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Seichel,
Do you take all gemaras the way you want without trying to understand it?
Did you look at the מהרשא on that Gemara? And even if you didn’t maybe Moshe Rabbeinu was also ה׳ why only Yaakov (and R Menachem Mendel Schneerson, oops I was עובר הוצאת שם שמים לבטלה)
Furthermore if he is god how can you have pictures of him?
@Menachem Shmei
is being moche on the grounds of Bizuy Talmidei hahamim.Laudable.
At first glance.
But limited to the level Kvod Talmidei Hahamim displayed at the leader of Habad hasidims farbrengen on purim 1956.Ma’ase Rav. [leshitat menahem] .
Anything similar to the bizayon exhibited there is obviously permitted.
…..
.
QWERTY,
Please let the troops in EY with the Moshiach flags on top of armored vehicles know,as a dentist,the Rebbe is not Moshiach.
Remember the Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach let r. Shach he needed to have his Tefillin checked.
Maybe you should do the same!
@lost spark
Lol.Maham Shilo [for the uninitiated -an acronym for melech hamashiach sheyihyeh la’olam va’ed]
claimed R’ Shachs tfillin is pasul.Habad ‘s pikachim use that as PROOF [?!] that Rav Shach were actually pasul . [actually heard this myself from a habad hasid]
Hence we have PROOF that Rav Shach was wrong for calling worldwide attention to habad’s deviations.
They call this “irrefutable logic which we have no answer to” …..
No more needs to be said.
.@lostspark
We have a klal in halacha – whenever there is a mahloket between a dentist and troops in armored vehicles , the Halacha follows the troops ,irrespective what the svara is and irrespective of whether there are re’ayot in any direction, for sure if there are flags on top of the vehicles .Everything here was discussed already in previous threads. All just a bunch of foaming at the mouth (perhaps from both sides).
Nice to see that there’s always a Chabad thread (or threads) active.
To yankel berel
Everything we say goes in one Chabad ear and out the other and that’s why they make jokes about it. They’re convinced that the dead heretic is god so no argument has any effect on them. As you see, I never argue with them. I simply state the facts. There’s no hope for an idolater and so it’s Bittul Zman to try to show them the error of their ways. I write to encourage others to write and to convince those who are on the fence of the Chabad menace. Boruch Hashem we are succeeding.
To the group
Seichel wrote, “i don’t call you guys any bad names cuz I beleive Hashem and the Rebbe don’t want me to do that.” Now that’s interesting. Seichel actually put Hashem before the Rebbe. But wait, when he spelled believe he put the e before the I and so maybe he did this as a code to reverse the order of two of his three gods(Yaakov is the other.) Or perhaps we should follow the Gaon who said that the simplest answer is the truth and the simple answer is that Seichel is an idiot in addition to being an idolater.
To philosopher
You write beautifully and your arguments are compelling. Welcome to the thread.
To the group
AFAIC, it’s all over but the shouting. Yes the idolaters will continue their nonsensical babbling, but it’s quite clear that no real Jew is buying this garbage. So what’s next? On Tisha B’Av I went to my Shabbos Shul(non Chabad). I saw one of my friends and I wanted to show him this thread, particularly Seichel who openly states that the Rebbe is god, on my phone. His reaction? “I can’t believe you can say such Loshon Hora on Tisha B”Av.” What he meant, of course, is that I refuse to look at any criticism of Chabad. So why is that? He’s a very fine person. A Ben Torah, Baal Chesed. However, many people aren’t interested in the truth. There are many reasons for this but I’d like to focus on Kiruv. Now Kiruv is a wonderful concept and I fully endorse it, but there’s a downside. Those involved in Kiruv are eternally optimistic. You’re a Mechallel Yom Kippur. No problem. Give him an Aliyah. There’s no such thing as criticism. Now that may be a necessary approach, however there is such a thing as right and wrong. We have this travesty called, “Every Yid a Big Tzaddik.” That’s a complete lie but it dovetails with Kiruv. Just be positive at all times. It’s a corollary that Kiruv workers get so caught up in their work that they forget that Hashem is watching. Not everything goes. There is right and wrong and Chabad idolatry is definitely wrong. But from my experience, most people simply don’t care about Chabad’s excesses. They excuse all Chabad’s excesses. I don’t have a solution except that we have to keep on fighting.
