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In one such essay he discusses the Akeidah and the author said that the Akeidah was the only real test that Abraham faced because the other nine were just acts of Chesed which matched his good nature. Number one that’s absolutely false.
Qwerty,
I said this before, and I’ll say it again. It’s okay to be ignorant, but the arrogance of ignorance is unacceptable. Why do you spend so much time reading Lubavitch books in order to misunderstand and attack them, instead of using that time to educate yourself so that your questions go away?
Now, let me explain what you read in Rabbi Posner’s book:
After the tenth test of the Akeida, Hashem said עתה ידעתי כי ירא אלקים אתה – “NOW I know that your fear Hashem.”
The obvious question is, why only now? Wasn’t Avraham tested nine times before?
Moreover: The Gemara says (and it’s brought in Rashi), why did Hashem tell Avraham קח נא – “PLEASE take your son”? Because if Avraham would fail this test, people would say about the first tests לא הי’ בהן ממש – “they had no substance.”
Why would the first tests be worthless just because Avraham didn’t pass the last one?
One of the answers given is that since Avraham’s nature was מדת החסד, it would SEEM that he only passed the first tests because they fit with his nature. However, by passing the tenth test (which went against the מדת החסד), it became clear that he passed all of the tests only for the sake of Hashem.
This is explained in many places, including by the Rebbe (לקו”ש ח”ב ע’ 378 ועוד בכ”מ), the Rebbe Rayatz (סה”מ קונטרסים ח”ב ע’ 642), Tanya (אגה”ק סי’ יג), etc., all based on a Zohar.
Oh, and the Vilna Gaon (not quite a Lubavitcher) also writes something similar (ספד”צ פ”ג ד”ה וענין שמא
).Number two in their religion no one is shown any respect except the seven Rebbe’s
I’m not sure if this is a random attack (in which case there’s no need to answer) or a continuation to the beginning of your post. I will assume the latter.
Anyone familiar with Chabad chassidus, and even more so with the Rebbe’s sichos, know the major levels or respect and veneration for Avraham Avinu, and the aforementioned vort only increases Avraham’s greatness; its point is to prove how Avraham’s avoda was completely selfless.On Sukkas they honor the Rebbe’s as the actual Ushpizin.
Every night of Sukkos, the Rebbe would say a sicha about that night’s ushpiza according to the Zohar (Avraham, Yitzchak, Yaakov, etc.), and lesson that can be learned from his avoda.
The Rebbe Rayatz said that in addition to those ushpizin, there are also other Ushpizin. Here is a loose translation of the Rebbe Rayatz’s sicha from the first night of Sukkos 5697 (סה”ש תרצ”ז ע’ 197):
“In 5654, in the Sukkah, my father the Rebbe [Rashab] said: By us there are also ushpizin, the Baal Shem Tov, the Maggid [of Mezritch], etc. This means that the first day is Avraham and all those who come with him with the Baal Shem Tov; the second day is Yitzchak etc. with the Maggid, etc.”@qwerty
Lubavichers regularly “prove” that the Rebbe was a Novi by saying he made correct predictions.
[qwerty]
——————
If that is the case, then it logically should follow that he is hayav mitah as navi sheker.
A navi , in order to be accepted as navi, has to undergo a test, where the only acceptable success rate is 100 % .
A 99% return is considered as failure, As this indicates that God did not speak to him and therefore is a Navi Sheker and liable of mitah bebet din.
[Cf rambam hil yesodei torah towards the end]Their rebbi predicted that NO ONE will be hurt in EY during the First Gulf War.
fact of the matter is that people were wounded and one person DIED as a direct result of missile impact.Rambam states clearly – if only one minor detail does not eventuate as predicted , siman that he is a navi sheker.
So , I would say , He did not mean it as a clear prediction and as an ultimate test for halahic qualification for nevua level.It was meant as a hope ,as encouragement ,as a braha and as a limud zhut.
Thats the beginning and the end of his so called “halahic nevua status”.@lostspark
I would venture to say to you the following –Concentrate less on the personalities of qwerty and/or berger and instead more on the substance of what they say.
I couldn’t care whether Berger is a Dr, an astronaut, a garbage collector or a rabbi.
