Chabad Media Won

Yankel,

Thanks for responding to my post! I appreciate the discussion. However, the points that you made are easily refutable:

A] If one reads the sicha (without preconceived notions and grievances), it is clear that the Rebbe does not hint to himself any more than the other statements I referenced. I challenge you to demonstrate how the sicha implies that the Rebbe was speaking about himself more than the other quotes I brought.

In fact, the sicha was delivered two months after the passing of the Frierdiker Rebbe (and months before the Rebbe even accepted the nesius), and it discusses why people should visit the ohel to receive brochos from the (Frierdiker) Rebbe, even after he is no longer alive! Given this context, how could the Rebbe have been referring to himself!?

Chabad chassidim may indeed apply these words to the Rebbe, just as the talmidim of Reb Elimelech surely applied his words about tzaddikim to him. However, there is no unique implication that the Rebbe was speaking about himself.

If you believe otherwise, please show me where in the Rebbe’s words this implication is made. If not, you should retract your claim.

[On a side note: You wrote “None of them said anything about themselves.” What about Idra Zuta in Zohar: פתח רבי שמעון ואמר בחד קטירא אתקטרנא ביה בקוב”ה… נשמתי ביה אחידא ביה להיטא.
I understand that tanaim may be different (“כגון אנא”), but just pointing this out for accuracy.]

B] I guess there was personal gain for the Rebbe that people wouldn’t bother him for brochos, rather they would go to the Frierdiker Rebbe?

C] This is nonsense, I have never heard any sort of AZ style interpretation from Lubavitchers in this statement, ch”v.
As a matter of fact, this idea (of עצמות אריינגעשטעלט) is quite obscure and almost never mentioned in Chabad circles. This is not a classic topic of discussion.
It is only understood this way and amplified by non-Lubavitchers who are seeking to misinterpret the Rebbe’s words and cause a ruckus.

D] This may or may not be true.
Do Lubavitchers really venerate the Rebbe more than the Jews in the desert venerated Moshe Rabbeinu, or the Jews of Eretz Yisroel venerated Shmuel Hanovi and Dovid Hamelech, or the Jews of Persia venerated Mordechai, or the veneration Rashbi received from his students, or the Arizal from his students, or the Baal Shem Tov from his students, or the veneration of the Chasam Sofer for his Rebbe, or the veneration of chassidei Chabad throughout the generations for their rabbeim?
I’m not sure. We’ll have to talk to an unbiased Jewish historian about that.

To coffee addict

I accept what you wrote and let’s focus on the task at hand exposing these lying idolaters.

qwerty you still never told me what daf, so i take it you dont learn anything as i thought

To the group

Let’s just bang another nail into Shmei’s theory that Chabad is no different than Bobov and Satmar par examples. We exhibit 1 million Rabbi Shlomo Cunin who publicly stated that the Rebbe alone runsa the world. This means that he holds that the Rewbbe is god. There’s no other way to spin it. Since the Chabad machers and psycho Rabbis refuse to denounce Cunin they are endorsing his view. Therefore the Chazakah is that all Lubavichers are idolaters. Case closed. Ok, checkmate. Go back into your bunker Shmei. No one’s interested in the garbage you’re peddling.

He told me that the Rebbe often spoke about conquering the world. When Lubavitchers are tots they’re taught this song, “From 770 we are marching out, on to victory there is no doubt, one by one nations we are conquering.”

It’s called לתקן עולם במלכות ש-ד-י.
Maybe the Rebbe was more actively involved in this than other gedolim.

Your claim rings similar to the Iranian and American alt-right documentaries about Chabad where they imply from the Rebbe’s sichos about Tzivos Hashem etc. that the Rebbe was secretly mobilizing a global army to fight a war against non-Jews.
Maybe join Candace Owens on her next podcast.

Just open the Chumash. Did you see chassidim complaining about the Rebbe the way Jews complained about Moshe? Caze clozed.

They were the misnagdim 😉

You had some Jews against Moshe and others extremely devoted.
Think about Yehoshua, Kalev, the Leviim, etc.

Qwerty,

You keep quoting Rabbi Cunin as if he said that the Rebbe runs the world and NOT HASHEM (ch”v).

This is equivalent to quoting Kalev as having said that Moshe alone split the sea, brought down the manna, and blew in the quail—AND NOT HASHEM (ch”v).
(Rashi, Shlach 13:30, based on Sotah)

You are intentionally misinterpreting Chabad statements in order to fit your agenda. This same tactic is quite popular online these days, with antisemites misquoting and misinterpreting passages from the Gemara and halacha, so you’re just jumping on the bandwagon.

Qwerty,

You have an annoying habit of accusing me of not answering your questions when in fact no questions were actually posed. You’ve been doing this since I joined YWN, in a feeble attempt to impugn my integrity. I have answered every question sent to me by any poster.

