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I’ve never in my life been a Lubavitcher.
To pekak
So why do you use deceit to defend them?
qwerty613
I don’t know which question you are referring to, sorry
@ always ask: This book has enormous number of citations, I never saw anything documented as well as this sefer. S
So great that’s my point. (I wrote that he makes up stuff, I came acroos a hakria vihakdusha he openly twisted the words (even though he quotes the source) and therefore calls it kefira. (you can check the original yourself)
LemaysehGreat point – it is very important to know that the Agudas Harabbonim, of which Rav Moshe was President in his later years, had a Lubavitcher secretary, by the name of Avrohom Shmuel Lewin,
Meaning they did not have an issue with Chabad. Reb moshe passed away before the big focus on the rebbe was moshiach started, but you can NOT decide what he would have held. As I mentioned before reb moshe backed the rebbe’s mivtzoim and the parade even though R’ shach wrote against it. The sicha that the rebbe is atzmus inclothed in a body was said over 30 yrs before R moshe was niftar, and printed over 20 yrs – in the 60s.
People keep claiming that we believe the rebbe is g-d, and that sicha is kefira ch”v, well all the gedolim were around then.@yeserbius Neither of you have taken up my challenge: Go find a RANDOM selection of non-Chabad Rabbonim and ask them if it’s OK to believe that a dead man is Moshiach. If you want, you can even start with Rav Breitowitz SHLITA
There is a video of Rav breitowitz talking about the lubavitchers who believe the rebbe is moshiach, its on youtube, he said there is nothing wrong as mentioned before he wrote a haskama to a sefer too@square root: see what I wrote to lemayse.
@yankel berel : in the times of the baal hatanya, the misnagdim accused chassidim of praying to the rebbe, the rebbe as being a cult leader, it being a new religion – go learn history, read yehoshu mundshin’s books, he brings all the Russian documents from the arrest of the baal hatanya. It’s a fact
Today people without opening up a Tanya, decide that the baal hatanya went with the litvishe derecho, its only today all the Chabad things started. Go open a Tanya
I’ll make a bet, anyone who brings a sicha, maamer, letter, etc of the Rebbe (My rebbe) that I can not find a makor in the seforim of the baal hatanya or his son the miteler rebbe – ill resign from being a chassid (I would give you money if you want $500)To Lostspark
As Seichel 83 said it’s Number 102 But put in 1/28/17 and the name of the program was Revisiting our Relationship with Chabad. That should work.
To Pekak
I study Gemara about seven hours a day and that sharpens the mind. Your expression is very strange, “I’ve never in my life been a Lubavicher.” If you’re not Chabad just say, “I’m not Chabad.” The fact they you gave such a wordy response calls to mind the Bard, “Methinks thou doth protest too much.” Yes, I’m pretty sure you’re lying. And even if you aren’t Chabad, you’re lying about Chabad not telling people to remove their shoes at the Ohel. I know because it was personally said to me and my credentials for honesty are well established.
To Lostspark
It’s Lichtenstein Headlines 102 1/28/17 Revisiting Chabad.
Qwerty,
You keep mocking how I ran away from questions.
I literally answered dozens of your posts, and the thread you mentioned continued until it was closed by the moderator because of YOUR posts.
Your posts now continue to be filled with absolute nonsense and hate speech, denouncing entire groups of Jews as heretics and liars.
You come up with the most ridiculous taanos (shoes at the ohel, etc.). I’m honestly surprised that the other non Lubavitchers on this thread don’t try to distance themselves from you.
I have stopped answering your bogus arguments because
א קאפ קען מען ניט ארויפשטעלןNow you can go ahead and write “checkmate” for the umpteenth time. The equivalent of a child who covers his ears screaming “blah blah blah, I won, I won!”
It’s very interesting that your screen name is Sechel being that חב״ד comes from the ראשי תיבות of חכמה בינה ודעת, (what נוסח ספרד says at אתה חונן) whereas נוסח אשכנז says דעה בינה והשכל the is be of the differences is השכל which נוסח ספרד (or in your case אר״י) which is your screen name
In other words חב״ד doesn’t use שכלIt’s unfortunate that you spent time creating this vort.
The ten kochos hanefesh are split into two categories: שכל and מדות.
