Chabad Media Won

Seichel,

Do you take all gemaras the way you want without trying to understand it?

Did you look at the מהרשא on that Gemara? And even if you didn’t maybe Moshe Rabbeinu was also ה׳ why only Yaakov (and R Menachem Mendel Schneerson, oops I was עובר הוצאת שם שמים לבטלה)

Furthermore if he is god how can you have pictures of him?

QWERTY,

Please let the troops in EY with the Moshiach flags on top of armored vehicles know,as a dentist,the Rebbe is not Moshiach.

Remember the Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach let r. Shach he needed to have his Tefillin checked.

Maybe you should do the same!

@lostspark
We have a klal in halacha – whenever there is a mahloket between a dentist and troops in armored vehicles , the Halacha follows the troops ,irrespective what the svara is and irrespective of whether there are re’ayot in any direction, for sure if there are flags on top of the vehicles .

To yankel berel

Everything we say goes in one Chabad ear and out the other and that’s why they make jokes about it. They’re convinced that the dead heretic is god so no argument has any effect on them. As you see, I never argue with them. I simply state the facts. There’s no hope for an idolater and so it’s Bittul Zman to try to show them the error of their ways. I write to encourage others to write and to convince those who are on the fence of the Chabad menace. Boruch Hashem we are succeeding.

To the group

Seichel wrote, “i don’t call you guys any bad names cuz I beleive Hashem and the Rebbe don’t want me to do that.” Now that’s interesting. Seichel actually put Hashem before the Rebbe. But wait, when he spelled believe he put the e before the I and so maybe he did this as a code to reverse the order of two of his three gods(Yaakov is the other.) Or perhaps we should follow the Gaon who said that the simplest answer is the truth and the simple answer is that Seichel is an idiot in addition to being an idolater.

To philosopher

You write beautifully and your arguments are compelling. Welcome to the thread.

@coffee addics “Do you take all gemaras the way you want without trying to understand it?”
i do, and looked at the mefarshim in the gemarah and medrash, and would encourage anyone who reads the sicha in chelek 2, (or saw it in the yaated neeman) to see the paragraphs before and after, and the footnotes!

@yankel berel “i remember hearing” exactly my point, you “heard” that R’ matisyanu solomon had concerns and made a meeting, therefore you decide the outcome of the meeting! great job, maybe the outcome was to do nothing about it because there is nothing wrong? ever thought of that option? especially cuz they didn’t end up doing anything, no kol korahs etc, which i’m sure they would have done if they felt it needed

To the group

For two weeks Seichel pestered me to “reveal” which Mesechtas I’m learning insinuating that in fact I don’t learn at all. I finally told him it was Avodah Zarah, Berachos and Shabbos. That wasn’t good enough for him. Next he wanted to know what Daf I’m up to, so I told him Berachos 33a. Today he writes that I refused to tell him what I’m learning and this is proof that I don’t really learn. But Menachem Shmei is even worse. He continually challenged me to answer his holy question calling me a liar for ducking the question. I told him several times that no such question was ever asked so he should ask me again. Like the coward he is, he dropped the subject. The Gemara teaches that those who accuse others are invariably guilty of that act. Back in my youth there was a slogan, “You don’t have to be Jewish to love Levy’s(rye bread)”. You don’t have to be a lying, psychotic idolater to be Chabad, but isn’t it amazing how many Lubavitchers fit that description?

@sechel
outcome of the meeting was the message that everyone should know – without making waves [that was in 1967] – that habad is going onto the wrong path.

I did not make it up. dvarim kehavayatan .

Point to be taken : it did NOT start in 1988 .
Far from it.
—-

You and most other habadi’s are a living anachronism . The only hasidim who still relive the mahloket of the gra and hasidim over 200 yrs ago.
This is done and dusted. Get over it .

There is no connection between the two sides then and the 2 sides now.

The issue now centers on your leaders personality and the mad cult around it .

That wasn’t the issue then at all.

Seichel,

“i do, and looked at the mefarshim in the gemarah and medrash, and would encourage anyone who reads the sicha in chelek 2, (or saw it in the yaated neeman) to see the paragraphs before and after, and the footnotes!”