If he talks emet , to the point, I listen.
sechel, there are meforshim that our great Rabbis wrote on the pesukim in Tanach, chazal, gemorah, etc, etc. that helps us understand things that would be hard to understand. It is Lubavitche like you who twist everything out of context. For example when Rashi says that Yaacov avinu did not die there are numerous mefarshim that explain what it means. There is no mefoiresh saying that he is here with us physically. And yet i heard a Chabad rabbi claim that Rashi said that Yaacov is with us physically; that is a lie. When chabad “rabbis” claim that the Rebbe is here with us physically and that he runs the world you know good and well that they mean it absolutely literally. In fact, everything they “teach” revolves around “proving” that the “rebbe is alive” and that “he can’t make mistakes” and that he’s everywhere” and that “he runs the world” and other such a”z teachings. And you know as well as everybody else that these “rabbis” mean it absolutely literally.
qwerty > Let me complete my thought from above. Since Lubavitchers are pathological liars they assume that everyone is like them.
again, please limit your thoughts to specific people guilty of something. It is just not OK to talk like that about a group of Yidden that includes kosher ones.
Also, stretching it, you can judge l’tzad schus: do you expect someone who barely handles English to be able to have a serious judgment on someone who wrote books in comprehensive English? So, his opinion is 2nd hand and it is simply bad manners, not malice.
Hello?
@Always ask
Similarly, is Chaim Volozhiner responsible for modern excesses of your local yeshiva?
=================
Why can’t you write R Chaim Volozhiner ???David Berger is no מאן דאמר because he only knows half the story-he knows a lot about Christian theology (which is probably ossur anyways) but nothing about Toras Ha’Chassidus. He has no insight into any of texts and attitudes he criticizes and the same applies to most of the arrogantly ignorant people ragging on Chabad in this thread.
To Menachem Shmei
I’d like to offer another response to your latest post. I challenged the Rebbe because he rejected the Gemara which says that there is no longer Nevuah. You answer by arguing that many Gemaras are wrong. As an example the Gemara said that after Rebbe’s death humility ended. Therefore you posit that the Rebbe is justified in rejecting the Gemara regarding Nevuah. When the Gemara said that humility ended it means Rebbe’s level of humility. You know that, but you need to defend your dead god.
EchadHaemes, please state a source that says knowing Christian theology is assured. Many great Rabbis knew Christian theology. I’m not saying it’s for everyone to learn, some people get easily swayed by arguments even if those arguments are illogical. Many frum people like myself who know Christian history and theology well see the path Chabad is heading on with their belief in the Rebbe as moshiach and his divine powers eerily similar to Christianity. If Berger knows Christian history and theology then it is understandable that he sees the danger in the Chabad ideology of belief in the rebbe as Moshiach and having divine powers being that it is so similar to Christianity.
when Rashi says that Yaacov avinu did not die there are numerous mefarshim that explain what it means. There is no mefoiresh saying that he is here with us physically. And yet i heard a Chabad rabbi claim that Rashi said that Yaacov is with us physically; that is a lie.
I guess it’s not just Qwerty who is arrogant about his ignorance.
Rashi (Taanos 5b) explains יעקב לא מת literally.
והאי דחנטו חנטיא סבורים היו שמת – they embalmed him because they THOUGHT he was dead.
נדמה להם שהוא מת אבל חי היה – it SEEMED to them that he was dead, but he was alive.Maharsha and others ARGUE on this pirush, and explain that his body did die.
This is the classic understanding of their argument, not unique to Chabad. Check any Artscroll.
I challenged the Rebbe because he rejected the Gemara which says that there is no longer Nevuah. You answer by arguing that many Gemaras are wrong.
Chas v’shalom!
My point was that “Many Gemaras are wrong” – according to YOUR logic!
(Anyone with a small amount of comprehension can grasp what I meant)When the Gemara said that humility ended it means Rebbe’s level of humility. You know that, but you need to defend your
Finally, you have demonstrated that just because someone says something that seems to contradict a Gemara (such as “so-and-so is an anav” or “so-and-so is a novi”) that doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s an apikores, rather more study is needed.