See my post #2306326 from August 18 2:54 pm, where I reposted a question that challenges your false accusation that a certain obscure Lubavitch teaching is AZ ch”v.

I have answered every question sent to me by any poster.

I hope you will hold up that habit.

Menachem is a bright guy and he writes well. He debates well and in his mind he wins all the arguments. That may be true. However there’s a referee for all these contests and He’s in Shomayim. He’s not impressed with Shmei’s tricks. We know Him as Hashem and He’s a jealous G-d.

Thanks for the compliments. You’re right, Hashem is the true judge, but thankfully He displays His wisdom in the Torah which I presented to you in the aforementioned post.

P.S. Please try not to get caught up with the last paragraph, and first and foremost, answer the question I posed to you many times over the last year, as in the beginning of this post.

To the group

In case you didn’t hear Cunin’s quote he said, “Make no mistake. The Rebbe runs the world and “HE” will take us out of Golus.”
So now you’re interpreting what he said as, “Hashem runs the world and He will take us out of Galus through His shliach the Rebbe.” Now that’s obviously a forced Pshat but for argument’s sake, we’ll accept it. So here’s the question, “Does any other Jewish group(Chassidish, Litvish Sfard you name it) declare their religious leader G-d’s partner?” And the answer is checkmate.

To Menachem Shmei

You’re pretending not to understand “Always Ask’s” point by taking your perfunctory shot at Misnagdim. Always was comparing Chabad’s slavish devotion to Oso Harebbe. Despite his lies and Kefirah they call him a Novi, the only perfect person who ever lived, still alive despite having died etc. In contrast, Moshe Rabbeinu, the greatest man who ever lived was assailed on numerous occasions, as the Torah attests. So yes, Chabad’s insane devotion to that Kofer is far more fanatic than the respect that Moshe was accorded. And therefore Yankel Berel’s point is confirmed. You can’t compare Chabad to any other Chassidic group. No Bobover thinks Reb Shlomo is still alive. No Satmar thinks that Reb Yoeli runs the world. And no Gerrer thinks that the Sfas Emes is god or that the Imrei Emes was a Navi. And if you try your shtick and say how do I know what they’re thinking the answer is simple. No Chossid of any such groups ever promoted their Rebbe as all of those things which Chabad does ad nauseum. Well, actually there was a group like that and they started a new religion about 2000 years ago. Checkmate.

@Shmei
As introduction –

this is NOT personal against you,
is NOT personal against Habad hasidim either.
This is NOT sin’at hinam , —– simply because there is no sin’a at all.

I have NO preconceived notions against habad , nor do I have any grievances against habad.

Aderaba – I LIKE habad hasidim.

But – facts ARE facts , and evidence counts.

So :
A1] One cannot be naive . Otherwise you turn into a “useful idiot”.
It is clear [without fact checking your claim when this atsmut toch haguf rubbish was said] that the future leader of habad is [more than] interested in the success of his future endeavor of leading his hasidim. That goes without saying and is obvious to anyone.

A2] Just to remember, there were 2 understandings [according to the habad defense here] ,

One: the LITERAL MEANING that God resides in a guf . This IS God.[a’l] our Creator . Who continues to be Manhig lehol HaBru’im
Two: The NON LITERAL MEANING that the tsadiq connects himself so strongly to God that legodel dibuko, we could stick a title to him AS IF he would be God.

To Anyone learning those early sfarim It is clear that the No’am Elimelech, R Bachay ,Minhat El’azar are referring to the second NON LITERAL MEANING

Thats why no one went crazy when those sfarim wrote what they wrote.

With the [late] leader of the habad hasidim , however, it is a totally different story. I myself remember hearing [in the early eighties] , from a mekor ne’eman that R Salamon zatsal [mashgiah of BMG] , convened a closed meeting in 1967[!] about his concern about the utterances of the habad leader .

So it is not true to say like shmei would have us believe
“no one went crazy until 1989.”

They went crazy already in 1967 [and in Israel even earlier]

I am witness to habad truck adorned with a picture of their leader with the following inscription underneath
Rebbe, Advisor ,Leader ,Prophet, Redeemer, God.

you cannot ignore the different language employed by their leader , different to ALL OTHER rebeim and rabbanim in this generation re his/shvers greatness

AND the different RESULTS engendered in his followers . Again – different to all other followers in other communities in our generation.

Both the language and the results are very different . This is a deliberate attempt at engendering a different result .

Think about this carefully .