Let’s learn the מהרש״א together

דאי ס״ד למזבח קראו. למאי ס״ד השתא יהיה פירושו כפרוש רש״י בחומש לפי פשוטו שעל שם הנס שהיה ה׳ עמו והצילו קראו למזבח אל להיות שבחו של מקום כו׳ ע״ש וכפי׳ רש״י בחומש גבי ויקרא שמו ה׳ נסי ויקרא לו ה׳ שלום ומתורגמינן ופלח וצלי מ״מ י״ל כו ע״ש נראה מדבריהם שהתרגום שתרגם ויקרא ופלח יפרש נני שהקריאה היא מוסבת על המזבח כפרש״י לפי פשוטו בחומש אלא שהתרגום שומר הטעם ולא המלות כדרכו והוא דחוק בדברי התרגום

And here is the important part (the part you OBVIOUSLY didn’t see)

וטפי ניחא בזה דברי הרמב״ן שהבין שהתרגום יש לו דרך אחר שכתב אבל אונקלוס אמר ופלח עלה קדם א-ל אלקט דישראל ויהיה הטעם לו כטעם בו וכו׳ עכ״ל ויהיה הפירוש הכתוב לפי זה שקרא יעקב בתפילה על המזבח לא-ל אלקי ישראל והדרש דהכא ימאן זה דמלת א-ל מיותר הוא ולמאי דס״ד הכא דלמזבח קרא א-ל ה״ה הכי פריך דמלת א-ל מיותר ולא הוה ליה למכתב א-ל אלא יעקב הוא שקרא וכתב הרמב״ן שיש בענין זה סוד כו׳ ירמזו למה שהיו אומרים
שצורת יעקב חקוקה בכסא הכבוד כו׳ ע״ש

Do you need translation?

In other words he says יעקב was either calling Hashem or the מזבח that

So like I asked before “Do you take all gemaras the way you want without trying to understand it?”

lemaskanah

whats behind the guy with a truck openly stating

Rebbe, Advisor ,Leader ,Prophet, Redeemer, God. [!!]

This guy ‘s being literal . or not ?

Nu what s behind this ? Atsmut umehut betoch haguf , or not ?

The silence is deafening here.

….

Menachem Shmei is even worse. He continually challenged me to answer his holy question calling me a liar for ducking the question. I told him several times that no such question was ever asked so he should ask me again. Like the coward he is, he dropped the subject.

See my post #2306326 from August 18 2:54 pm, where I reposted a question that challenges your false accusation that a certain obscure Lubavitch teaching is AZ ch”v.

It’s in clear and simple English.

[It was a long post, and was already posted twice, so I don’t think it’s fair to the readers to copy paste it all over again.]

Dear Chabad, I’d like to request a physical visit to your physically alive Rebbe that is here with us physically on Earth.

I find that the insinuation that Hashem “changed His mind” to “demonstrate” how the Rebbe could’ve changed his mind to be absolutely revolting. Hashem revealed the Torah when he had a people to give to, when it was the right time in the creation for a nation to accept the Torah, He does not change His mind, the conditions change! Same as with anything else in the Torah where it may appear to humans that “Hashem changed His mind”; the conditions changed, not Hashem’s mind! The speaker could’ve used the argument that the conditions changed and therefore the Rebbe’s opinion changed regarding “yechi”, but he did not do so. Instead they are so used to deifying the Rebbe that they resort to actual kefira to try to in their mind “minimize” Hashem’s power and greatness so that they can “compare” their Rebbe’s actions to Hashem! Total idolatry!

Whenever you debate a xtian missionary the discussion goes, more or less :

Xtian : ‘proof1’ – our rebuttal1
‘proof2’ – rebuttal2
‘proof3’- rebuttal3

After a few repetitions of the same pattern

the missionary exclaims
I won !
See, I brought ten proofs.

Now dear reader : Is habad any different in this regard ?

Hi all. Just wanted to leave a note here to my fellow past conversationists because I’ve felt bad to leave our conversations hanging (and as they never end, they will be at some point):

BH I’m alive and well. I’ve taken on a more time consuming track of Rambam earlier this year which has curtailed my online time (as was intended:)). Also have had a baby bH been quite busy.

Also importantly, I’ve learned the importance in finding value in others positions/ statements, instead of focusing on proving my own as a much better actionable gateway
to humility. Both in Lekutei Sichos 17, Vayikra A (especially the end), and from Relationshift, a sholom bayis entirely Torah/ Chassidus based, inside out, organization (I’m quite a fan).

