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@lostspark The Rebbi died before fulfilling what mashiach is meant to do, therefore he wasn’t actually mashiach.
And don’t say Second Coming, that excuse was already taken. You want your new religion to be original.
The Gemara does NOT say Mashiach can come from the dead! It’s straight out in Rashi! Or does Chabad not hold by Rashi either?
To Lostspark
Right. He became Moshiach before he died, but no one knows about it.
To Menachem Shmei
I figured checkmate would bring you out of the closet. I guess CS won’t be far behind. Seichel is busy trying to decide which lie you tell.@sechel83 I listened to bits of the podcast you mentioned and while I heard Rav Schachter condemn many Chabadskers for worshipping a man, I did not hear him say that it’s OK to believe that Moshiach can come from the dead. Neither did I hear any of those other Rabbonim say such a thing. Regarding the “Kuntrus Shmo Shel Moshiach” you should read those haskomos a little more carefully. Rav Breitowitz and Rav Cohen are giving the most lukewarm approval for the kuntrus, and are both very adamant that Moshiach cannot be a dead man. The haskomos are basically saying that there may be some poskim who hold that it’s not outright kefira to believe so.
I am forced to conclude that your beliefs are biasing your senses into misinterpreting things you hear.
The Rebbe for his entire nasius talked many times over that the previous Rebbe (Rayatz) was nistaliek but regardless among the chassidim. In the very story on hei teves regarding the ownership of the sefarim it was considered insane to think the R. Rayatz was niftar, so there was no concept of inheritance in the matter.
Was this considered avodah zarah?
@qwerty you mean this ?Chabad resembles Judaism in that you keep Jewish rituals. Chabad resembles Christianity because your focus is on a dead Jew rather than a Living God. Look how you twist yourself like a pretzel to try to convince yourself tand others that Rabbis outside of Chabad think that the Rebbe is Moshiach. I’ll quote one of my Rabbeinu who never criticizes Chabad or anyone because he’s a Talmid of Rav Pam. “The belief that the Rebbe is Moshiach is not part of normative Judaism.” As far your statement that distinguished Rabbis say that the Rebbe is Moshiach. There are Rabbis who will say that Moshiach can come from the dead, although the Chofetz Chaim paskened otherwise. However those Rabbis have never said the Rebbe is the dead person that the Gemara is referring to.
bologna you
To Yserbius
You’re absolutely right. I don’t understand why such brilliant Rabbis have anything to do with Chabad. If you shake hands with a Lubavicher he takes it as an acceptance of the Rebbe as your savior. Rav Moshe accepted Rabbeinu Tam Tefilin from Chabad. He looked at it as a Mitzvah opportunity. They brag that this constituted Rav Moshe’s acknowledgment of the Rebbe’s superiority.
Sechel,
I’m posting this and I hope you don’t take too much offense to it (I’ve been thinking about it since I saw your name originally, just didn’t know if I should say it or not)
It’s very interesting that your screen name is Sechel being that חב״ד comes from the ראשי תיבות of חכמה בינה ודעת, (what נוסח ספרד says at אתה חונן) whereas נוסח אשכנז says דעה בינה והשכל the is be of the differences is השכל which נוסח ספרד (or in your case אר״י) which is your screen name
In other words חב״ד doesn’t use שכל
שכל is the פרצוף comprised of חכמה בינה ודעת
Maybe I missed your point?
To Lostspark
No one called the Rebbe an idolater although the Gadol Hador did call him insane. We, in this and other sites, are calling Lubavitchers who worship the Rebbe
and impute to him godlike qualifies idolaters.To Seichel
You still haven’t answered my questions. The real G-d will ask them to you at 120. If you refuse to answer you’ll get a one way ticket to spend eternity with your Rebbe.
@Lostspark I know this is a Chabad thread, but maybe you can speak in terms familiar to those outside of Chabad? Like what do you mean “the Rebbe’s nisiyus”? What is the “seforim story of heh teiveis”. Who thought the previous Rebbe (and by this I assume you mean the Lubavitcher Rebbe before Rav MM Schneerson ZT”L. Because technically the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe is the one who passed on 25 years ago, since there’s no current Rebbe.).
But if as you imply, there were people saying that a dead man is still alive, then yes. That would be considered either avodah zara, or stupidity to literally any frum Yid.