@coffee addics “Do you take all gemaras the way you want without trying to understand it?”
i do, and looked at the mefarshim in the gemarah and medrash, and would encourage anyone who reads the sicha in chelek 2, (or saw it in the yaated neeman) to see the paragraphs before and after, and the footnotes!
@yankel berel “i remember hearing” exactly my point, you “heard” that R’ matisyanu solomon had concerns and made a meeting, therefore you decide the outcome of the meeting! great job, maybe the outcome was to do nothing about it because there is nothing wrong? ever thought of that option? especially cuz they didn’t end up doing anything, no kol korahs etc, which i’m sure they would have done if they felt it needed@yankel berel
misnagdim have history of making up stuff and telling it to there gedolim, i guess they feel that its justified for the outcome, they did this since the times of the baal shem tov, more in the times of the magid which causes the gra to put chassidim in cherem
btw do you hold of the gra’s cherem or you think he made a mistake? or a 3rd option?
qwerty did not join my discussion in gemarah on a seperate thread, i tried to ask him to start so he can discuss a sugya he’s learning, but he never did so i started on on inyonai diyoma. seems like he’s bologna and does not learn (as i thought)To the group
For two weeks Seichel pestered me to “reveal” which Mesechtas I’m learning insinuating that in fact I don’t learn at all. I finally told him it was Avodah Zarah, Berachos and Shabbos. That wasn’t good enough for him. Next he wanted to know what Daf I’m up to, so I told him Berachos 33a. Today he writes that I refused to tell him what I’m learning and this is proof that I don’t really learn. But Menachem Shmei is even worse. He continually challenged me to answer his holy question calling me a liar for ducking the question. I told him several times that no such question was ever asked so he should ask me again. Like the coward he is, he dropped the subject. The Gemara teaches that those who accuse others are invariably guilty of that act. Back in my youth there was a slogan, “You don’t have to be Jewish to love Levy’s(rye bread)”. You don’t have to be a lying, psychotic idolater to be Chabad, but isn’t it amazing how many Lubavitchers fit that description?
To Lostspark
Please don’t misrepresent what I said. What I said is that Chabad as a whole is Amalek. As I explained, one function of Amalek is to instill doubt as to whether Hashem really runs the world. Since Cunin openly declared that the Rebbe runs the world and no one in Chabad has challenged him including you, this means that the entire Chabad entity behaves like a spiritual Amalek. Don’t you agree with me?
To philosopher
Once people allow the Yetzer hora to capture them the result is inevitable. I have a friend who learned at Aish Hatorah. He asked one of his Rabbonim why Lubavitchers are so successful financially. The Rabbi didn’t blink, ‘because they’re agents of Satan.” The Gemara says that the way a person wants to go Hashem leads him. Lubavitchers want to be idolaters and spread this around the world, so Hashem assists them. What they don’t understand is that ultimately, they’ll be driven out of both worlds. We warn them and warn them, but everything we say falls on deaf ears.
@sechel
outcome of the meeting was the message that everyone should know – without making waves [that was in 1967] – that habad is going onto the wrong path.I did not make it up. dvarim kehavayatan .
Point to be taken : it did NOT start in 1988 .
Far from it.
—-You and most other habadi’s are a living anachronism . The only hasidim who still relive the mahloket of the gra and hasidim over 200 yrs ago.
This is done and dusted. Get over it .There is no connection between the two sides then and the 2 sides now.
The issue now centers on your leaders personality and the mad cult around it .
That wasn’t the issue then at all.
770 is bigematria כן שקרנים (yes, liars).
The Chabad-Lubavitch faith has a false messiah, their late long dead Rebbe, false theology, collects money based on deception, and tries to keep itself going through more lies. This truth about them must be spread far and wide. They prey on ignorant Jews with their missionizing, people who didn’t have proper Jewish education, and try to convince them that they are normative Orthodox Judaism, which is far from the truth. They hired a writer, the “rabbi” of a non-Orthodox Temple in California, Joseph Telushkin, to write a book promoting their last leader with bubba mayses. Shame on them, a bunch of liars selling a heap of lies, מבית ומחוץ בכופר.
Seichel,
“i do, and looked at the mefarshim in the gemarah and medrash, and would encourage anyone who reads the sicha in chelek 2, (or saw it in the yaated neeman) to see the paragraphs before and after, and the footnotes!”