Which made me realize that contributing to respond here would put me in a position where I want to be both Dan lkaf zechus and learn from others knowledge/ positions etc. But also in dangerous territory of allowing etc bizui Talmidei Chachamim. Which led to my loss of desire to be involved.

In any case if you’d like some real answers, it seems that this forum is good for creating awareness, but real understanding would come from speaking to Chabad in person, and there are many ways to do that. If the Chabad person doesn’t feel educated enough etc you can always ask who would be good to ask.

It seems the young generation had the same Jewish heart, and the same devotion to seeking out Hashem, no matter what the educational background Chabad, litvish, so many unaffiliated etc.

Seichel,

I brought you a מפורש one that you said you learned (which you obviously didn’t) and you’re bringing me a sicha

Who made this sicha?

I will say it over and over again it’s no different than a נוצרי bringing me his book to prove his guy is god or משיח

Ever heard of Isiah 53?

r Avigdor Miller brings a moshal that might be applicable to Chabad activities: if a house is burning and you run into the house and save the child, you are getting burned also. It is not a punishment, it is a natural consequence of your – laudable – action.

Yankel berel, you are so right. I used to argue with Christians when they tried to “quote” Tanach. Believing in human as a divinity is ridiculous, kol shekein trying to “prove” Christianity from Tanach that teaches us that belief in anyone other than our One True God is idolatry, and that God is not physical. So when Christians supposedly “quote” verses from Tanach to “prove that their religion is the truth” it is laughable. However, since I’m not Tovia Singer who knows pesukim from Tanach by heart, I always had to look up and to research the “verses” these Christians were “quoting” when arguing with them. Sometimes the verse they claimed was in Tanach was totally not there, sometimes it was mistranslated and sometimes they took the verse completely out of context. Every time I’d argue back and forth with a Christian they ALWAYS gave up in the end but till then they’d “quote” many “verses” and even though they mostly stopped responding to me in when I kept on proving them wrong, I do not believe I changed anyone’s mind because they are brainwashed from birth. To believe in a “trinity of 3 persons” as Catholics do that supposedly created and run the world you have to be pretty stupid. To believe that a divine “father” who is their god but needs help from an earthly son who supposedly has divine powers and became their 3rd god but who is killed by humans is stupid. And the poor “holy spirit” who is there as an afterthought and barely mentioned… But still, most of them wouldn’t change their mind but they’d “quote” more verses… So after awhile I stopped arguing with them and just wrote that Jews say every day the verse in the Torah, in Deuteronomy chapter 6, “hear Israel the Lord our God, the Lord is One”. According to Tanach, belief in a human being as a god is idol worship. Belief in gods other than the One Creator of the universe is paganism. That’s all I write because I won’t waste my time with brainwashed people. And they have nothing to answer me.

The same is with a Lubavitche who believes the Rebbe is physically alive and who runs the world. They are so brainwashed, they believe in something so bizarre that it’s a waste of time to argue with them. The Rebbe died, there was a lavayah, the rebbe was buried, there is a ohel they daven in, there is no physical Rebbe around anymore, and yet the STILL believe the Rebbe is PHYSICALLY alive! Can there be something more stupid than this? Apparently yes, because they also believe their (dead) Rebbe runs the world! Sometimes I will respond to Lubavitche when they say things like “Moshe Rabbeinu also ran the world” …but when they start “quoting” Gemorahs and Rashis I don’t bother because they are simply taking things out of context or openly making things up. Then I say, “shma Yisroel Hashem Elokienu Hashem Echaddddd!”

To Seichel
Please give me the proofs from the Rabbis you quoted that they reject this Gemara. I don’t read original Hebrew or Yiddish sources.

@qwerty
I don’t know if you read Dr. Berger’s book but he spoke extensively about the refusal of Gedolim to do anything despite all the evidence. He said that one Godol told him that we’re waiting for them to do something really bad. My guess is that they’re afraid to act because it could lead to a lawsuit and Chabad would probably win in court and in the court of world opinion.
===
I am not privy to dr bergers discussions with rabanim. So it is hard to comment.
But what IS clearly in the public’s domain is the public statements of many rabanim about habad .
Whether it is from the litvish side or the satmar side or the sefaradi side.
Boy are they strong statements ….