To the group
I recently returned to the group, but for the past several months I was doing battle on VIN. Interestingly there I had to fight Lubavitchers and mainstream Jews. The former engage in mindless name calling, but its the latter who really irk me. They refuse to accept that Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is Moshiach and certainly the Rebbe is god clothed in human form. They maintain that there are a handful of crazies but Ruba Druba of Lubavitchers are normal.
YS> Neither did I hear any of those other Rabbonim say such a thing
This is a serious matter, more important than potential A’Z! YS who seems to be a reliable poster says that the claim of what was in podcast is incorrect. Could we clear this item? Hopefully, this a misunderstanding/misinterpretation or a poster referred to a different podcast? Otherwise, using a deliberate wrong reference makes this whole discussion meaningless. Why argue with people who can not be trusted in their argument? I hope there are other volunteers to listen to the podcast (not me, sorry).
“But if as you imply, there were people saying that a dead man is still alive, then yes. That would be considered either avodah zara, or stupidity to literally any frum Yid.“
So according to your point you are literally saying chazal are stupid or idol worshippers for telling the story of R. Yehuda HaNasi?
I’m curious what are the agreed upon qualifications for someone to be considered a tzadik by the majority of yidden?
QWERTY, I hope you know what you are doing disparaging the Rebbe.
I 100% believe if you saw the Rebbe walking by you would stand just like everyone else in here. Believe it or not I would definitely stand for litvish “gedolim” out if respect of their learning.QWERTY is a fitting name considering what a cowardly keyboard warrior you are, I doubt your even a doctor and are probably saying this all from your parents basement lol.
Lostspark, that last paragraph was really uncalled for, and is beneath you.
To always
I’m surprised that you think it’s a Chiddush that Lubavitchers would lie. Their entire religion is a lie. But you’re right. To blatantly lie and think you can fool others as well as Hashem is, perhaps, worse than idolatry. I heard the program when it first aired and none of the Rabbis endorsed the idea that the Rebbe is Moshiach. I, unlike Chabad, don’t lie.To Lostspark
As I wrote earlier for the past few months I was on VIN as the whole tooth. Why that name? Because I’m a successful dentist. As for the name qwerty my son thought of it. Yes I’m also happily married. And I’ve been writing for the JP for the past 40 years. I could go on but I’m from the LES and it’s not our Mehalech to brag. It’s sad that you think that by putting me down you can justify your empty existence.As for your statement that I would stand for the Rebbe. Yes I would. Rabbi Miller said that if Eisav came into the Bes Midrash we’d all stand up for him. The Rebbe was a gaon but also a heretic and I’ll prove that with your own words. You clearly accept the Gemara as evidenced by the fact that you quoted the story about Rebbe Hakodosh. Therefore you would be forced to agree that the Rebbe is a Kofer because he rejected open teachings of the Gemara.
@qwerty the quote that chabad is the closest religion to judaism was made before chabad ever said moshiach can be someone who died, and before the sicha about the rebbe being atzmus umehus in a guf was printed. (i.e. reb aharon kotler said such a statement (according to making of a gadal – who makes up many things so i dont know how trustworthy he is -) and he passed away before the sicha was printed.
the reason for that statement was becasue chabad as well as other chassidus, place the main focus on love and fear of hashem, kavanah, hachanos, etc.
the misnagdim who put the baal hatanya in prison, accused chassidim of being a cult with a leader, praying to the baal hatanya ch”v, the maggid, etc all the attacks that you think were craeted in the past 40 yrs. all old stuff, do your research.@qwerty reb moshe did not only shake hands with the rebbe, he openly wrote letters encouraging everything the rebbe did. these letters are available online,
ובדבר ענין נרות שבת לנערות, שהאדמו”ר מליובאוויטש שליט”א עוסק להנהיג בישראל, שאיזה אינשי אמרו שאני מנגד לענין זה. הנה מעולם לא שמעו ממני דבר כזה, בפרט שגם היו הרבה בשנים הקודמות שנהגו כן ברבים. ואם הרבי סובר שהוא ענין גדול לקרב בזה לתורה ולשמירת שבת, מי יכול לומר שאינו כן. ויצליחהו השי”ת בכוונתו לקדש שם שמים, וברצונו להרבות שומרי תורה ושומרי שבת בישראל”.
