain Lubavitcher Rov who told me this story, that the Lubavitcher Rebbe has done an amazing thing for Klal Yisrael, and illustrated with the following anecdote: “Once, I was being Mesader Kiddushin, and under the Chuppa I discovered that the Chosson was not in fact a Yid, and I was saved from making a Bracha Levatala R”L… This is why the Rebbes campaign is so important…”
Charlie.
1. If it was a Sephardic/Chassidic shul you should have agreed to say “yatzzmach porkenei” and afterwards told them that your intention was “lo yatzmach porkenai”.
2. There was a case in Jerusalem, when Ashkenazic cohanim also duchan every day, where someone suddenly stopped after 25 years. He explained that when he made aliya there was a storm at sea and he made a neder that if Hashem would bring him to EY safely he would be a cohen for 35 years. In Persia many Jews made themselves cohanim because priests of any religion were exempt from the draft. So what do we do about pidyon haben?
3. Mi shenitma nitma. No one knows what happened in his ancestry ages ago.“I personally know a prominent Chabad Mohel who declined to do the bris of a the child of a very famous and wealthy couple where the wife was a Giyores of a frum Beis Din, because a concerns about the Kabolas HaMitzvos, or the lack of it.”
Another excellent point drawing attention to another example of goyim R”L mixing into Klal Yisroel. Even purported “geirim” of so-called “Orthodox” beit dins are often fake converts.
This, too, is very common.
“regarding “Mihu Yehudi”, and the concern of Goyim in Eretz Yisroel being considered Jews under the Law of Return”
And yet another example of goyim pretending to be Jews. This time in Eretz Yisroel. And literally numbering in the hundreds of thousands when considering the fake conversions the Israeli rabbanut recognizes among the Russian gentiles in the state.
“Once, I was being Mesader Kiddushin, and under the Chuppa I discovered that the Chosson was not in fact a Yid, and I was saved from making a Bracha Levatala R”L…”
Another all-too-common scenario. More often than not it isn’t stopped in time and remains unrecognized r”l.
See Ulla’s response to Rav Yehuda on Kiddushin 71b.
Haimy
“Thank you Chossid for clarifying Chabad’ s protocol. I saw no mention of a screening process on the website to apply. I’m happy to learn that Chabad does screen every participant as you said.”
I think you should asking public for any an apology, making up facts.But if you really care why don’t you go out there and pervert intermarriage, instead of making up stories?
“There’s a large community of children of Jewish father’s with a non Jewish mother in the US. These people are highly insulted when people question their Jewishness. There are also many many reform & conservative converts in the US. Together, we have many non Jews who consider themselves to be Jewish. We need to be careful treating anyone who says their Jewish but doesn’t practice anything to be considered of Jewish ancestry.
I know I’m going against many people with a vested interest to shove this under the rug but this is a valid concern.”I agree with you, and it’s a big concern, and that’s why we take it seriously. And I think you should join, if you’re so considered.
In answer to “Rebbetzin Goldenpick…”:
1. Everyone knows that many baalei tseuvah aren’t Jewish (or more likely, aren’t sure they are Jewish). The line between “Baal Tseuvah” and potential Ger Tzedek will be increasingly fuzzy. The eventual solution will end up being to ask any (and all) Baalei Tseuvah to “convert” to resolve the safek. This is “old news” since among the non-orthodox Jews in the English-speaking countries who had been in their current homes since the mid-19th cenury, the process of assimimlation is already over 200 years old and these problems have been arising for some time. It was an issue among the pre-war (pre-quotas) East European immigrants by the late 20th century, and should now be an issue among post-World War II arrivals. Like it or not, most Jews have been non-frum since the 18th century, and non-frum Jews frequently marry goyim.
2. The majority opinion is that a non-Jewish wedding ceremony (presided over by a judge or a minister), or a common law marriage (whether or not recognized by the government), or a “Reform” wedding, when it is obvious the parties have no intention of being married according to Jewish law, does NOT create a Jewish marriage and therefore subsequent children that the woman has by some other man ARE NOT MAMZERIM. If you hold that two non-religious Jews “living together” constitutes a valid halachic marriage, then at this point in time most non-religious Jews are probably at least safek mamzerim, however it appears that most poskim do not hold this way but rather will invalidate a marriage based on such evidence as treff food at the wedding or the bride not going to mikva or hillus Shabbos (all indicative of lack of intent by the parties to be married “K’daas Moshe ve-Yisrael”).
3. Increasingly most non-Jews we encounter will have some Jewish ancestry. This reduces the chance of a Hitler-like persecution based on ancestry. It also raises a real shailoh about use of a Shabbos-goy or selling matza to a goy on Pesach.
Quote “It would be much better if they hadn’t had a kosher wedding & wouldn’t have been married according to halacha. Then they wouldn’t need a get later”
???
Haimy I’m very pleased to hear that you go out there to deal with the problem. Kol hakavod
“after learning with a college boy for 3 years, he went on to Ohr Sameiach & joined a kollel, Both his parents were Jewish.”
Wonderful thing and big zechus.
But how do you know that his parents are Jewish?
Maybe somewhere up the line there was an intermarriage? No? Isn’t there such a big percentage of that?