I challenged the Rebbe because he rejected the Gemara which says that there is no longer Nevuah.
the rambam writes in igeres taiman that he has a mesorah from his father nevuah will return (i forgot the exact year but) around the year 5000, a little before.
ruach hakodesh is a level in nevuah see shaar hanevuahlet me ask you a simple question? do you accept everything it says in gemarah? medrashim? zohar?
do you accept rishonim? achronim? till which achron?
another question why or why not do you accpet them?“One of the answers given is that since Avraham’s nature was מדת החסד, it would SEEM that he only passed the first tests because they fit with his nature“
Kicking out הגר & ישמעאל is hardly חסד
On a side note I want to add a caveat
Yidden have something called a גורל הגר״א where (if you know what you’re doing) you open a Chumash and do whatever the passuk says
Lubavitchers have their own “Chumash” called “the rebbe’s sichos” (which is why it’s probably quoted a lot over here) and they write a letter to the rebbe and place it in the book and do whatever it says
I’m going to say it (and the lubavitchers here won’t even address my post because of it)
I wonder if the נוצרים do that with their book too 🤔
To the group
My parents were American born, so I only picked up Yiddish as an adult. There’s an expression, “Kliger Amalek” that applies to Menachem Shmei. He has a facility for trying to use my words against me, that’s the Kliger part. So if I admit to certain deficiencies he argues that this Posuls my posts. Ramban, in the introduction to his work, stated that what he knows about the Torah compared to the actual depth and breadth of the subject is like the egg of a gnat compared to the Universe(I’m quoting from memory so I might be wrong in a word or two.) So according to Shmei no one should study this work because of his “ignorance.” In fact Ramban’s admission is complete intellectual honesty and humility and this is precisely why we should accept his teachings. So now the sleazebag Shmei is licking his chops, “Do you see qwerty comparing himself to Ramban?” Obviously I’m not in his stratosphere, but that doesn’t mean I can’t try to emulate the Rishon’s Middah of Emes and to that point I readily acknowledge that I’m far from a Talmid Chacham. So how can I challenge the Rebbe who was a Gaon Olam? Because he was a liar as has been proven.
With this preamble let’s get to the main subject. In high school geometry we were introduced to axioms, postulates and theorems, the building blocks of the discipline. They are inviolate and so a triangle, for example, is always 180 degrees(now Shmei will think of some idiotic comment mocking the subject.) Similarly, but L’Havdil, there is one overriding, sacrosanct unalterable concept in Judaism, “Hashem Echad and nothing has any power other than Him.” This is Judaism 1.0 and it’s been universally accepted by believing Jews throughout the ages. Until our times when a sect of renegade(Mumar) Jews decided that this principle is no longer true. So we have Seichel who openly posits that there’s a tripartite god encompassing Hashem, Yaakov and the Rebbe. Then we have the primordial snake, Shmei. He never reveals what he thinks because he’s too smart to play his hand. Instead, he works both sides of the fence. Cunin declares that the Rebbe runs the world so Shmei says that he didn’t openly declare that he does so instead of Hashem. Right. So does that mean that he and the Rebbe are partners as the Rabbi in my Chabad shul said? Again he won’t answer. Will Shmei definitively state that he believes in the Borei Olam and in no one or thing else. Again he won’t answer. So his opinions remain nebulous. This, as I stated a week ago, is the hallmark of Amalek and so Shmei should be removed from the site.
To always
All I said is that Rabbi Pozner downplayed Avraham Avinu’s greatness by writing in his book that the Akeidah was our Founder’s only true test which is obviously false. Leaving his homeland and sending away Yishmael were examples of Avraham going against his Middah of Chesed. As for your statement that I’m maligning the entire sect. I agree with you that many, probably most Lubavichers are wonderful people and don’t share the idolatrous views of the Three Stooges in this thread, but the absolute refusal of anyone in the Chabad power structure to clearly state that it’s Hashem and only Hashem who runs the world give the entire movement the Chazakah of idolatry. They all know what Cunin said, but they won’t censor him . Are you so blind that you can’t understand this?
there is one overriding, sacrosanct unalterable concept in Judaism, “Hashem Echad and nothing has any power other than Him.” This is Judaism 1.0 and it’s been universally accepted by believing Jews throughout the ages.
Of course, especially if one learns chassidus which focuses so much on Achdus Hashem.
However, that doesn’t mean that there lack statements throughout Torah that may confuse someone who doesn’t know how to learn. Think about all the statements that I’ve referenced earlier.
Or when it says that anyone who says Vayechulu on Shabbos becomes a שותף במעשה בראשית. According to your logic this is literally שיתוף ch”v.