“בקשר עם מצב בריאותו של הגאון הצדיק האדמו”ר מליובאוויטש שליט”א, אשר שם לילות כימים בהרבצת התורה להחזקת היהדות, ובקירוב לבבות אחינו בני ישראל לאביהם שבשמים. הנני פונה בזה אל כבוד הרבנים שליט”א די בכל אתר ואתר, לדבר בבתי כנסיות ובבתי מדרשות, לעורר את אנשי קהילתם על דבר המבצעים הידועים של האדמו”ר מליובאוויטש לזכות את אחינו בני ישראל במצות תפילין מזוזה נרות שבת וכו’.. הרי בוודאי שכל פעולה במבצעים הנ”ל תחזק את בריאותו”.
he also took part in the siyum harambam (which r’ shach attacked) and encouraged the lag beomer parades (after r’ shach and the steipler signed against it)
all these you can find hand written letters or signitures from him
you guys are making all non sence
all the gedolim supported the rebbe and held of his as the gadal hador and many held he was moshiach (see i.e. rav aharon solovaitchiks letter in the jewish press, see rav britewitz video where he says that reb moshe saw it as a possibility that the rebbe is moshiach)DaMoshe apparently I’m not,
I apologize for being petty and crass.
I would say these things to you in person, so I shouldn’t say them online I’m guilty of what I accuse you of.
To seichel
You still refuse to answer my questions. I never said that Chabad is the closest religion to Judaism.. Chabad is Christianity with some meaningless rituals thrown in
To DaMoshe
Thanks for the support. Aside from the basic insanity of being a Lubavicher Lostspark is obsessed with me. I don’t know why but frankly I don’t care.
He ShOoK HaNdS WiTh ThE ReBbE So hE’S MaShIaCh……..
You Chabadevangelsits sound like you’re 5 years old. it has the same energy as my son “My tatty is a policeman and could beat up your Tatty!”
Qwerty > I’m surprised that you think it’s a Chiddush that Lubavitchers would lie. …To blatantly lie and think you can fool others as well as Hashem is, perhaps, worse than idolatry.
All I am saying that intellectual honesty is a prerequisite for a debate. Especially when you are talking in an anonymous forum. What is even the point of lying to someone you do not know personally? Self-gratification? then, go to your own group and talk to each other. We have here a rare chance of having a free-flowing discussion between people with different views and experiences. Lies just waste everyone’s time at best and, at worst, makes your own view less respectable.
So, as you have strong opinions, maybe you can go and re-check that podcast, and maybe someone pro-chabad can do that also, and report to us?
PS Interesting in Bava Basra 41, if we have two witnesses, one saying the loan is $100, and another $200, we do not conclude that at least $100 is owed – as one of the witnesses is evidently lying (or off his rocker), we have only one kosher witness. This underlines that if someone mis-reports something, we should not listen to the rest of his speech.
sechel> all the gedolim supported the rebbe and held of his as the gadal hador and many held he was moshiach
At minimum, I think LR, R Moshe and Rav YB Soloveichik had respectful relationships between each other. Maybe, as I once was told by a Rav about another Rav with whom I suggested a cooperation: “at least we learned not to hurt each other’s work”.
sechel? (according to making of a gadal – who makes up many things so i dont know how trustworthy he is -)
This book has enormous number of citations, I never saw anything documented as well as this sefer. Maybe you think so because you skipped over little numbers in the main text. These are called endnotes and refer to specific people and books. They are at the end of the book in fine print and are even more interesting than the main text.
ר׳ עקיבא thought bar kochba was moshiach too and he was bigger than all those gedolim however he realized he was wrong
Re Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l and Lubavitch – it is very important to know that the Agudas Harabbonim, of which Rav Moshe was President in his later years, had a Lubavitcher secretary, by the name of Avrohom Shmuel Lewin. So therefore purported statements by Rav Moshe from that period re Lubavitch need to be taken with at least a grain of salt, keeping that important detail in mind. וד”ל. Rav Moshe was then elderly and weaker physically. In fact, the only time (IIRC) that Rav Moshe was at 770 E.P. and met with the Lubavitch leader, was when he came to Crown Heights for the wedding of the aforementioned Lewin.
Also, it should be noted that Rav Moshe had already been niftar by the time the messianic frenzy of Chabad-Lubavitch peaked in the last years of their late leader’s life. So he did not see certain things. To claim that he gave a blanket endorsement of everything of Lubavitch from his time to eternity, is, of course, absurd.