Let’s learn the מהרש״א together
דאי ס״ד למזבח קראו. למאי ס״ד השתא יהיה פירושו כפרוש רש״י בחומש לפי פשוטו שעל שם הנס שהיה ה׳ עמו והצילו קראו למזבח אל להיות שבחו של מקום כו׳ ע״ש וכפי׳ רש״י בחומש גבי ויקרא שמו ה׳ נסי ויקרא לו ה׳ שלום ומתורגמינן ופלח וצלי מ״מ י״ל כו ע״ש נראה מדבריהם שהתרגום שתרגם ויקרא ופלח יפרש נני שהקריאה היא מוסבת על המזבח כפרש״י לפי פשוטו בחומש אלא שהתרגום שומר הטעם ולא המלות כדרכו והוא דחוק בדברי התרגום
And here is the important part (the part you OBVIOUSLY didn’t see)
וטפי ניחא בזה דברי הרמב״ן שהבין שהתרגום יש לו דרך אחר שכתב אבל אונקלוס אמר ופלח עלה קדם א-ל אלקט דישראל ויהיה הטעם לו כטעם בו וכו׳ עכ״ל ויהיה הפירוש הכתוב לפי זה שקרא יעקב בתפילה על המזבח לא-ל אלקי ישראל והדרש דהכא ימאן זה דמלת א-ל מיותר הוא ולמאי דס״ד הכא דלמזבח קרא א-ל ה״ה הכי פריך דמלת א-ל מיותר ולא הוה ליה למכתב א-ל אלא יעקב הוא שקרא וכתב הרמב״ן שיש בענין זה סוד כו׳ ירמזו למה שהיו אומרים
שצורת יעקב חקוקה בכסא הכבוד כו׳ ע״שDo you need translation?
In other words he says יעקב was either calling Hashem or the מזבח that
So like I asked before “Do you take all gemaras the way you want without trying to understand it?”
qwerty > . Now Kiruv is a wonderful concept and I fully endorse it, but there’s a downside. Those involved in Kiruv are eternally optimistic. You’re a Mechallel Yom Kippur. No problem. Give him an Aliyah.
I very much understand your concerns about excesses. But here your understanding of “kiruv” is imperfect. (I used quotes because Chabad are usually not using this term, only those who – B’H – decided to copy their approach and who define their own position as between Hashem and those on outside. So, this is not about Aliyot and kibudim in general, it is about people asking basic questions about their relationship to Hashem, trying to figure out how to go home to their parents and eat from paper plates without causing a ruckus.
lemaskanah
whats behind the guy with a truck openly stating
Rebbe, Advisor ,Leader ,Prophet, Redeemer, God. [!!]
This guy ‘s being literal . or not ?
Nu what s behind this ? Atsmut umehut betoch haguf , or not ?
The silence is deafening here.
….
To always
I’m not clear what point you’re making. I assume you have a question or challenge. I’d love to see it and respond to it.
To Lemayseh
I saw Telushkin’s book. He devoted a chapter near the end about the Rebbe being Moshiach. He said that this is the one problem with Chabad. Using his incredible Lomdus and Gaonis he paskened that the Rebbe completely rejected the idea he’s Moshiach.
To coffee addict
Bob Dylan wrote, “We all see the same things we just start out from a different point of view. ” Seichel will read that Maharsha
and convince himself that it’s saying his Pshat. I call the Rebbe. a Kofer because he rejected open Gemaras. One such Gemara is Sanhedrin 111A in which R Simai said that most Jews won’t be redeemed by Moshiach just as most Jews who left Egypt didn’t enter the land of Canaan. The Rebbe rejected this and said that Moshiach will save every single Jew. A few years ago I saw a Lubavichers saying this Gemara on line. First he stated the plain Pshat but then he added, “Of course that isn’t the real Pshat. He quoted some Rashi out of context to”prove” that every Jew will be saved. Such is the power of idolatry.Menachem Shmei is even worse. He continually challenged me to answer his holy question calling me a liar for ducking the question. I told him several times that no such question was ever asked so he should ask me again. Like the coward he is, he dropped the subject.
See my post #2306326 from August 18 2:54 pm, where I reposted a question that challenges your false accusation that a certain obscure Lubavitch teaching is AZ ch”v.
It’s in clear and simple English.
[It was a long post, and was already posted twice, so I don’t think it’s fair to the readers to copy paste it all over again.]
They prey on ignorant Jews with their missionizing, people who didn’t have proper Jewish education, and try to convince them that they are normative Orthodox Judaism, which is far from the truth.