Or that one must honor one’s parents because שלשה שותפין באדם הקב”ה אביו ואמו – according to you this is trinity ch”v!Qwerty, I know that now you’ll start giving excuses and explanations of what these statements REALLY mean, but that is pointless. I’m not ch”v saying that these statements are AZ. I’m saying that it’s childish to close your ears and scream every time you hear something that you misunderstand to be wrong.
All I said is that Rabbi Pozner downplayed Avraham Avinu’s greatness by writing in his book that the Akeidah was our Founder’s only true test which is obviously false.
This is literally in Rashi on chumash (as I explained at length)! It’s not ch”v downplaying Avraham’s greatness, on the contrary, it says that after the akeida any doubts that could have risen about Avraham’s loyalty were cleared.
Anyone who learns chassidus and especially the Rebbe’s sichos can attest to the tremendous admiration given for Avraham’s greatness.
It’s absurd how much effort you put into misreading Chabad divrei Torah to interpret them in a negative way.
@yankel berel
if you open a chumash you will see that moshe rabainu told the jews we are going into eretz yisroel, it never happened, moshe and all the jews of that generation passed away in the desert. only the next generation went into eretz yisroel
hundreds of rabbanim signed a psak din that the rebbe has a din of a navi, go learn the sugya. besides the rebbe never said that no one will get hurt, go read the sichos,So according to Shmei no one should study this work because of his “ignorance.”
On the contrary, study it! But don’t viciously attack others because you haven’t studied enough to understand what they mean.
Lubavitchers have their own “Chumash” called “the rebbe’s sichos” (which is why it’s probably quoted a lot over here)
I know, it’s crazy for students to quote their teacher all the time.
Imagine if someone לא אמר דבר שלא שמע מרבו, such blasphemy.“In one such essay he discusses the Akeidah and the author said that the Akeidah was the only real test that Abraham faced because the other nine were just acts of Chesed which matched his good nature. Number one that’s absolutely false.”
“Kicking out הגר & ישמעאל is hardly חסד”
“All I said is that Rabbi Pozner downplayed Avraham Avinu’s greatness by writing in his book that the Akeidah was our Founder’s only true test which is obviously false. Leaving his homeland and sending away Yishmael were examples of Avraham going against his Middah of Chesed.”
In addition to what I posted earlier, I did some more research, and this is what I found:
The Vilna Gaon:
“By the Akeida Hashem said “Now I I know that you fear Hashem,” because until then Avraham was only a great rachman (merciful) for he would invite guests and do acts of kindness. However, the middah of Achzariyus (cruelty/severity) and forcing himself to fulfill Hashem’s mitzvos was not yet apparent in him, and people could have said that Avraham is not a tzaddik gamur ch”v.However, at the Akeida, when he also acted with the middah of Achzariyus, for he had a complete desire to fulfill Hashem’s command and slaughter his only son, then he was complete, and it was clear that he was a tzaddik gamur.”
See it here, in his sefer Kol Eliyahu: https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14227&st=&pgnum=7
Will you begin attacking the Vilna Gaon as well now?
Or will you admit that it’s absurd to attack random pirushim and vertelach just because you don’t understand them or don’t like the author?
Ani Ma’ami Be Emuna Shleima SheHu Levado Asa VeOseh VeYa’aseh Lechol HaMa’asim Boreh UManhig LeChol HaBru’im.
HU LEVADO.
.@echad
No one is listening to Berger because of WHO he is.
If there is someone listening to him , it is because of WHAT HE SAYS.So, it is totally pointless to either denigrate or elevate his personality.
It is worthwhile however, to concentrate on the substance of his message, if you want to have some impact.Engage with his message, consider the reality , the evidence.
Inform yourself.
Let go of any preconceived notions.
Examine the facts with a fresh and open mind.
Weigh it carefully.And you will come to the inevitable conclusion : Habad nowadays, while consisting of wonderful people, is not normative Judaism.
Thats not sin’at hinam , nor is it hateful.It’s simple reality.
.The biggest question in this thread is why Lubavitchers even have to defend themselves against such an obvious am haaretz.
QWERTY if you want to have a conversation outside of mere conjecture why don’t you engage Sechel in an honest Torah discussion? Please see the thread he posted.
