Chabad? Most non religious Jews are not halachikly Jewish.

Please cite some statistics to back up your claim that “most non religious Jews in the US are actually non Jews.”

The Wolf

Chossid; you wrote, “the fact is, only Jews are allowed to be in the program.” THAT is exactly the issue: how do the program directors know who is Jewish? Do they ask each participating teen if they are indeed Jewish? Is that how it works in halacha? I seriously doubt that the program directors convene a beis din to pasken on each participant? If one of these kids become frum, would you let your own son or daughter marry them — just because they say they’re Jewish?
The OP’s question is totally legitimate.

While I challenge your assumptions, as properly expressed by ZD and Wolf, you do pose a valid question. There may be cases in which the halachic Jewish ancestry is problematic. Knowing many shluchim and those who go on mivtza’im, I do not see any verification or investigation being done. I have no clue what the numbers might be, but it is something that should be explored.

Now, let’s assume there is a halachic non-Jew here. Is there an issur involved in putting him on tefillin? I doubt that. Anything wrong with providing this individual with Shabbos candles? Another doubt. Intermarriage – that is a great question. This question is relevant to the large population of Baalei Teshuvah and not specific in any way to Chabad.

“the fact that most non religious Jews in the US are actually non Jews because their mother was a non Jew”

Fact? Most?

Source, please?

“As as I understand it , if someone comes to Chabad and is a zera yisroel, they urge them to convert”
This is not the position taken by Chabad. I don’t fully understand the OP, though. If Chabad feeds say 25 people for Shabbos, what difference does it make if 10 of them are goyim? What exactly is there to “deal with?”

We can quibble whether it is above or below 50%, but it is clearly a huge percentage.

Increasingly a large percentage of non-frum people with Jewish names are goyim, and many persons with non-Jewish names are Jews. In America, most Jews have not had a frum ancestor for over a century, and unless they are “into” genealogy they have no way to determine if they are actually Jews. Intermarriage has been a major factor in western countries since the early 19th century. This means a movement doing “kiruv” has to understand that someone with a Jewish surname who claims Jewish ancestry probably is goy, and a someone with a non-Jewish name who says they have Jewish ancestors quite possibly is Jewish. The only exception are people whose families went “off the derekh” recently, meaning their halachic status is easy to determine. — This is also an interesting problem if you want to use a Shabbos Goy — On the bright side, if you hold than a non-frum marriage ceremony among Jews creates a valid marriage ( a problem since virtually no non-frum Jews bother with a “get”), meaning children born outside the initial marriage are mamzerim, the fact the non-frum Jews are increasingly goyim, means they probably should be seen as being “safek goy, safek mamzerim” (cf. Ethiopian Jews) which resolves the problem. One should also note that conversion of a person who becomes frum only to realize they aren’t Jewish is NOT a major problem (they already are Shomer Mitsvos) and avoids having to worry about the intimate behavior of long dead ancestors,.

“the fact the non-frum Jews are increasingly goyim, means they probably should be seen as being “safek goy, safek mamzerim” (cf. Ethiopian Jews) which resolves the problem.”

This does NOT resolve the problem. Because since he’s a safek mamzer, that means he’s by definition a Jew. And a safek mamzer is a much bigger problem than a safek goy.

The question posed doesn’t actually make sense. Non religious Jews would by definition be Jewish.

When I approach someone on the street, or wherever, and ask if he’d like to put on Tefilin, first I ask: “Excuse me, are you Jewish by any chance?” Most people say no. Most Jews ignore me. Of the Jews that don’t ignore me, most don’t want to put on Tefilin. When someone says they’d like to put on Tefilin, and they say they’re Jewish, there’s no reason to assume otherwise. It’s not Siddur Kiddushin. Occasionally, I will ask someone which of their parents was Jewish, as not to give away the “correct” answer.

When we get someone involved in our Chabad Houses and communities, we almost always know whether they’re legitimately Jewish or not. Their Bubby’s and Zaides were often Frum or traditional. When admitting a child into our Hebrew School, Chabad HQ (Merkos) policy is that they must be verified as Jewish. When being Mesader Kiddushin we do a proper Birur Yahadus, often through a competent Rov or Bais Din.

In short, Haimy, you don’t know much about Chabad or non religious Jews, so please educate yourself before being Motzi Shem Ra on others.

“I read the brochure inviting all Jewish teens to attend which didn’t mention anything about a Jewish mother. Even if 25% were non Jews is that ok?”

Why wouldn’t it be? If they advertised: “only students with Jewish mothers allowed!” they would get almost nobody. Use your common sense. They aren’t mekareving everyone who shows up to a mass event on the spot. They’ll get the answer before they zoom in on individuals who have real potential.

Haimy where exactly to you get your facts from?
Or your just interested in hate.
Why is your question to Chabad a not all kiruv organizations?

I work in the teen program and each teen that comes to the shabbaton, was in the teen program for at least a year, and no rabbi is interested in putting so much effort in a goiy, and any time we a approach someone for tefillin, we ask if his mothers mother was Jewish, and before we marry them the rabbonim do a thorough research in there yichus, check their grandparents kvura, and many other things.
One of the rules chabad has is, that we won’t even “bar mitzvah” someone that his not Jewish, or someone that didn’t have an Orthodox conversion, because that might lead to a different rabbi marring him off, and using some “rayeh” that he had a orthodox rabbi by his bar mitzvah, (even though it’s not a rayeh.)
Every chabad house rabbi knows exactly who is Jews and who is not in his Chabad house, no one is interested in putting thousands of dollars into someone to grew in his Judaism, if he is not Jewish.
On side note I know of a shliach that didn’t accept $200,000 at least, from someone to build his Chabad house, because he was not Jewish and he wanted his name on the building.
So get your facts straight.