שכל is made up of חכמה בינה דעת
מדות is made up of חג”ת נהי”מThus, this purim torah doesn’t even begin to work. Try something else.
To Seichel 83
There were five questions. They are all addressed to you I only want your opinion.1. Do you believe the Rebbe was, is or will be Moshiach?
2. Do you believe that the Rebbe runs the world?
3. Do you believe that the Rebbe is physically alive or dead?
4. Do you believe that the Rebbe was/is a Novi?
5. Do you believe the Rebbe is/was god clothed in human form?@sechel83 You’re still picking and choosing Rabbonim who (you believe) already agree with you. Considering his less than enthusiastic endorsement of that meshichist book, and his reputation as a massive Talmid Chacham, I highly doubt Rav Breitowitz SHLITA will give you a “There’s nothing wrong with it” answer if you ask him straight out. My point is that the vast majority of non-Chabad Rabbonim hold that there’s something wrong with believing that a dead man can be Moshiach. You can learn that yourself if you just do my quick experiment. Or you can continue to sit in ignorance. Your call.
@qwerty youre such a lier, you dont learn gemarah for 7 hours a day, its not possible for a person who learns 7 hrs a day to write such kefira and non sence
“To the group
Do any Lubavitchers still keep my the 9 days? I think that the Rebbe encouraged Siyumim so that his Chasidim would imagine themselves as having already been redeemed. BTW how many of those Siyumim are Halachially valid?”
PSA chabad does not eat meat or drink wine by the siyum!!!I listened to the podcast, in no way do any of the Poskim interviewed dismiss the entirety of ChaBaD.
I implore everyone to listen to this podcast, it’s probably the best counter to everything qwerty has to say.
In no way does R. Shachter condemn the entirety of ChaBaD during this interview, he expresses concern about a rumored small contingent in ChaBaD that may or may not be davening to the Rebbe chas v’shalom. I agree 100% that is avodah zarah and should be rightly called out. To condemn the entire movement is a major shtus as expressed by the yeshivish rabbonim on this podcast.
To Seichel
Let’s put aside Lichtenstein s program. I want to know what you think. 1. Is the Rebbe physically alive? 2. Is he Moshiach? 3. Is he god clothed in human form? 4. Does he run the world? 5. Is/was he a Novi?
1 he’s found in the physicall world more now than 31 yrs ago (see tanya igeres hatshuvah perek 27)
2 a rebbe by definition is moshiach – see kuntres inyana shel toras hachasidus
3 the rebbe is not g-d ch”v. if you want to understand what that sicha means, and why the gedolim who saw it did not have an issue with it, just like they did not have an issue with the medrash and gemarah that calls yaakov avinu “g-d” (see below) see maamer הקבצו ושמעו in המשך הידוע
ד״יום טוב של ראש השנה – תרס״ו״
והנה במד״ר אמרו ושמעו אל ישראל אביכם, אל הוא ישראל אביכם, מה
הקב״ה בורא עולמות, אף אביכם בורא עולמות, מה הקב״ה מחלק עולמות, אף אביכם מחלק עולמות וכ״ה בגמ׳ מגילה די״ח א׳ ע״פ ויקרא לו אל אלקי ישראל, אלקי ישראל קרא ליעקב אל ובזהר איתא ג״כ קוב״ה קרא ליעקב אל. וכ״ה במדרש ע״פי ויקרא לו אל כו׳, אני אלקה בעליונים ואתה אלוה בתחתונים(כ״ה הגי׳ בילקוטי). וצ״ל איך שייך לומר כן על יעקב שלמטה
the maamer goes on to explain what it means (its from the rashab)
4 see the above quote about yaakov, explanation is there what it means
5 – the rambam writes that someone who predicts the future is a navi, its one of the 13 ikrim, one must beleive so. so yes definatly.
back to you 1) is yaakov g-d? does he create worlds? if not is the author of medrash and gemara a min? an oved ovada zara????“The ten kochos hanefesh are split into two categories: שכל and מדות.