Until then I will continue to disregard you as the Baal gaavah, and obvious perpetrator of sinas chinam you are.
“I know, it’s crazy for students to quote their teacher all the time.
Imagine if someone לא אמר דבר שלא שמע מרבו, such blasphemy.“No it’s crazy to use it as a Chumash as to what the whole comment was about
To Menachem Shmei
You almost understood my point. The fact that Hashem Echad is the one inviolate truth of Judaism allows us to automatically reject any statement that challenges this. Let’s consider this obvious example. In Bereishis Hashem says, “Come let us make man in our image.”:At face value this is clear-cut idolatry and many have used that literal meaning to support their idolatrous views. But those who accept Hashem Echad realize that the verse isn’t actually saying this. So we go to the Gemara in which Hashem called Yaakov “Kel”. If you accept Hashem Echad then you understand that it doesn’t mean that Yaakov is literally god. Good. Hope you’re still with me. Now here’s the problem. Seichel, with all his Chassidus does take that Gemara literally and he states that just as Yaakov is god so is the Rebbe. Now if you actually believe in Hashem Echad you can prove it by calling out Seichel and any other Lubavicher who makes statements which state or imply that a human being can be god. I’m not holding my breath.
To yankel berel
Why are you trying to reason with an idolater? Chabad has lies for all the Rabbis who call them out. Dr. Berger wrote the book because he was a failed academic who was about to lose his tenure if he didn’t publish something..So he made up slander and lies against Chabad. And Rav Shach hated Chabad because they didn’t hire him as a Rabbi in Far Chabad in 1951. They use any lie they can think of to get the critics off their case.5
To the group
Menachem Shmei writes, “Don’t viciously attack others when you haven’t studied enough to understand what they mean.” How much did Shmei study to accept Seichel’s statement that the Rebbe and Yaakov are co- gods with Hashem?
To coffee addict
Your point was correct but you didn’t present it properly. Chabad has a system called Igros Kodesh. When people ask them how they can continue without the Rebbe they answer that the Rebbe is still with them in the Igros(letters). So if a Lubavicher has a question he randomly opens this book of letters and the Rebbe answers him. So according to Chabad Hashem transformed himself into the Rebbe and the Rebbe placed his essence into those letters. Makes complete sense…..if you’re a Martian.
yankel > Why can’t you write R Chaim Volozhiner ???
just to clarify, I did not mean to deny his semicha from (sic) Vilna Gaon. See, you don’t need to say R Kramer, just Gaon is enough. Same with other famous people – Hillel, Shammai, Berdichever. At the same time, not using with less-known people or using Dr but not R is usually an intentional opinion disparaging not just the person but also the movement that gave him the semicha.
At face value this is clear-cut idolatry and many have used that literal meaning to support their idolatrous views. But those who accept Hashem Echad realize that the verse isn’t actually saying this.
You’re finally catching on.
When it comes to the Rebbe’s sichos, you are part of the former group of people, and I (and fellow Lubavitchers) am part of the latter.
“Makes complete sense…..if you’re a Martian.“
Or as I’ve been saying, a נוצרי
To Menachem Shmei
Your games don’t work on me. You were given a direct challenge. Either renounce Seichel’s idolatry or admit that you agree with it. I’m not on trial here. You, as the most intelligent Stooge, are. Hashem is waiting for an answer which will never come. When Hashem says checkmate to you you’ll remember my warnings. Til then you can keep convincing yourself that you’re winning. No one is buying your garbage.
To the group
Seichel claimed that hundreds of Rabbis signed a Psak that the Rebbe is a Novi. How many of those Rabbis are non Chabad? ZERO. Btw those same Rabbits signed a Psak that the Rebbe is god.
Qwerty and Coffee,
I’m still waiting for you to come out against the Vilna Gaon who said the same vort as Rabbi Posner.
By the way, once your at it, I found that the Ben Yehoyada says the same vort (סנהדרין פט,ב), so I expect you to come out against him as well.