As continuation

There was a decades long deliberate drip-fed, dual language brainwash going on during the last 8 decades ,leading untold unsuspecting temimim who were genuinely thirsty for dvar hashem to magnify and exaggerate the gadlut of their leader to unimaginable proportions.
It is clear that the rebbi of habad hasidim quenched his hasidim’s thirst .
But he did it with a mix of genuine and bogus torah teaching coupled with a slow but persistent indoctrination of his own supremacy over all other torah leaders over the generations. Leading to the unfortunate result of many many of OUR OWN BROTHERS AND SISTERS, misguided temimim, who, even while staying within the confines of Orthodoxy, are harboring a xtian like belief in their leader., AND ARE EDUCATING their future generations to a yahadut BASED on that belief.

These are the stark facts , whether on likes them , or not.
Whether one is sufficiently removed from habad in order to be able to notice them ,or not.
[After all -kol hanega’im adam ro’e huts mi nig’ei atsmo]

I never said that Chabad is like any other group, like Ger and like Belz.

I had one point only: Accusing Chabad of AZ is pure slander, מוציא שם רע against an עדה קדושה בישראל to the worst degree.

There is absolutely no basis to this claim, unless one is intentionally trying to misinterpret statements which were equivalent to statements made throughout Torah, as I referenced.
This is no different than the antisemites on the internet who throw together some mistranslated/misinterpreted talmudic passages and make a gevald.

“Hashem runs the world and He will take us out of Galus through His shliach the Rebbe.” Now that’s obviously a forced Pshat but for argument’s sake, we’ll accept it. So here’s the question, “Does any other Jewish group(Chassidish, Litvish Sfard you name it) declare their religious leader G-d’s partner?”

I know, it’s crazy to say that a human being is Hashem’s shliach to do something in the world. Almost as crazy as the kofer whom I overheard yesterday saying that he is supporting his family, as if it’s him and not Hashem. As crazy as Kalev saying that MOSHE split the sea, brought down manna, and flew in quail (see Rashi above). Or imagine if Moshe would have called Moshiach “Hashem’s shliach” to take the Jews out of golus (Rashi Shemos 4:13). As if G-d has partners! Pfft!

Hi
are there still posts to be published ?

Again, I must by moiche on Qwerty being allowed to refer to a tzaddik b’Yosroel and tremendous talmid chochom with terms that are definitely not considered respectful dialogue.
Especially as he has not not been able to provide any basis for his slanderous claims.

עָוֹן גָּדוֹל הוּא לְבַזּוֹת תַּלְמִידֵי חֲכָמִים אוֹ לִשְׂנאוֹתָן. לֹא חָרְבָה יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, עַד שֶׁבִּזּוּ בָהּ תַּלְמִידֵי חֲכָמִים, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר, וַיִהְיוּ מַלְעִיבִים בְּמַלְאֲכֵי הָאֱלֹהִים וּבוֹזִים דְּבָרָיו וּמִתַּעְתְּעִים בִּנְבִיאָיו, כְּלוֹמַר, בּוֹזִים מְלַמְּדֵי דְבָרָיו. וְכֵן זֶה שֶׁאָמְרָה תוֹרָה, וְאִם בְּחֻקֹּתַי תִּמְאָסוּ, מְלַמְּדֵי חֻקּוֹתַי תִּמְאָסוּ. וְכָל הַמְבַזֶּה אֶת הַחֲכָמִים, אֵין לוֹ חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא, וְהוּא בִּכְלַל כִּי דְבַר ה’ בָּזָה. וְאָסוּר לְשַׁמֵּשׁ בְּמִי שֶהוּא שׁוֹנֶה הֲלָכוֹת.

“I know, it’s crazy to say that a human being is Hashem’s shliach to do something in the world. Almost as crazy as the kofer whom I overheard yesterday saying that he is supporting his family, as if it’s him and not Hashem. As crazy as Kalev saying that MOSHE split the sea, brought down manna, and flew in quail (see Rashi above). Or imagine if Moshe would have called Moshiach “Hashem’s shliach” to take the Jews out of golus (Rashi Shemos 4:13). As if G-d has partners! Pfft!“

Of course it’s perfectly normal, there’s no problem in the trinity which is a שותפות for goyim

Yankel,

To clarify: I completely agree with your interpretation of all the quotes. However, it is obvious to anyone (who isn’t trying to prove negative things) that the Rebbe meant it exactly as they all meant it.

To the group

This morning I made a simple request to Menachem Shmei to actually formulate a question which I’ll try to answer. Shmei cites my request and continues to call me a liar for not answering his non-existent question(s). This is bordering on schizophrenia territory.

To Menachem Shmei

The moderators and myself are Yirei Shomayim. We understand the gravity of denigrating a Godol B’Yisroel. Therefore I would never say the things I’ve said about Oso Harebbe unless I was absolutely certain that my contentions are correct. In addition I have spoken to my Rabbonim and they are in complete agreement with me. Moreover, the moderators obviously agree with me or they wouldn’t print what I’ve said. As I’ve stated on numerous occasions, the Rebbe rejected open Gemaras because they were at odds with his agenda.