I pray that you never need to use their “missionizing services” for a family member who lost their way (I don’t mean physically, as this is not Chabad’s true goal).
If ch”v you would be in that situation, oy, how you would regret these words!Dear Chabad, I’d like to request a physical visit to your physically alive Rebbe that is here with us physically on Earth.
Qwerty, that is true about people following the yetzer hora straight to shaul tachtis with their belief in a human being having divine powers.
But a bigger danger is that non-Chabad Chareidim do not realize and do not care what Lubavitchers believe in. The apathy of frum people to the fact that there is a new religion growing out of the Chareidi world is appalling to me, it is a chillul Hashem. There are also many people who refuse to believe that Lubavitchers believe this nonsense. I personally do not know Chabad well enough to say for a fact how much of a percentage believe in this ideology, but from what I’ve seen online and communicated with Chabad individuals over their beliefs, this ideology seems more like it is being taught in mainstream Chabad today.
I find that the insinuation that Hashem “changed His mind” to “demonstrate” how the Rebbe could’ve changed his mind to be absolutely revolting. Hashem revealed the Torah when he had a people to give to, when it was the right time in the creation for a nation to accept the Torah, He does not change His mind, the conditions change! Same as with anything else in the Torah where it may appear to humans that “Hashem changed His mind”; the conditions changed, not Hashem’s mind! The speaker could’ve used the argument that the conditions changed and therefore the Rebbe’s opinion changed regarding “yechi”, but he did not do so. Instead they are so used to deifying the Rebbe that they resort to actual kefira to try to in their mind “minimize” Hashem’s power and greatness so that they can “compare” their Rebbe’s actions to Hashem! Total idolatry!
To philosopher
I had an argument with a mainstream Jew on VIN. He believed that only a handful of Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach and no Lubavicher believes he’s god. It took me about 5 posts to get him to watch the Cunin video. With that he disappeared. As Paul Simon wrote, “A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.”
To the group
Menachem Shmei is resorting to Chabad’s favorite ploy. “Let’s see what you say about Chabad if you need their services.” Right. I attend a Chabad shul so that means I have to convert to Chabadianity. Chabad does great things. But it’s an idolatrous religion. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.
To Menachem Shmei
You don’t give up. A question is 10 words. Why is it so hard for you to humor an old man(me) and write a lucid 10 word or less question? We both know why you refuse to do so. It’s because the question will expose your Christian leanings.
Whenever you debate a xtian missionary the discussion goes, more or less :
Xtian : ‘proof1’ – our rebuttal1
‘proof2’ – rebuttal2
‘proof3’- rebuttal3After a few repetitions of the same pattern
the missionary exclaims
I won !
See, I brought ten proofs.Now dear reader : Is habad any different in this regard ?
To philosopher
I don’t know if you read Dr. Berger’s book but he spoke extensively about the refusal of Gedolim to do anything despite all the evidence. He said that one Godol told him that we’re waiting for them to do something really bad. My guess is that they’re afraid to act because it could lead to a lawsuit and Chabad would probably win in court and in the court of world opinion.
Hi all. Just wanted to leave a note here to my fellow past conversationists because I’ve felt bad to leave our conversations hanging (and as they never end, they will be at some point):
BH I’m alive and well. I’ve taken on a more time consuming track of Rambam earlier this year which has curtailed my online time (as was intended:)). Also have had a baby bH been quite busy.
Also importantly, I’ve learned the importance in finding value in others positions/ statements, instead of focusing on proving my own as a much better actionable gateway
to humility. Both in Lekutei Sichos 17, Vayikra A (especially the end), and from Relationshift, a sholom bayis entirely Torah/ Chassidus based, inside out, organization (I’m quite a fan).Which made me realize that contributing to respond here would put me in a position where I want to be both Dan lkaf zechus and learn from others knowledge/ positions etc. But also in dangerous territory of allowing etc bizui Talmidei Chachamim. Which led to my loss of desire to be involved.
In any case if you’d like some real answers, it seems that this forum is good for creating awareness, but real understanding would come from speaking to Chabad in person, and there are many ways to do that. If the Chabad person doesn’t feel educated enough etc you can always ask who would be good to ask.
It seems the young generation had the same Jewish heart, and the same devotion to seeking out Hashem, no matter what the educational background Chabad, litvish, so many unaffiliated etc.