(And again, the root concept that without the tenth test the first nine seemed worthless is a clear Gemara and Rashi on Chumash, as well as hinted in the posuk “NOW i know that you fear Hashem”.)
just a reminder who qwerty is:
does not understand lashon kodesh or yiddish
claims he learns gemara for 7 hrs a day and spends 10s of hrs on each blatt, but i asked him a simple pshat question on the blatt he just learned and was not able to answerTo Menachem Shmei
I haven’t read any of your Rebbe’s sichos. Whatever I know I’ve picked up from these threads and from what I hear in shul. In 1962 the Rebbe apparently said that he’s god clothed in human form. I would have Dan Him Lkaf Zechus that he didn’t mean that literally except for the fact that Seichel and Lostspark do accept it literally and you refuse to call them out for taking it literally.whicb implies that you agree with them..
To the group
Bli Neder I won’t be addressing any more comments to Menachem Shmei nor will I respond to anything he writes.
That’s checkmate!
Qwerty,
To clarify what I mean by “specific”:
Please write date, time and post number, as I have always done for you when referencing a post.Either renounce Seichel’s idolatry or admit that you agree with it.
I would have Dan Him Lkaf Zechus that he didn’t mean that literally except for the fact that Seichel and Lostspark do accept it literally and you refuse to call them out for taking it literally.
Whoah Qwerty, new accusation here!
We are making lots of progress these days.You already agree that עצמות ומהות ווי ער האט זיך אריינגעשטעלט אין א גוף can be understood just like all the other similar statements of great tzaddikim, which were obviously not AZ, ch”v.
You also came to understand that saying “so-and-so is an anav” or “so-and-so is a novi” doesn’t necessarily contradict the Gemara in Sotah.
I assume you also came to terms with the vort of Rabbi Posner, since you haven’t yet condemned the Vilna Gaon or Ben Yehoyadah for saying the same thing.
You also admitted that you don’t actually know anything that the Rebbe said, and are basing all of your “attacks” on rumors overheard in shul and online (I hope you don’t start believing rumors on Twitter about what it says in the Talmud).
You have one problem left:
Seichel and Lostspark have made statements that are CLEARLY avodah zorah (unlike all the statements of tzaddikim that I quoted earlier) and I refuse to condemn them!This is a serious accusation against me!
Please show me which posts of theirs you are referring to (please be specific, as I have always been with you), and I will definitely renounce any AZ which they espoused, r”l.Menachem,
I would have the same question
Earth to Menachem
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH ASKING QUESTIONS ON ANYBODY, even a Gemara, it what you do afterwards with it
But I guess Lubavitch goes after blind faith (sounds like another religion I know of)
@always ask
Koreh lerabo bishmo is an issur lefi shulhan aruch hilch kvod rabbo.
No connection to smicha, which itself is only a newish institution, only a few hundred years old, whereas the issur of koreh et rabbo bishmo is mentioned in the gemara.Muflag be hochma bedoro is considered like rabo , hence the issur of koreh et rabo bishmo toward gdolei hador.
berdichever or rogotshever does not classify as kore rabo bishmo .
In the case of Hillel and Shamai the principle of gadol merabban shmo , is used. But this is only valid for someone whose gadlut was so pervasively recognized that it was pashut that gadol merabban shmo. As opposed to RCH’V who, while exceedingly great ,still did not factually fit this specific criteria.The issur of koreh et rabo bishmo is not made any more lenient because that person happens to belong to a criticized group , to people with your hashkafa
So please acknowledge the truth
one should not say chaim volozhiner, rather say R Chaim volozhiner.
@sehel
Don’t tell me what your leader said or did not say at the time .
I was following every utterance of his at the time he made them . They were quoted in kfar habad magazine at the time and were disseminated all over the jewish world like only habad knows how to.I myself remember how he said that EY is the safest place on the globe and that no one will be hurt there.
And I also remember this being used as proof [by habad propaganda] for his so called [literal!] nevua status.Literal Nevua which we lost since Hagai Zharya and Malahi , and which [supposedly] returned now.
Here all habadi’s agree that his supposed Navi status is meant literally , right ?That’s how it was stated in the sicha [if not mistaken shoftim 5751] and that’s how it was taken by the hundreds of habad “yes men” [masquerading as neutral rabbis issuing an innocent psak] and subsequently by all stripes of habad hasidim .
Stated literally and taken literally.The sicha about God clothed in human form was also similar- both stated and taken literally.
In habad – everything the leader says is taken literally . Otherwise you are not a Chossid.And their leader knows that very well. Thats how he can say the most outrageous things , claim to the outside world that its was meant non literal, while he can rest assured that his hasidim will get the message, good and proper.