אלא מאי you looked into it (hopefully).
So why do you assume that chabad doesn’t?The Chanukah parties are for the Jews that the shluchim are in touch with, not the non jews. (If there’s a non-jew who pops up occasionally, we take the right steps to take care of it.
“This problem is only getting worse & we would be foolish to think it doesn’t exist.”
Who said it doesn’t exist? One of the reasons the Rebbe sent shluchim is for exactly this reason, he said “there’s a fire burning in the world and we have to save them from assimilation”. I’m glad you guys picked up on it.
But why don’t you look at the positive side, how many people have saved from intomarriage, on an day to day basis?And regarding your last concern, if there is a non religious Jew that what’s to get married according to halocha, and wants an orthodox Rabbi to officiate, A. That means he is sincere regarding the marriage, and he will do the divorce according to halocha, and B. The shliach teachers all the laws regarding marriage and tells them that if you want to get a divorce you have to do so according to halocha. That simple.
And besides the point no non religious Jews want an Orthodox Rabbi to officiate their wedding, and if they do, that means they know the Rabbi for a nice amount of time, and the Rabbi will make sure everything is done properly.
If your concern should be also regarding frum community, there are so many stories when husband does want to get to get to his wife and that could lead to big problems. (Obviously the concern is not exactly on the same level, but you got the point.)Joseph wrote : ” when there’s benefits to being recognized as Jewish rather than severe costs, self-identifying alone is wholly insufficient;.” Claiming that these days goyim benefit to be recognized as Jewish.
When did these days of Jewish benefits begin?
During World War II when 6 million were slaughtered?
The benefits we get today in Europe – all the love from the various nations?
The benefits of being a Jew in Muslim States in Middle East or Far East Asian countries?
Or in the Ukraine, Poland, Russia?
Or the benefits and warmth Jews get from, the Extreme Right Nationalistic Groups in America?
Or the Radical Left Groups, the BDS groups, the Libetrals, and the “loving” new Democratic Senators in USA?
These days, everyone wants to be a Jew?!
Do you live in a cave?!
Every goy in New Jersey wants to join BMG!? (To get the benefits of support by a rich shver!)
Every goy in New Square is trying to buy a shtreimel! (The fashion statement – dressing like a Polish nobleman of centuries ago – is so cool!)
How silly is it to think that goyim today want the “benefits” of being recognized as a Jew!
Benefits:
Kishke!
Kaporos (unless you are PETA)
Matzos at $20/lb!
Coffee Room!!
Yeshiva and School Tuitions!
Shidduch crisis!
Getting into seminary!Being Jewish is so great!!!!
Every goy wants to sign up!!!
Really?!
No Joseph, you have it wrong. Every goy wants the benefits of being Chabad!!!
Goyim know that Chabad is non-stop party. You get cake before da=vening, don’t need to shave (ever!) and believe that your leader is moshiach.
Now I get it. I wondered why this thread is directed at Chabad (and not the many kiruv orgs)??? Because only at Chabad do goyim want to sign up!!!
Someone wrote earlier that Chabad “accepts” even unconfirmed Jews because they need to keep having “customers: to do kiruv with.
Well, don’t worry, when they run out of non-religious Jews to be mikarev, and when they finish teaching all the goyim the Seven Noach Laws, they will start with the Litvaks to teach them about the issur of shaving and how to properly do Chazoras HaShatz at Mincha (without a hoicha kedusha).
Who checks the yichus of each bochur in Lakewood and Ponevitch to make sure his grandparents are true Yidden?! Do the Rosh Yeshivas go back a few generations on the maternal side to make sure this talmid is a Yid? Who does this?!
What about mamzerim? If the grandparents remarried without a proper get, if there was an agunah that remarried (very common in pre-war days) without a hetter that we all accept, do you realize the michshol in shidduchim??
There might be 20-60% goyim or mamzerim learning in Bnei Brak! GEVALD!
The Godol Hador was asked this question, if tgere is a need to do what Ezra did by identifying yichus of everyone (see Perelman Asara Yuchsin)? He answered that Ezra did not do it while the Yidden were in Bavel. Only when they were immigrating to Eretz Yisroel – only then did Ezra do so. You see, the problems we have of our Nation being contaminated by goyim or mamzerim is an ancient problem that yidden had even after a mere 70 years of golus Bavel. Yet while in golus Bavel kiruv was done, brissim were made and Rabbonim were messader kiddushin without concern of brocha lvatalah. Think about it.
Rebbetzin et. al.,
1. Did you look up my reference to Kiddushin 71b? You can go on Sefaria, press “A” and get an English translation. Due to widespread aveirot during the First Temple period and the fact that mamzerut is forever we cannot know who today is a mamzer and who is not. Statistically today we might all be. Argumentative people (except cohanim) are especially suspect.
2. Actually just about all mamzerim can be freed of the stain if enough digging is done. For example, a witness who regularly does an aveira (tax evasion, smoking) is disqualified. Rav Moshe once annulled a first marriage after his investigators discovered that the bride had been undergoing psychiatric treatment and had the din of a shottah.
3. Were the Jews in Bavel considered Yidden being that they did not speak Yiddish?
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