@qwerty sorry i didnt see you wrote brachos 33, ill start a thread. i hope you’ll join.
“I call the Rebbe. a Kofer because he rejected open Gemaras. One such Gemara is Sanhedrin 111A in which R Simai said that most Jews won’t be redeemed by Moshiach just as most Jews who left Egypt didn’t enter the land of Canaan. The Rebbe rejected this and said that Moshiach will save every single Jew”
we went thru this gemarah before. if you spent 7 hrs learning that blatt, you would see there are other opinions, is the baal hatanya a kofer ch”v or the ramban? ויסוד לדברים אלו בדרוש רבינו הזקן ד”ה להבין ביאור ענין האבות ה”ה המרכבה (בתורת אור פ’ יתרו) ס”ג-ד, וז”ל: ענין עוה”ב שהוא ג”ע ותחה”מ ומבואר במפרשים1 וברמב”ן בשער הגמול שעיקר השכר עוה”ב הוא בתחה”מ, שמעלת תחה”מ היא יתרה מג”ע העליון. והנה בג”ע יושבין נשמות הצדיקים בלא גופות… ותחה”מ הוא שיעמדו בגופיהם… אפילו פושעי ישראל מלאים מצות כרמון ולכן כל ישראל יש להם חלק לעוה”ב בתחה”מ חוץ מאותם שמנו חכמים. עכ”ל.
what about the emek hamelech עמק המלך (בתחלתו ש’ תקוני התשובה ספ”ג) וז”ל: ועתה בנים שמעו לי יראת ד’ אלמדכם ואהבתו הק’ עמנו בני א-ל חי, למה לו כולי האי לטרוח עצמו ברשעים האלו המכעיסים אותו בכל עת ובכל רגע, ב’ תשובות בדבר התשובה הא’ כו’ אע”פ שהם רשעים גמורים כו’ ניצוצי קדושה בהם כו’ שהם נצר מטעי כו’ והיא חלק אלקה היא נצחי כו’ והנשמות הם רושם אור עצמותו וכל (אולי צ”ל “דכל”) הנופח מעצמותו הוא נופח כו’ ועוד טעם שני מעשה ידי להתפאר כו’ הק’ הוא ומעשה ידיו חיים וקיימים לעד ולעולמי עולמים ואי אפשר שתתבטל כ
medrash shmuel, alshich, rabmabn
ובמדרש שמואל ריש מס’ אבות בפי’ משנת כל ישראל כתב וז”ל: עולם הבא הנזכר כאן הוא עולם התחי’ ולא ישא אלקים את נפש הרשע עד כי ברוב הימים ימצאנה מטוהרה ואז נגנזת במחיצת הצדיקים כו’ וכן ע”ז הדרך לכל הנשמות עד שיתוקנו כולם כו’ וז”ש הכתוב ועמך כולם צדיקים כלומר בהכרח יהיו כולם צדיקים לפי שהוא ית’ חשב מחשבות לבלתי ידח ממנו נדח, עכ”ל.ועד”ז הוא באלשיך פ’ שמיני.
ויסוד לדברי כהנ”ל הוא בליקוטי הש”ס להאריז”ל מס’ אבות, וז”ל: כל ישראל יש להם חלק לעוה”ב כו’ רק שזה יתקן עצמו בזמן מועט וזה בזמן מרובה אבל סופם הוא להמנות עם הצדיקים ומשום זה שהקב”ה כביכול מטריח את עצמו עם רשעים כאלו לתקנם כו’ ולמה כן בשביל שהם נצר מטעי שהוא נצחיי והם רושם אור עצמותו וכל הנופח מעצמו הוא נופח. עכ”ל.
ויעוין ג”כ ברמב”ן בש’ הגמול (הובאו דבריו לקמן) שכתב: הנפש שהיא עליונה אי אפשר שתהי’ בטלה ואובדת כו’.
@coffee addict. so you take the maharsha’s pshat? that does not mean that you cant say a different pshat, as he mentions himself. so i understand it the way its explained by the rashab. and why cant you find an explanation of the sicha just like you did with the gemara? (to start, the paragraph before, after, footnotes, maamarim i mentioned)Seichel,
I brought you a מפורש one that you said you learned (which you obviously didn’t) and you’re bringing me a sicha
Who made this sicha?
I will say it over and over again it’s no different than a נוצרי bringing me his book to prove his guy is god or משיח
Ever heard of Isiah 53?