Bezot tibachenu , proof is, how did his hasidim take it ?
That is THE question. Not whether rebbi from ropshits or r bachyai or whoever else said something similar or not.
That’s totally irrelevant.What is relevant, is how was the message taken and therefore —– what was the intended message from that master communicator , their leader. Who clearly knew in advance how it would be taken. And still issued that message. Fully intended the outcome of that message.
The literal outcome of the navi message . and the literal outcome of the ‘clothed in human form’ message.
Just a reminder what sechel is –
Someone who doesn’t [want to] understand the point you are making
And then sets himself up as having answered your point by writing something totally incoherentTo coffee addict
You’re point is perfectly well taken.
To seichel
I don’t answer questions from Christians
Hi to all. I’m sure you’ve ALL been wondering where I am and hoping for my reappearance. Ta da! I’m here. The reason I haven’t given my two cents’ worth until know is because what I’ve read in this thread is basically a lot of rehashing of old stuff that has been debated in the past. But I am (slightly) human, so I can’t stay silent forever.
I have two topics on which to comment:
1. When someone says that a person who others assume has died is “with us physically” what does it mean? No beating around the bush, please. What does it mean? I know what a live person being with us physically means – he is in his body and nowhere else, in one place, he’s breathing and his heart is beating – but what does it mean when it is said about someone who has died? Even Yaakov Avinu lo meis – what does it mean? To me, from the gemara in Sotah 13a, it seems that he was alive but his soul was in his body, and not that he was in 770 or elsewhere. So without dissembling, what does it mean when someone says the L rebbe is alive physically.
2. Goral Hagra was transmitted from the Gra himself, which is why it is called that (surprise, surprise). What is the source for using the LR’s igros to answer questions? Had he himself said to do it, I would have accepted that Lubavichers do it even though I would not have believed in it. But he didn’t, so who says it is right?
And please don’t tell me “it works”, because that doesn’t mean it’s right or even permitted.
And don’t tell me, as a Lubavicher told me nearly three decades ago, “The rebbe said that there would always be a way to be connected to him, and therefore we use the igros,” as one does not lead to the other.
Finally, don’t quote me anecdotal stories about people putting kvitlech in seforim of their Rebbes, and having answers and/or yeshuos. I believe that many of those stories are in fact true, but that is not the same as reading what the sefer says when it is opened at random and deciding what it means on a personal level.Yankel, thanks for the exposition. As Koreh lrabo applies to one’s rav, you use muflag b chochma. I understand the latter as applying to one’s own generation as much as we are commanded to listen to rabbis of our own generation. Are you saying that this applies to anyone who was in HIS generation? Is there a source for this or your own idea?
For me, r Chaim certainly qualifies as gadol merabanan, as I don’t think he is not recognized now by any of the modern groups. Every Yeshiva that calls itself yeshiva attaches themselves to r Chaim. For example, I think I write r Salanter, because even as maybe there is not much open opposition to mussar, not many groups follow his approach.
Anyway, as one measures offense by the other person’s sensitivity and not his own opinion, I’ll certainly try blind neder to follow your convention.
To Arso
I’ve been waiting for your second coming. Oops that comment should be reserved for Chabad. I’d like to piggy back on a point you made last year. You said that before Gimmel Tammuz Chabad categorically rejected the possibility of Moshiach coming from the dead, but immediately after Gimmel Tammuz they did a 180 on that position. I spoke to a Chabad Rabbi several months ago and he confirmed what you said. Anyway you’re an important part of our team so please contribute.
To yankel berel
I’m starting to think that it’s a waste of time to deal with always. He doesn’t seem to want to address the real issue Chabad idolatry.
ARSo,
Welcome back!
Funny, I actually agree with everything that you said here!
Congratulations on some of the most logical points in this thread!To break it down:
When someone says that a person who others assume has died is “with us physically” what does it mean?
The most common understanding is that his spiritual life is felt very much in our day-to-life, living with his teachings, guidance, etc. (תניא אגה”ק סי’ כז).