They are clear warnings that some really uncomfortable things are developing in habad.
The only step they have not taken [yet] and I seem to understand that’s what you are alluding to ….
is the fact that no one has paskened [yet] that their edut for gittin vakidushin is invalid , which would have MAJOR repercussions in regard to mamzerut and yichus.

Which shows that , when push comes to shove , they did not classify them [at least as a group] as apikorsim and kofrim.
Its interesting that rav shach limited his public anti habad statements to the time when their leader was healthy and functioning. There are no public ststements on record from his last stroke and onwards , around pesach time in 1992.
That seems to indicate that rav shachs impetus for his anti habad statements were more based on future based concerns re where a healthy and functioning habad leader could potentially take us .

Whereas now we are dealing with the fallout of the hasidims theological shenanigans .
Which could also mestasise and who knows where that would end ?

To yankel berel

You’re right as always and I say this because I mean it. I’m not a Michanef Chas Vesholom. The problem is that there are a host of Chabad “useful idiots” prominent Rabbis who go out of their way to praise the movement. I won’t name them but Hameivin Yavin. I think we now have a “trinity” on this site. Three powerful anti-Chabad voices, you, philosopher and yours truly(I don’t mean to slight the others we fully value your contributions). Maybe a better term than “trinity” is that we are a three-ply cord which isn’t easily severed. We are right. Hashem knows we’re right and with His help we’ll eliminate this cancer which has invaded Judaism’s body and now threatens to metastasize. To be sure we don’t wish any physical harm to Chabad and I want Chabad to continue doing its great work. But the deification of the Rebbe must end.

To cs

Welcome back and Mazel Tov. We can and will fight to defend Hashem’s honor but at the end of the day we must remember that Hitler, Hamas and all our existential enemies wouldn’t distinguish between us. So let’s keep the hate out as much as possible.

seems like the gedolim dont agree with berger. thats the only explanation why they dont endorse his ideas.

To philosopher

That’s a big part of the book. My guess is that the Gedolim are afraid to start with Chabad because that would be playing into their hand. It would end up in court and Chabad would win. They’d have Dershowitz, Lewin and others supporting them. Frankly, I don’t understand why they don’t just make statements like Rabbi Belsky that Chabad is a cult and it doesn’t represent normative Judaism, but the last time I checked the Gedolim weren’t asking for my opinion..

To Seichel

I just want to repeat a point I made. You’re telling me that the Rabbis you cited all say that every Jew has a Cheilek in Olam Habo. That wasn’t my question. I asked you how your Rebbe could argue on the Gemara which said that Moshiach will save a small percentage of Jews. You’re mixing up subjects.

When I read these heated discussions, I want to point out that there is hopefully a difference between ways we discuss Tanach with missionaries v. inter-Jewish discussions. Missionaries are brining gotcha psukim and we point out errors. When we talked among ourselves, we are here people who learned some Torah, not just quoting Rebbes and anti-Rebbes. So, we can see beyond line-by-line debate and wonder whether certain shitot fit into Yiddishkeit as a whole.

For example, yes, it is reasonable to have a Teacher, and learn from him and even follow him and not others. At the same time, students of Beis Hillel were not running around having daily recitations of bas kol that halakha is like their teacher and them, and point it to beis Shammai, and Beis Shammai were not siting in a circle meditating and dancing “moschiach, maschiach” that halakha will be like b Shammai then. So, if your religion becomes so biased, it might be a problem. I welcome disagreements with this, of course, but I hope you hear my argument.

Btw, some say Dr Berger, some say Berger, this should be Rabbi Dr Berger, whether you disagree with his opinions or never read his books.

I did not learn his positions on Chassidut, but I had an interesting interaction with him many years ago – he made an oral presentation that was pretty strict on how to relate to another religion. I asked him on one articular nekuda where his presentation explicitly disagreed with a sefer he co-authored. He replied that his position is what he said and that particular chapter was written by the co-author and they could not come to an agreement on the issue. I guess, a good argument for “oral learning”.

Qwerty if you would be able to read Hebrew, there is a responsa from r’ moshe shterbach that its permitted to give a michalel shabbos or yom kippur an ilia, and its permitted to invite him to shul knowing he will drive
Maybe learn halacha for a few hrs a day instead of gemarah for 7 hrs
Maybe learn chumash too.
Every jew is a tzadik – ועמך כולם צדיקים