Qwerty > ’m not clear what point you’re making. I assume you have a question or challenge.
I think you are “misunderestimating” what Chabad did for myriads of Yidden, neshomos saved, many turning out ehrliche Yidden and having great families. Yes, there are side effects and I am acknowledging them (and did them to the face of people that have some reason in them), but those groups that were so engaged with the Torah that they did not pay attention to their brothers being lost should be less judgmental and more helpful, if they can.
r Avigdor Miller brings a moshal that might be applicable to Chabad activities: if a house is burning and you run into the house and save the child, you are getting burned also. It is not a punishment, it is a natural consequence of your – laudable – action.
My last comment was on a video. I forgot to include the video or the moderator decided not to post it. I posted the video with my last comment again but YW didn’t post it. For anyone who is confused what my my last comment is about, I was commenting on a video from a Chabad “rabbi”.
Yankel berel, you are so right. I used to argue with Christians when they tried to “quote” Tanach. Believing in human as a divinity is ridiculous, kol shekein trying to “prove” Christianity from Tanach that teaches us that belief in anyone other than our One True God is idolatry, and that God is not physical. So when Christians supposedly “quote” verses from Tanach to “prove that their religion is the truth” it is laughable. However, since I’m not Tovia Singer who knows pesukim from Tanach by heart, I always had to look up and to research the “verses” these Christians were “quoting” when arguing with them. Sometimes the verse they claimed was in Tanach was totally not there, sometimes it was mistranslated and sometimes they took the verse completely out of context. Every time I’d argue back and forth with a Christian they ALWAYS gave up in the end but till then they’d “quote” many “verses” and even though they mostly stopped responding to me in when I kept on proving them wrong, I do not believe I changed anyone’s mind because they are brainwashed from birth. To believe in a “trinity of 3 persons” as Catholics do that supposedly created and run the world you have to be pretty stupid. To believe that a divine “father” who is their god but needs help from an earthly son who supposedly has divine powers and became their 3rd god but who is killed by humans is stupid. And the poor “holy spirit” who is there as an afterthought and barely mentioned… But still, most of them wouldn’t change their mind but they’d “quote” more verses… So after awhile I stopped arguing with them and just wrote that Jews say every day the verse in the Torah, in Deuteronomy chapter 6, “hear Israel the Lord our God, the Lord is One”. According to Tanach, belief in a human being as a god is idol worship. Belief in gods other than the One Creator of the universe is paganism. That’s all I write because I won’t waste my time with brainwashed people. And they have nothing to answer me.
The same is with a Lubavitche who believes the Rebbe is physically alive and who runs the world. They are so brainwashed, they believe in something so bizarre that it’s a waste of time to argue with them. The Rebbe died, there was a lavayah, the rebbe was buried, there is a ohel they daven in, there is no physical Rebbe around anymore, and yet the STILL believe the Rebbe is PHYSICALLY alive! Can there be something more stupid than this? Apparently yes, because they also believe their (dead) Rebbe runs the world! Sometimes I will respond to Lubavitche when they say things like “Moshe Rabbeinu also ran the world” …but when they start “quoting” Gemorahs and Rashis I don’t bother because they are simply taking things out of context or openly making things up. Then I say, “shma Yisroel Hashem Elokienu Hashem Echaddddd!”
To always
I don’t disagree that Chabad has done and is doing excellent things. And I’m not so cynical as to believe that every Lubavicher is trying to be Mikarev Yidden in order to convert them to Chabadianity. What I and all the others in the thread are saying is that Chabad is no longer a valid expression of Judaism since it posits that the Rebbe is god. Your argument is similar to the popular Chabad refrain, “How can you criticize us? What happens if you’re in Mozambique and you need a Kosher meal?” So that excuse being an idolater?
To Seichel
Please give me the proofs from the Rabbis you quoted that they reject this Gemara. I don’t read original Hebrew or Yiddish sources.To always
I think I understand your reticence about criticizing Chabad. You’re a follower of Rabbi Miller and he endorsed Chabad. Well he was wrong. And he was wrong about a number of things. I used to be part of the Miller world but I rejected it. A person has to discover the truth for himself. You can’t rely on someone to think for you. That’s the problem with Chabad.@qwerty
I don’t know if you read Dr. Berger’s book but he spoke extensively about the refusal of Gedolim to do anything despite all the evidence. He said that one Godol told him that we’re waiting for them to do something really bad. My guess is that they’re afraid to act because it could lead to a lawsuit and Chabad would probably win in court and in the court of world opinion.