Additionally, if he met the leader of the Chabad only one time in the circa forty five years when they overlapped in NYC, that itself speaks loudly.
@sechel83 Most Gedolei Yisroel held of the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZTL as a Gadol, even when the harshly criticized many of his actions. Rav Shach was at one point a near unapposed Manhig without equal and his opinions were reflections of what most Rabbonim felt. Namely (like Rav Moshe states in the letter you posted) that Rav Schneerson ZT”L was a Gadol whose kiruv program is unparalleled, a massive percentage of his Chassidim acted in ways contrary to Yiddishkeit and he failed in curbing them.
@Lostspark I do think it’s tipshus and bordeline Avodah Zara to take a very unique neis mentioned in the Gemara and say that it can apply to any arbitrary individual or situation.Neither of you have taken up my challenge: Go find a RANDOM selection of non-Chabad Rabbonim and ask them if it’s OK to believe that a dead man is Moshiach. If you want, you can even start with Rav Breitowitz SHLITA. Go to any Yeshivas or shul website, they almost have contact information. Just send them an email!
In a recent comment dated August 4, 2024, sechel83
claimed that Rabbi Moshe Feinstein [ZTL ZYA]
“openly wrote letters encouraging everything the rebbe did”.Since Rabbi Moshe Feinstein [ZTL ZYA] died in 1986 CE,
and Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson died in 1994,
this means that Rabbi Moshe Feinstein never saw
the many thousands of Chabad people who continued
to insist that their Rebbe was the Melech HaMashiach,
even after his death.We cannot know with certainty what Rabbi Moshe Feinstein
would have said about people who insist that the Chabad Rebbe
was the Melech HaMashiach, even after his death;
but given stories that I heard about him, I think he would
be very disappointed with the Meshichists and Elokists,
and he would tell Jews to not listen to them.sechel is spewing nothing more than classic habad misinformation and propaganda.
1] No one accused baal hatanya and early habad hassidim of praying to their rebbi.
2] The arguments against the current/previous rebbi of habad have nothing to do with the polemic about hassidism 200 – 250 years ago.
It is perfectly possible to fully side with the hasidim 200 years ago and still fully side with R Shach on this argument.
can only be a sign of lack of adequate responses if sehel reverts back to the old canard that the issues are somehow related.
sechel is spewing nothing more than classic habad misinformation and propaganda.
1] No one accused baal hatanya and early habad hassidim of praying to their rebbi.
2] The arguments against the current/previous rebbi of habad have nothing to do with the polemic about hassidism 200 – 250 years ago.
It is perfectly possible to fully side with the hasidim 200 years ago and still fully side with R Shach on this argument.
It can only be a sign of lack of adequate responses if sehel reverts back to the old canard that the issues are somehow related.
To Always
About 35 years ago Rabbi Dovid Hollander told me something very powerful, “Don’t try to understand a Rosho because you’re not a Rosho.” The point is that we think that all people have certain common beliefs and values, and so it’s pointless to lie, especially in an anonymous forum. You’re right that it makes no sense, but Lubavitchers are idolaters. Their entire existence revolves convincing themselves and others of their lies. So don’t be surprised by any tactic they use. Last year Menachem Shmei started a thread intended as an “open discussion” with non-Lubavichers but he ultimately realized he couldn’t convince real Jews of the Chabad garbage so he disappeared. Our mission is to speak forcefully against this scourge because too many great Rabbis make the mistake of giving Chabad tacit and sometimes outright acceptance.
To the group
Do any Lubavitchers still keep my the 9 days? I think that the Rebbe encouraged Siyumim so that his Chasidim would imagine themselves as having already been redeemed. BTW how many of those Siyumim are Halachially valid?Is going to the kever of a tzadik to daven avodah zarah?
Lostspark, going to a kever is not avodah zarah by itself, it’s the tefillah you daven there that makes the difference. If you daven to Hashem and ask that the zchusim or the tzaddik should help your tefillos, that’s fine. But if you daven to the tzaddik, it’s assur.
To Lostspark
The answer to your question is no. There’s nothing wrong with davening at the kever of a Tzaddik. But going to the Ohel is a problem because Chabad considers the Rebbe god clothed in human form. As proof people who come there must take off their shoes because it’s holy ground.