שכל is made up of חכמה בינה דעת
מדות is made up of חג”ת נהי”מ”Wow
So the אנשי כנסת הגדולה didn’t realize that דעת & בינה is part of סכל
I guess חב״ד thought they were so dumb
I don’t use deceit. I also don’t know what was “wordy” about what I said. I shared my personal experience. If they told me that I can’t enter wearing shoes I’d skip it entirely. The minhag of taking off shoes at kivrei tzaddikim is a regional thing. If you would go to Anipoli Where the Mezritcher Maggid and the Rebbe Reb Zisha are buried there’s a shul there with a sefer that talks about it. At one time all of the Volhiner chassidusen had that minhag. I guess Poland, Galicia, and Hungary didn’t have that minhag.
Haha coffee just accept you wasted your time on coming up with nonsense lol.
To Seichel
I wake up at 4:30 in the morning and I learn for 2 and a half hours, until Shachris at 7:00. Then I learn for an hour on the train while going to work that’s 3.5 hours. I learn about 2 hours a day at my office between patients. That’s 5.5 hours. Another hour on the train going home. Finally I learn for a half hour between Mincha and Maariv. Some days it’s more than 7 some days it’s less depending on how busy I am at work. Don’t you dare call me a liar. By the way learn how to spell liar and nonsense you numb-skull. As the Gemara says, if you accuse someone of something it’s what you’re guilty of. Q.E.D you are a liar as are Ruba Druba of Lubavichers.
To Lostspark
No one said that Rabbi Shachter or any of the Rabbis on that show offered a blanket condemnation of Chabad. Rabbi Shachter said that some Lubavichers daven to the Rebbe and that’s Avodah Zarah. Then Kotlarsky had the nerve to deny that “any” Lubavicher davens to the Rebbe. I guess he wasn’t aware of the psycho Cunin who stated on YouTube that the Rebbe runs the world. Since it’s the Rebbe and not Hashem, who’s in charge, Cunin obviously davens to him. Since Krinsky and Kotlarsky refused to criticize Cunin it means they endorse him and according to Rabbi Akiva anyone who supports idolatry is an Idolater. So let’s hear you write to the group that Cunin is an idolater and should be removed from his position.
Sheker VeChazav
There were no complaints from the Leaders of the mitnagdim that the hasidim pray to their rebbi.
Read all the haramim by the rabanim of those times against the hasidim .
Only a naive person will believe everything [especially if convenient] which happens to be printed.
The issues against hasidim then , and the issues against habad now , are totally different.
It is clear that the last leader of habad changed a lot of things ,both in practice and in theology.
And it is these innovations which are the issue.
[Mis]Using the authority of previous habad rebbeim for new self serving innovations , equals moral bankrupcy.To yankel berel
Your post is well taken. Too many of the posters are afraid to acknowledge that the Rebbe is to blame for Chabadianity. One of Rav Moshe’s grandsons told me that I was completely correct about Chabad but not about the Rebbe. I asked him why he said this and he told me that a number of people he trusts told him that the Rebbe was beyond reproach .I told him to give me those Rabbis phone numbers and I’ll set them straight. In the Yeshiva world too much emphasis is put on Torah knowledge. Yes the Rebbe was a gaon in Torah, but he rejected open Gemaras that didn’t jibe with his agenda.
sechel > it is very important to know that the Agudas Harabbonim, of which Rav Moshe was President in his later years, had a Lubavitcher secretary, by the name of Avrohom Shmuel Lewin,
Maybe I was not clear – this Rav called _Lubavitcher Rebbe_ secretariate when _Lubavitcher Rebbe_ was incapacitated, and they responded that they do not support people running around calling Rebbe maschiach and ask that Rav to publicize this message, and that is what he did.
sechel > you can check the original yourself
Hm, you might point me to which of 900+ pages you are referring to. I looked somehwat closely at a number of footnotes and they all looked reasonable and corresponded to what I knew from other sources.
So based on your logic R. Lichtenstein is an idol worshipper for giving ChaBaD a haskama and associating with R. Kolartsky?
qwerty > Yes the Rebbe was a gaon in Torah, but he rejected open Gemaras that didn’t jibe with his agenda.
L Rebbe tried to address important issues of his generation, some of these new issues that did not exist before and with innovations that did not exist before. It is always easy to criticize those who try to do something. Those who disregarded Jews who were assimilating; Israelis; Russians behind Iron Curtain did not do controversial things, so nothing to criticize for.
qwerty > Yes the Rebbe was a gaon in Torah, but he rejected open Gemaras that didn’t jibe with his agenda.