===
I am not privy to dr bergers discussions with rabanim. So it is hard to comment.
But what IS clearly in the public’s domain is the public statements of many rabanim about habad .
Whether it is from the litvish side or the satmar side or the sefaradi side.
Boy are they strong statements ….They are clear warnings that some really uncomfortable things are developing in habad.
The only step they have not taken [yet] and I seem to understand that’s what you are alluding to ….
is the fact that no one has paskened [yet] that their edut for gittin vakidushin is invalid , which would have MAJOR repercussions in regard to mamzerut and yichus.Which shows that , when push comes to shove , they did not classify them [at least as a group] as apikorsim and kofrim.
Its interesting that rav shach limited his public anti habad statements to the time when their leader was healthy and functioning. There are no public ststements on record from his last stroke and onwards , around pesach time in 1992.
That seems to indicate that rav shachs impetus for his anti habad statements were more based on future based concerns re where a healthy and functioning habad leader could potentially take us .Whereas now we are dealing with the fallout of the hasidims theological shenanigans .
Which could also mestasise and who knows where that would end ?Qwerty, I never read Dr. Berger’s books but it did puzzle me why no rabbonim spoke out against this kefira.
To yankel berel
You’re right as always and I say this because I mean it. I’m not a Michanef Chas Vesholom. The problem is that there are a host of Chabad “useful idiots” prominent Rabbis who go out of their way to praise the movement. I won’t name them but Hameivin Yavin. I think we now have a “trinity” on this site. Three powerful anti-Chabad voices, you, philosopher and yours truly(I don’t mean to slight the others we fully value your contributions). Maybe a better term than “trinity” is that we are a three-ply cord which isn’t easily severed. We are right. Hashem knows we’re right and with His help we’ll eliminate this cancer which has invaded Judaism’s body and now threatens to metastasize. To be sure we don’t wish any physical harm to Chabad and I want Chabad to continue doing its great work. But the deification of the Rebbe must end.
To cs
Welcome back and Mazel Tov. We can and will fight to defend Hashem’s honor but at the end of the day we must remember that Hitler, Hamas and all our existential enemies wouldn’t distinguish between us. So let’s keep the hate out as much as possible.
qwerty613
To Seichel
Please give me the proofs from the Rabbis you quoted that they reject this Gemara. I don’t read original Hebrew or Yiddish sources.
so you agree your very ignorant finally
they all – ramban, alshich, arizal, emek hamelech and others – say that every jew has a share in the world to come – which they say refers to techiyas hamasim – exactly what you called the rebbe a kofer for rejecting a gemarahseems like the gedolim dont agree with berger. thats the only explanation why they dont endorse his ideas.
To Sechel
I acknowledged, when I came on this site last year that I’m not a lamdan. I stated that clearly. My strengths are that I write well, I’m logical and I tell the truth. My Rav, who’s a giant Talmid Chacham told me that I’m capable of arguing with anyone because I tell the truth. On the other hand, you are a liar. You said that there’s a Gemara which states that Yaakov Avinu is god. I checked with my Rav and no such Gemara exists. Next, I asked you to provide a proof against the Gemara in Cheilek which said that almost no Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. You give me quotes about every Jew getting into Olam Habo. You’re mixing apples and oranges, which means that you’re stupid and/or lying. I mentioned today that the anti-Lubavichers have a strong triumvirate. You guy also have an interesting threesome, you, Shmei and Lostspark. I call you the Three Stooges.
To philosopher
That’s a big part of the book. My guess is that the Gedolim are afraid to start with Chabad because that would be playing into their hand. It would end up in court and Chabad would win. They’d have Dershowitz, Lewin and others supporting them. Frankly, I don’t understand why they don’t just make statements like Rabbi Belsky that Chabad is a cult and it doesn’t represent normative Judaism, but the last time I checked the Gedolim weren’t asking for my opinion..
To Seichel
I just want to repeat a point I made. You’re telling me that the Rabbis you cited all say that every Jew has a Cheilek in Olam Habo. That wasn’t my question. I asked you how your Rebbe could argue on the Gemara which said that Moshiach will save a small percentage of Jews. You’re mixing up subjects.
qwerty > What I and all the others in the thread are saying is that Chabad is no longer a valid expression of Judaism since it posits that the Rebbe is god.