This morning I made a simple request to Menachem Shmei to actually formulate a question which I’ll try to answer. Shmei cites my request and continues to call me a liar for not answering his non-existent question(s). This is bordering on schizophrenia territory.

See my post #2306326 from August 18 2:54 pm, where I reposted a question that challenges your false accusation that a certain obscure Lubavitch teaching is AZ ch”v.

It’s in clear and simple English.

[It was a long post, and was already posted twice, so I don’t think it’s fair to the readers to copy paste it all over again.]

“A] none of them said anything about themselves, always about their rebbeim with no implication about themselves”
אמר ריש לקיש ויקרא לו אל אלהי ישראל, אמר אתה אלוה בעליונים ואני אלוה בתחתונים.
“He established there an altar, and called it [vayikra lo] El” – Reish Lakish said: “And called it El, God of Israel” – he said: ‘You are God of the heavenly, and I am the ruler of the earthly.’
Bereshit Rabbah
79
Etz Yosef on Bereishit Rabbah 79:8:1
אר”ל ויקרא לו כו’ פירושו שיעקב קרא לעצמו אל (יפ”ת ונזה”ק) וע”ש:
Rashi
נוטל שררה לעצמך. שקרא עצמו אל:

and here is the gemara in megillah 18a
(all the litvaks should know this gemara “cuz they learn much more gemara than us”
And Rabbi Aḥa further said that Rabbi Elazar said: From where is it derived that the Holy One, Blessed be He, called Jacob El, meaning God? As it is stated: “And he erected there an altar, and he called it El, God of Israel” (Genesis 33:20). It is also possible to translate this as: And He, i.e., the God of Israel, called him, Jacob, El. Indeed, it must be understood this way, as if it enters your mind to say that the verse should be understood as saying that Jacob called the altar El, it should have specified the subject of the verb and written: And Jacob called it El. But since the verse is not written this way, the verse must be understood as follows: He called Jacob El; and who called him El? The God of Israel.

shlomo cunin was simply saying the same thing as a gemarah and medrash, whoever is honest knows that just like you dont attack the medrash or gemara for saying such a statement, rather look in the mefarshim so too dont attack r’ shlomo cunin, (a much bigger tzadik then all your rav, and rosh yeshiva)
if you want to understand the statement, for the 4th time learn the maamer hibabtzu 5668, this sefer is learned by almost every lubavitcher (in yeshiva) so we can speak in our language, just like when we talk to eachother we say or hakalul biatzmuso, and dont need to give a 9 hour class what it means like i would need to do if i wanted a non lubavitcher to understand what im talking about

@philosopher
what about the book “By the Hand of Hashem” Rabbi Yaakov Friedrich (Author)
you should burn the book, the rambam writes in hilchos teshuvah
Five individuals are described as Minim: …c) one who accepts that there is one Master [of the world], but maintains that He has a body or form;

Philosopher: Thank you so much for posting that video about Cunin and showing the insanity and avoda zara of Chabad-Lubavitch. For those who don’t know, S.B. Cunin is not a marginal figure in the Chabad-Lubavitch faith, someone that they could disclaim or disavow, by saying he is a recent, unrecognized shliach. Rather he is a major, major one, part of its establishment with deep roots there going back generations, well-connected to their late Rebbes. Note where he is prominently seated in the group photo when they get together in the fall, for a graphic illustration of his position in it. Or read up online for more info.

Yeah, I’m out. I think people on this thread know my opinions on the subject matters being discussed. However, IMO this has gone way to far with people being really nasty and taking things way too far.

To the group

Seichel uses classic Chabad “logic.” If you want to understand how the Rebbe became God study Chabad seforim. Boruch Hashem more and more people are waking up to the truth about Chabad. Hopefully the Gedolim will soon follow.

bottom line, i think we believe in different torahs. so you say im an idolater,
i would guess that would mean that i should have a lot of pity on you guys, who look at hashem as some interesting being (to say the least)
i wont call you guys any bad names cuz i beleive Hashem and the Rebbe dont want me to do that

My point was that it was not spoken about much, until it was released in newspaper articles filled with quotes and snippets taken out of context (or worse…) to make Lubavitch look bad to boost the political campaigns of the late 80s…
[shmei to yb]
—-
The so called ‘political campaigns of the late eighties’ you are referring to , probably allude to the establishment of Degel in the Israeli elections of 1988 or 1989.

You have it upside down here .

Degel’s establishment was a REACTION to habads theologically losing its way , and the inability of those concerned to mount a public protest , due to the concentration of power in the hands of habads protectors.

THE CONCERN ABOUT HABADS WAYS PRECEDED THIS ELECTION CYCLE BY MANY YEARS , IF NOT DECADES.
And was a CAUSE of the split. Not the other way.

Again , another indication of the failure of habad apologists of grasping the seriousness of the issue at hand.