L Rebbe tried to address important issues of his generation, some of these new issues that did not exist before and with innovations that did not exist before. It is always easy to criticize those who try to do something. Those who disregarded Jews who were assimilating; Israelis; Russians behind Iron Curtain did not do controversial things, so nothing to criticize for.
To Lostspark
I will reiterate what I said. Ruba Druba of Lubavitchers are liars. But each has his own style. Rabbi Schachter didn’t say “a rumored small contingent in Chabad who may or may not be davening to the Rebbe.” Those are your words the words of a liar. What the Rosh Yeshiva said is that some Lubavitchers daven to the Rebbe and this is idolatry. He was very clear. I don’t lie because my G-d hates liars. But your dead god was a liar so Kal VChomer his followers. As for Lichtenstein having the din of an idolater that’s for Hashem to decide.
Checkmate
You can’t whine your way out of this one.
Inquisitor QWERTY has indicted himself in idol worship by davening in a ChaBaD Shul.
“ according to Rabbi Akiva anyone who supports idolatry is an Idolater.”
To always
I see. So according to you when there’s a pressing need one is allowed to change the Torah. Thank you for agreeing with with me that the Rebbe was a reformed Rabbi.
@qwerty
I do not blame the habad hasidim .
I admire them .
They follow faithfully, and blindly.They are – in my opinion at least – not any less than ‘tinokot shenishbu’.
They swallow their leaders bait, hook line and sinker.
No wonder they do what they do, and think what they think.If they would start thinking [even for a mashehu] for themselves , instead of blindly regurgitating all the nonsense they are being force fed for the last 8 decades , then there would be some glimmers of hope for their future.
OO no
To yankel berel
Hashem will decide if they’re Tinkos Shenishba. Since they know enough to lie and cover up for their dead god I’m not so sure.
To Lostspark
Congratulations you bear me lol. Until the Gedolim pasken that davening in a Chabad minyan is Assur I’ll continue to do so. Nice try.
“The rebba is alive now more than he was 31 years ago”- That’s evading the question, he is in fact no longer alive, no matter what he wrote in a sicha
“A rebbe is mashiach by definition”. That is ludicrous on it’s face, and doesn’t really deserve a rebuttal. But for entertainment value I invite you to walk into 770 and yell ” Yechi Hamelech Mashiach Admor M’Satmer Lolam Va’ed”.To skripka
The reason I asked Seichel to answer my questions is because I wanted his answers There are mainstream Jews who still refuse to accept that Chabadianity is nothing but insanity. The more that these lunatics express their views the clearer this truth becomes.
“My point is that the vast majority of non-Chabad Rabbonim hold that there’s something wrong with believing that a dead man can be Moshiach. You can learn that yourself if you just do my quick experiment. Or you can continue to sit in ignorance. Your call.”
please bring one open statement from a non chabad rov that there’s something wrong with believing that a dead man can be Moshiach, and one who says its kefira will be better.
@qwerty sorry to call you a liar, but you dont seem learned at all to me. and from your posts its a bunch of he said, he said, no logic. i would like to discuss the gemara youre learning on a different thread with you
@always i dont have the book infront of me but he quotes the kriah vihakdusha with the exact reference, changes it, and writes that some misnagdim called it kefira, typicall misnaged move, just like this thread and the yaated naaman.anyone looked up the medrash, gemarah and zohar that calls Yaakov Avinu G-D? anyone have an issue?
“ Until the Gedolim pasken that davening in a Chabad minyan is Assur I’ll continue to do so”
Why haven’t they paskened so? If ChaBaD is so trief why haven’t modern Poskim put them all in cherem?
I find that emphasizing limud l’chol in yeshivas like YU is far more problematic than some nut jobs in 770 allegedly davening to the Rebbe.
qwerty > So according to you when there’s a pressing need one is allowed to change the Torah.
this is not what I said. Maybe you need to explain what Gemorah contradictions you mean. And I would presume R Feinstein and people of his stature would have pointed it out. What I do mean is that often new circumstances require different actions. Gemora itself brings enough examples – such as writing down Torah ShebAlpe, changing how to organize schools based on whether the approach worked out, etc. I imagine every time someone suggested to change how school worked, someone else said – this is against what chachamim said. L Rebbe definitely cared about Am Yisroel and tried to do something about it. Was he always right and were there negative side effects? This is a separate question that may take some time to answer.