I hear you. I frankly avoid people who look like they could have such opinions (and they literally “look” this way), and I did not interrogate others who I knew for years to be ehrliche Yidden to how they hold or deal with it. I do presume that in a Venn diagram, there are those who are both mashichists and who do great with non-observant Yidden as well as those who are non-maschichists and doing great work also. I am primarily concerned of the honor of the latter ones that you might be hurting.
> Your argument is similar to the popular Chabad refrain, “How can you criticize us? What happens if you’re in Mozambique and you need a Kosher meal?”
First, I am surely on record to discuss burning issues with Chabadnikim both seriously and needling, from bringing Vilna gaon books with me to wondering whether a person they are teaching should follow their minhagim or minhagim of their forefathers (such as sefardim or litvishe).
I do see though that you repeat mentally equating pikuach nefesh with providing kosher food to Yidden wandering in Mozambique. This is an echo of a chasid shoteh who hesitates saving a drowning lady.
> You’re a follower of Rabbi Miller and he endorsed Chabad.
FYI, I am not a follower, just a reader/listener and I did not recall that he endorsed chabad
When I read these heated discussions, I want to point out that there is hopefully a difference between ways we discuss Tanach with missionaries v. inter-Jewish discussions. Missionaries are brining gotcha psukim and we point out errors. When we talked among ourselves, we are here people who learned some Torah, not just quoting Rebbes and anti-Rebbes. So, we can see beyond line-by-line debate and wonder whether certain shitot fit into Yiddishkeit as a whole.
For example, yes, it is reasonable to have a Teacher, and learn from him and even follow him and not others. At the same time, students of Beis Hillel were not running around having daily recitations of bas kol that halakha is like their teacher and them, and point it to beis Shammai, and Beis Shammai were not siting in a circle meditating and dancing “moschiach, maschiach” that halakha will be like b Shammai then. So, if your religion becomes so biased, it might be a problem. I welcome disagreements with this, of course, but I hope you hear my argument.
“On the other hand, you are a liar. You said that there’s a Gemara which states that Yaakov Avinu is god. I checked with my Rav and no such Gemara exists.“
Qwerty,
He quoted the Gemara and according to the literal translation that’s what it says but like i said it’s no different than quoting yeshaya
Btw, some say Dr Berger, some say Berger, this should be Rabbi Dr Berger, whether you disagree with his opinions or never read his books.
I did not learn his positions on Chassidut, but I had an interesting interaction with him many years ago – he made an oral presentation that was pretty strict on how to relate to another religion. I asked him on one articular nekuda where his presentation explicitly disagreed with a sefer he co-authored. He replied that his position is what he said and that particular chapter was written by the co-author and they could not come to an agreement on the issue. I guess, a good argument for “oral learning”.
They clearly write they are referring to עולם התחייה – read their words,
If you cant understand lashon kodesh, how on earth can you think of giving opinions on who is a gadal or not, or anything in yiddishkeit.
Go learn לשון הקודש first ,Qwerty if you would be able to read Hebrew, there is a responsa from r’ moshe shterbach that its permitted to give a michalel shabbos or yom kippur an ilia, and its permitted to invite him to shul knowing he will drive
Maybe learn halacha for a few hrs a day instead of gemarah for 7 hrs
Maybe learn chumash too.
Every jew is a tzadik – ועמך כולם צדיקים@CS
Its time that you got off this ‘high horse’ about ‘asking’ habad people.Its overtime and we [klal israel] are waiting for answers which are not forthcoming .
Why should we be deemed responsible [since you count yourselves as part of us] for laughable and refuted theories which are self contradictory and change according to convenience ?And which are motsi shem ra on the emuna amitit which we received from sinai ?
Why did our forefathers keep to the emet with such obstinacy and such sacrifice in the face of the entire known world just to have our emuna tehora reduced to mere jokes ?These are the [painful] issues at stake here .
Not kosher meals in Mozambique.
And not whether habad people are nice people.
And not whether the hasidim were right 200 years ago in their defense against their detractors.Those issues are totally IRRELEVANT in the present discussion.
We would like answers and we will not be pacified with ‘apple orange’ answers.
Klal Yisrael deserves ‘apple apple’ [amiti] answers.If you would deign to supply REAL answers , we are ready to listen ….
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