Even Yaakov Avinu lo meis – what does it mean? To me, from the gemara in Sotah 13a, it seems that he was alive but his soul was in his body,
This meaning is a bit more farfetched, but as you pointed out, it is in Gemara after all, and this is how Rashi explains it (Yaakov was physically alive, but he SEEMED dead -Taanis 5b, and this is also implied from the story of Chushim in Sotah, as you referenced) so I guess it’s not completely crazy if someone believes this about a tzaddik.
it seems that he was alive but his soul was in his body, and not that he was in 770 or elsewhere.
This is obviously the meaning. ר’ יוחנן doesn’t argue on the fact that Yaakov was buried in מערת המכפלה etc., rather he says that all of this WAS DONE because he seemed to be dead, but despite all of this he was alive (obviously miraculously).
So without dissembling, what does it mean when someone says the L rebbe is alive physically.
If someone makes this (farfetched) point, it MUST mean that the Rebbe was buried at the ohel (since halacha mandates that we follow what our eyes see, even if Torah tells us that the truth is different, which is why Yaakov was buried etc. even according to Rashi’s opinion, as the Rebbe himself explained לקו”ש חל”ה שיחת ויחי), and that is where he is now, not physically walking around 770, which is ridiculous.
I know many, many people who believe that the Rebbe is alive physically (like Rashi Taanis 5b about Yaakov Avinu) and all go to the ohel all the time.
Those who don’t go to the ohel and say that the Rebbe is physically in 770 are usually very dimwitted teenagers (though there are exceptions. As you may have seen in the video posted earlier of Rabbi Noam Wagner – who is a true gaon in nigleh and chassidus – he seems to be a bit wishy washy on the subject (though he himself goes to the ohel often) and I have confronted him about it without receiving a satisfactory answer).
[This doesn’t mean that a Lubavitcher won’t feel a special connection to the Rebbe in 770 as well, as the Rebbe Rayatz wrote that the place where a tzaddik learned and davened retains his holiness after his passing.
Another point is about Rabbeninu Hakadosh visiting his home after his passing to make kiddush, but b’pashtus he was usually buried in his kever, unless seen elsewhere.]
2. Goral Hagra was transmitted from the Gra himself, which is why it is called that (surprise, surprise). What is the source for using the LR’s igros to answer questions?
No (credible) source at all, and I think it’s ridiculous. I know some people who do this, and they were never able to explain this strange custom to me (though none of them take the advice %100, and will use it more as food for thought for general guidance, and ask a mashpia for practical behavior).
Finally, don’t quote me anecdotal stories about people putting kvitlech in seforim of their Rebbes, and having answers and/or yeshuos. I believe that many of those stories are in fact true, but that is not the same as reading what the sefer says when it is opened at random and deciding what it means on a personal level.
Completely agree. Obviously, there is a concept of hashgacha protis, so if someone is going through a challenge and davening for a brocha, and suddenly learns something addressing his challenge we could definitely say that Hashem arranged the events, since everything is controlled by Hashem, and the Baal Shem Tov taught about finding a lesson in everything we see.
But deciding that whatever you open up to is a spiritual instruction is baseless and childish.“But deciding that whatever you open up to is a spiritual instruction is baseless and childish.“
And I know Lubavitcher that do this (because that is what they’re taught)
Menachem Shmei, is it really you?! You’re agreeing with everything I say and even claiming that you have had some of the same problems in understanding what’s going on that I have?!
Either one of us is going crazy or someone has stolen your moniker : -)
But seriously now, you can’t answer the questions I have asked because you agree with me. Fine, and I appreciate that. But then again, as far as I recall you are not the one who has said that the LR is alive. So can someone who has claimed that please enlighten both of us of what it means. And remember, no fluff. Simple pshat that makes sense when saying someone who has died and been buried is still alive.
And, of course, we are both waiting for justification about the use of the igros.
Two points, however, about what you wrote:
1. none of them take the advice %100, and will use it more as food for thought for general guidance
I, with newfound respect, beg to differ. I know a number of people who use the igros regularly to make their decisions, and many even encourage others to do so.
2. Of course we believe in Hashgochoh Protis, but determining what is meant to be done from a given circumstance is very dangerous. Let’s say that someone wants to attend an event but he is short of cash on hand. Then, behashgochoh protis, he finds a $20 bill that was blown his way. So often the immediate conclusion is that Hashem has sent him the money so that he can attend. But that may not be the case. Perhaps Hashem sent him the money to test him to see if he uses it to attend when, in fact, he shouldn’t.
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