To always
You’re a decent person so I’ll address your comments accordingly..I certainly agree that when there’s a pressing need innovation is called for. Sarah Shenirer is a prime example. But the Rebbe rejected open Gemaras. The Gemara says that there is no Nevuah until Moshiach. The Rebbe said that certain individuals did attain that status including his father-in-law. With that statement his followers assumed that he’s also a Navi. Therefore when he said that Moshiach’s arrival is imminent they accepted it as a Nevuah and so it can’t be challenged. There’s more but I want to respond to the other posters.
To Lostspark
When the subject of Lubavitchers davening to the Rebbe came up you dismissed it like Kotlarsky. Now you change your tune and say it’s just a few nut jobs. In fact it’s a significant percentage and since the leadership refuses to say anything it becomes Shtika Kihoda. Nice try to shift the focus to YU but that’s not the subject of this thread. As for why the Gedolim haven’t ruled that Chabad is illegitimate. That was a major topic in Dr. Berger’s book. He said that all the Gedolim he spoke to agreed with him but said they didn’t want to get involved. It’s not my place to challenge them.
To Seichel
I learn Avodah Zarah, Berachos and Shabbos..Most of the time is on Berachos. I try to make a Siyum every year for my Chabad shul on Erev Pesach. By the way I take about 25 hours to learn a blatt, because I write questions and answers. I have haskama from R Dovid Feinstein’s son-in-law so I could care less what you think. As for your statement that the Rebbe declared himself the Bore Olam in the sixties and Rav Moshe didn’t protest. Real Jews don’t believe that their Rabbis are prophets. Rav Moshe didn’t have spies reporting to him as to what was going on in CH.
Xtianity did not turn treif in one go .
Until it established trinity [a’l] as its doctrine , more than 300 years passed . They only went step by step . They kept on moving .. Over 300 years. Lets hope habad is not going to move any further , they moved enough already . Too much.A rebbe is mashiach by definition”. That is ludicrous on it’s face, and doesn’t really deserve a rebuttal.
===
Correct.To Lostspark
“Some nut jobs in 770 allegedly davening to the Rebbe.,” That would include Rabbi Cunin who stated that the Rebbe runs the world. That is clear-cut idolatry. He is in charge of thousands of Lubavitchers. So no this isn’t about a a few psychotics in CH. The Chazakah is that all Lubavitchers are idolaters.
Lostspark, learning to earning a living is more problematic than possible A’Z?
To always
Thank you for your comment. I don’t write to change Chabad’s “,mind ” They are idolaters and by definition they are no longer in charge of their senses. I write to reach people like you who aren’t convinced as to the depths of Chabad’s depravity. The more they respond the . more obvious it is that their religion is not Judaism. And don’t think that the Rebbe gets a pass. Unfortunately most Jews who’ve decided that Chabad is kosher will ignore the facts at all costs. But I’m glad that you see what a despicable liar Lostspark is. He’ll say anything to cover up for his fellow zombies.
@sechel83 There are hundreds of quotes, but I thought Rav Aharon Feldman’s public letter was more well know. He says that anyone who believes that a dead man is Moshiach is dangerous and one should not associate with them nor entertain their beliefs. He’s one of the heads of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah and pretty much everyone else on it agrees with him on that.
To Yserbius
Rav Aharon is one of the few Rabbinic leaders who has spoken out against Chabad and he has done so for years. He said that the Meshichistim don’t bother him, it’s the Elokistim, those who believe that the Rebbe is god who worry him. It’s becoming more and more apparent that those Lubavitchers who think that the Rebbe is Moshiach also think that he’s god. If that sounds like Christianity it’s because it is the same. T he problem with Chabad is that if a Rabbi doesn’t publicly denounce them they announce that such Rabbi endorses them. Even those Rabbis who did endorse Chabad like Miller and Sacks would reject the idea that he’s Moshiach or god.
@qwerty613 I was asked to provide one Rov, I provided the words of one Rov.