Nobody is forced to take off their shoes. The minhag of taking off the shoes by kivrei tzaddikim has nothing to do with Lubavitch of today. Pick your battles.
@pekak I have never seen that by any other kever. It’s not admas kodesh, it’s a cemetery. There is a holy person buried there
You’ve apparently never left your comfort zone or learned many chassidishe sforim.
To Pekak
The Ohel is the only cemetery that “asks” people to remove their shoes. But I’ll accept that it’s only a Chabad minhag just like it’s only a Chabad minhag to think that your Rebbe is god. The reason Chabad wants people to take off their shoes at the Ohel is that they equate the Rebbe with Moshe Rabbeinu(R”L) Just as Moshe had to take off his boots at the Sneh so too we must follow suit.
To skripka
He was a genius, but calling him holy is highly questionable.
But if you daven to the tzaddik, it’s assur.
I agree.
SQRT> Rabbi Moshe Feinstein never saw the many thousands of Chabad people who continued to insist that their Rebbe was the Melech HaMashiach,
even after his death.Indeed, according to a contemporary public testimony of a Rav who spoke with L Rebbe’s office while he was incapacitated, they did not support the meshugas. Kal v’homer after petira, kal vehomer R Moshe v closest rebbe’s confidants.
To Lostspark
So do you agree that many Lubavichers are idolaters as Rav Herschel Schachter said on the Lichtenstein program? The Rosh Yeshiva said that many Lubavichers daven to the Rebbe instead of Hashem.
To Pekak
Name one non-Chabad Jewish cemetery where one is asked to remove his shoes. Checkmate.
@Pekak, as many mentioned, No one else asks to remove shoes. But maybe, the reason you guys do it is because you want to incorporate Islam into your cult
“ So do you agree that many Lubavichers are idolaters as Rav Herschel Schachter said on the Lichtenstein program? The Rosh Yeshiva said that many Lubavichers daven to the Rebbe instead of Hashem.”
Frankly I don’t care what they say. I had a bochur from YU ask me how kohanim can enter 770 since the Rebbes bones are interred in the bimah. I have never met a Lubavitcher that has davened to the Rebbe that is a crazy idea.
R. Schacter is holding pretty ignorantly if he really said this. I will look for the podcast tonight.
I’ve been to the Ohel. I never took off my shoes and I was never told to do so.
I can’t find said podcast what’s the name and date of it and I’ll have a go.
To Lostspark
Right. And there’s no such thing as a Lubavicher who believes that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form. This discussion has been going on for several weeks. So now you’ll listen to the podcast? I heard it when it aired. Rabbi Schachter said that many Lubavitchers daven to the Rebbe and not Hashem and that’s idolatry..Then Lichtenstein put on Kotlarsky who denied that any Lubavicher davens to the Rebbe. There used to be a commercial,”You don’t have to be Jewish to love Levy’s( bread) You don’t have to be a liar to be Chabad but it sure helps.
To Pekak
I went to the Ohel years ago and was told to remove my shoes. One of us is lying. I wonder if that’s a real Jew like me or a Lubavicher.
To Lostspark
Right. And there’s no such thing as a Lubavicher who believes that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form. This discussion has been going on for several weeks. So now you’ll listen to the podcast? I heard it when it aired. Rabbi Schachter said that many Lubavitchers daven to the Rebbe and not Hashem and that’s idolatry..Then Lichtenstein put on Kotlarsky who denied that any Lubavicher davens to the Rebbe. There used to be a commercial,”You don’t have to be Jewish to love Levy’s( bread) You don’t have to be a liar to be Chabad but it sure helps.
To Pekak
I went to the Ohel years ago and was told to remove my shoes. One of us is lying. I wonder if that’s a real Jew like me or a Lubavicher.
To skripka
They have already incorporated Islam into their religion. They lie to the infidels who don’t accept the Rebbe as their savior.
“I have never met a Lubavitcher that has davened to the Rebbe that is a crazy idea.“
You go around 770 and ask who they’re davening to or do they come to you and say “I davened to…”?
How would you know otherwise?
To Lostspark
The Rebbe’s bones are interred in 770, So what’s buried in Queens. Rav Schachter is holding pretty ignorantly if he said this. You said that you would stand for a Litvish godol. Now you call such a Godol stupid.
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