ZionGate
Cool , interesting.
But I don’t really get it.
If it’s true it’s a real chutzpah, and it’s complete hatred.
But either way you should work in the FBI, or special council committee.

Why is this any different than any Hillel house in a school why is only Chabad the issue here.
If they don’t make the event all the Jewish ones are missing out they might become frum , if someone comes and is Jewish and meets a half Jew ( non Jew) and marries him or her chances are he would have met a non Jew without joining the event. On the other if someone who is half Jewish decides to become frum chances are his new Jewish community will inform him he is not Jewish if his mom is not Jewish.
What will almost certainly happen is that a few real Jews might hear their first kiddush , a few might keep their only shbs or perhaps their first. Their first devar torah
Much more to gain here than to loose.
I think people who have only one Jewish parent ussually say so early in conversation they don’t even realize it’s an issue so they announce it. Therefore Chabad or whomever can proceed perhaps at the retreat they will learn they are not really Jewish and save others from marrying them.
Millennials as think look now are probably the last generation that one can assume that chances are thar both parents are Jewish. ( maybe 80% , 20% or 70 %, 30 not 50 50
Out of those who don’t have both parents been Jewish a good percentage it is their mom who is Jewish )
that’s not an official statistic but what my experience is making me believe

Justme,
1. How high is a “good percentage”?
2. There is an inyan according to Kabbala to bring back the non-Jewish descendants of Jews who intermarried. I myself have a friend who went to a BT yeshiva, found out that he was doubtfully Jewish (his maternal grandmother “converted” but did not recall going to the mikva). He went through a giur l’chumra and is now fully observant.

I know of someone who had gone through Yeshiva and was a goy. He quickly converted.

Haiku, you and anyone that agrees with you is an idiot. How do we know that you aren’t part of the eruv rav?? I think you likely are, because Jews are usually intelligent and you aren’t .

Firstly your stat that most Jews intermarried is wrong. Most Jews intermarry today, in 2019 that was not the case 100 hundred years ago, or even 50 years ago.

Secondly you focus on Chabad while ignoring every other outreach group there is .

Thirdly the answer is quite simple, they ask. Specifically they if your moms mom was Jewish. Considering the fact that in my case , my grandmother was referred to as Bubbie, spoke Yiddish, came from a shtetl in Europe and was elated when I went to yeshiva. I’m pretty sure of my yichoos.

With younger bts today, I doubt there was a vast uptick in the conversions to judasim during the holocaust.

Do some research instead of spending all your time in the coffee room spreading lies about klal Yisrael. It’s people like you that caused the golden calf. Shame on you’nnn

Joseph your comment is silly. That rationale can apply for anyone regardless of your yichoos. You have to look at why someone thinks that. If you have a guy whose family has lived in an area traditionally devoid of Jews for several generations and he says his grandmother is Jewish, that isn’t the same as someone who traces his lineage to an area full of Jews. You all seem to forget people weren’t looking to convert or pretending to be Jewish 40-50 years ago. My original comment still stands. There are many so called Phrum (phony + frum) Jews today who we will find out are descendants of the eruv rav including likely some of the people who posted on this thread

Joseph no we didn’t. Do you have a scintilla of evidence to support your statement? You sound like the antisemites who claim ashkenazi Jews aren’t real Jews.

Joseph that is not true . Do you have a scintilla of evidence from a reputable source? Assuming you are correct, why wouldn’t the gedolim speak about this ? Further how are you any different then the antisemites who say all ashkenazi Jews aren’t real Jews, or the black Hebrews who say they are the real Jews. Further if you are so Jewish why are you spending your time in a coffee room online when the gedolim have spoken out about spending such time in such places??

If someone knows the ancestors back to a time when they were frum, yichus isn’t a problem. But for Jews arrived before the Civil War, meaning we are talking about 8-12 generations, it is a serious problem. Intermarriage was very high especially along the “frontier” (Chicago, Denver, Texas, etc.)

The question really should be “what is the alternative”? Your choices are

1. Don’t make any programs for non-frum Jews so we do not run the risk of engaging goyim in kiruv
2. Do extensive background checks to ensure everyone in your program is halachicly Jewish.
3. Have a “liberal” open policy and try to bring in as many Jews as possible. If at some point you realize someone is not halachicly Jewish then you work from there.

Answer # 1 is the same as giving up on your Jewish brethren
Answer # 2 is very impractical and will do more harm than good
Answer # 3 seems like the only way.

Let’s say there was a cattle car of Jews going to Auschwitz every day and you could save the entire group (with some risk) although not everyone is a halachic Jew, would you do it?

Aish Hatorah? Or Sameach? Gateways? Project Inspire? Most non religious Jews are not halachikly Jewish.

Why point a finger at Chabad, as if they are the only ones that do kiruv, when the exact question can be directed at ALL the MANY wonderful kiruv organizations both in USA and Internationally!

If “Most non religious Jews are not halachikly Jewish” then we ALL have a problem with ALL kiruv organizations!!!

In fact, let’s go a step further:

Who checks the yichus of each bochur in Lakewood and Ponevitch to make sure his grandparents are true Yidden?! Do the Rosh Yeshivas go back a few generations on the maternal side to make sure this talmid is a Yid? Who does this?!

What about mamzerim? If the grandparents remarried without a proper get, if there was an agunah that remarried (very common in pre-war days) without a hetter that we all accept, do you realize the michshol in shidduchim??

There might be 20-60% goyim or mamzerim learning in Bnei Brak! GEVALD!