Rav Feldman SHLITA is simply one of the more outspoken gedolim against certain Chabad beliefs and practices in the sense that he publicly condemns things that most other Rabbonim have on written record as being saying. And he’s not some small fringe Rov, he’s the Rosh Yeshiva of one of the biggest, oldest, and most important Yeshivos in the US, and the head of the Moetzes. Furthermore, if you read his letter, he absolutely says that Meshichistim are dangerous and a huge problem.
To Yserbius
It sounds like you’re challenging me but we’re totally on the same page. Rabbi Feldman is courageous and has taken a public stand but I know many other mainstream Rabbis who are fully aware of the Chabad scourge but they don’t want to get involved. It’s amazing how these Lubavichers keep pitching. Menachem Shmei disappeared because he realized the futility of their cause. He can protest otherwise but no one is buying his nonsense. Boruch Hashem Lostspark and Seichel haven’t given up. The lunacy that they present does more to damage Chabadianity than anything we mainstream posters can say. It calls to mind the sage words of Mark Twain, “When you keep your mouth shut I only think you’re stupid, but when you open it all doubt is removed.”
@qwerty “I learn Avodah Zarah, Berachos and Shabbos..Most of the time is on Berachos. I try to make a Siyum every year for my Chabad shul on Erev Pesach. By the way I take about 25 hours to learn a blatt, because I write questions and answers. ”
which blatt? lets discuss the sugya!
also anyone looked up the medrash, gemarah and zohar that calls Yaakov Avinu G-D? and creator of worlds? anyone have an issue?
@yserbius as qwertny wrote ” He said that the Meshichistim don’t bother him, it’s the Elokistim, those who believe that the Rebbe is god who worry him.” i saw the letter, he writes he heard lubavitchers in benching say “boreinu” could he thats what he heard, sometimes people hear things they assume or imagine, boreinu is very similar to moreinu.
and you looked up the medrash, gemarah and zohar that calls Yaakov Avinu G-D? and creator of worlds? you have an issue? what’s the difference?qwerty, I know plenty of Chabadnikim who are wonderful people, cared about many others, live ehrliche life, etc. I might disagree with some of them on some issue, but have no disagreements with others. I do know many who are not good and pretty clearly off. It seems to me that there are more of latter ones that are younger, and it is not simply an issue of age, as I remember the good ones being younger ;). So, I do not want to disrespect the good ones by focusing on the bad ones.
It also seems that (1) those who were closer to LR in time are better (that would mean that the Rebbe himself was a good influence), but (2) the movement is not aging well, so they were not able to establish a system that will work for the next generation. So, they risked their lives and their children’s lives to help other Yidden, and there was some risks envolved, something worked out, something did not. Again, the movements who only cared about their own, should not be criticizing.
Meshichistim give xtianity a back handed hechsher.
Ramban writes very clearly in his sefer havikuach that we know “j” is not mashiach because he died.I had a xtian asking me – if ‘your rabbi’ is coming back to finish the job , why can’t mine come back to finish the job ?
Either you eat the cake or you keep it. You cannot have it both ways.
.To always
I agree with you that there are many wonderful Lubavitchers. The Rabbis of the shul I go to are terrific and we’ve been friends for years. However I heard the following from two of the congregants, “Everything we have in our lives comes from the Rebbe. To which the other said, “Of course, we live in the shadow of the Rebbe.,” These are Russian Jews who didn’t know Aleph Bes ten years ago. The Rabbis never mention Hashem. It’s a steady diet of the Rebbe and the people automatically become believers. I’m not telling you what to believe. I like that you have a mind of your own, but according to my observations the Rebbe is very much to blame.
To Seichel
I take about 25 hours for every blatt. I’ve been learning Shabbos for more than 12 years. I have a certain system. I’m answering you because I try to answer each question. Now you have an annoying habit of misquoting people. First you said that the Rabbis on Lichtenstein s program said that the Rebbe is Moshiach which was a total lie, now you accuse me of comparing Elokistim and Meshichistim. I didn’t say that. It was Rav Aharon Feldman. As far as I’m concerned every Lubavicher has the Din of an Elokistim because no one criticizes the maniacs like you and Cunin who claim that the Rebbe is god. As for your Midrash., I agree with it. My name is Yaakov and so you’ve convinced me that I’m god who created worlds. But seriously if you think that Midrashim must all be accepted literally then you obviously believe that Adam had relations with every creature in the universe on the day he was created.
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