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To the group
I guess the question to ask is, “What’s next for Chabad?” Even though there’s plenty of trash in the Orthodox world, as we saw in this thread, at the end of the day they won’t sign on to Chabad’s godless Judaism. And despite their hype Chabad isn’t getting anywhere with disenfranchised Jews. The answer is to reach out to Christians. We see how excited they got when Milei and Trump visited the Ohel. Initially they’ll pretend that they’re advancing the Rebbe’s Ben Noach initiative but eventually they’ll make them Chabad. Just my theory.
To ARSo
I agree with you. Maybe yankel berel is using shtikah khodsah lav Davka. What he means is that Shmei knows he’s been defeated in this thread and so he has to find a different approach. Shmei and the others will never see the light because they’re idolaters.
Shtika Kehoda’a is a klal to be used in our context.
Definitely so, in my opinion at least. Think about it.There are many people who read this thread even if they do not actively participate.
Who like Habad, those absolute masters of PR , who act at their leader’s directive of “Hazaka Al Ta’amula she’eino hozeret reikam” , who don’t pass any opportunity to own the mic and to be mefarsem their shitah and their view.If those [good but] loud people are suddenly quiet, it is going against their grain.
For that to happen ,there must be a reason . And a good reason.The most simple reason is, that : whatever they are going to say, will reflect badly on them. So, cut your losses and move on to a topic where I can shine.
That’s what I meant with shtikah kehoda’ah.Not that they are modeh al ha’emet in their hearts.
They are too far gone for that.
But that their silence is proof that they do not have any good answers.Coffee addict,
What’s up with the non leather shoes, and walking out backwards. I’ve been to countless kivrei tzaddikim (רשב״י, רמב״ם, ר מאיר בעל הנס etc) and I don’t think breslovers have that rule (I have friends that went for Rosh Hashanah)
I understand the rule of אדמת קודש but isn’t this going a little TOO far?
Every Jewish sect has minhagim. It is normal for people to treat their holy places with various signs of respect. These are the traditional Chabad minhagim for the kevarim of their rabbeim.
See also Chabad-org: Why Do People Take Off Their Shoes When Visiting the Ohel?
Why should something be “a little too far” just because it happens to be a minhag Chabad?
Additionally, if I’m not mistaken, the minhag of removing shoes was quite common in the past by many Jews at kivrei tzaddikim, I don’t think it was unique to Lubavitch.
Do Lubavitch take off their shoes by מערת המכפלה, קבר רחל, or קבר רשב״י?
If not, why not?
If so, I’ve never seen ANYONE (including Lubavitchers) do it
To the group
Now I believe that the Rebbe will return. We see from Menachem Shmei that there’s Techiyas Hameisim. The phony returns to start some irrelevant discussion about taking off shoes at the Ohel. Nothing has changed. R.I.P. Chabad on YWN.
yankel berel: Not that they are modeh al ha’emet in their hearts.
They are too far gone for that.
But that their silence is proof that they do not have any good answers.I agree with the what you’re saying there, but that is not shtika kehoda’a. It’s shtika to cut your losses.
To the group
“Why should something be a little too far just because it’s a Chabad minhag?” So why do you criticize Chabad for believing that Schneersohn is god? That’s our Minhag. Try again serpent. No one’s buying your garbage. You had ample opportunity to answer our challenges and you failed to do so Case closed. Sorry, checkmate. Time for you to kiss up to ARSo looks like he changed sides again.
Menachem: Was it Chabad ‘s minhag to remove shoes already in prewar Europe?
I think all of you just 🤣crazy to talk about Chabad,try to be beasy with mitzvot instead so much avarot.אתם בטח כולכם אוכלי חינם,לכו לעבוד במקום לנצל את הממשלה שלכם או את ישיבות שלכם ,כולכם שקרנים וגנבים,תשתפו את הפיות שלכם לפני שמדברים על חבד,תתביישו לכם ותלכו לעזאזל בעזרת השם.תלכו למות עוד הלילה.
To the group
Let’s not forget the question that stumped Shmei, “How could Chabad reject Rambam ‘s criteria for Moshiach?”
Do Lubavitch take off their shoes by מערת המכפלה, קבר רחל, or קבר רשב״י?
I’m not sure.
If not, why not?
If not, maybe because they have more minhagim of respect for their rabbeim’s kvarim.
Menachem: Was it Chabad ‘s minhag to remove shoes already in prewar Europe?
If I’m not mistaken they did.
I have seen teshuva seforim (non Chabad) that mention this minhag.
Sefer שמש ומגן – תרנ”א writes a whole arichus explaining the reasons for the minhag, and it seems that this was a regular minhag in those days. He concludes:
ועל כן נמצא סמך למנהג העולם שפושטים נעליהם בבואם על קברי הצדיקים זיע”א”.
He calls it מנהג העולם, so it must be that it was a common minhag.I know that Rabbi Yochanan (Chabad) wrote up the history and sources of this minhag, but I haven’t gotten a hold of his writing.
Here’s something else I found online:
“R’ Moshe Dovber Rivkin[1] wrote:
דאדרבא מקום קברי צדיקי נחשב למקום קדוש, וכמ”ש המהרי”ל “דמקום מנוחת הצדיקים הוא מקום קדוש וטהור והתפלה מתקבלת יותר” הביאו הבה”ט בססי׳ תקפ״א.)ובוודאי מטע”ז נוהגיס הרבה בעת השתטחות על קברי צדיקים לחלוץ הנעלים כשנגשים אל הציון
The burial place of the righteous is (as the Maharil writes) “holy and pure, where prayers are accepted”. That’s why many, when going to prostrate themselves on the graves of the righteous, take off their shoes when they approach the grave.
The Nitei Gavriel also writes that this was the custom of R’ Yisrael of Sadigora (the grandson of the Ruzhiner) and Chernobyl.
[1] : One of the Chossidim of the Rebbe Rashab (the fifth Lubavitcher Rebbe) and the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe, and one of the Roshei Yeshiva of Torah VaDaas)”
Let’s not forget the question that stumped Shmei, “How could Chabad reject Rambam ‘s criteria for Moshiach?”
I have clarified my position on this several times here, and I won’t change my mind.
To the real Jews
Menachem Shmei writes, “I have clarified my position on this(Chabad rejecting Rambam viv a vis Moshiach):several times here, and I won’t change my mind.” Translation: I’ve been checkmated and I have no answer.
To the group
Shmei used his favorite cop-out answer to wit, “I addressed this several times already.” Of course no one will buy that so he’ll try his second favorite answer, “No one in the thread knows enough to understand my logic.” There used to be an ad, “You don’t have to be Jewish to love Levy’s.” You don’t have to be a liar to be Chabad but it surely helps. I’m sorry Menachem for humiliating you. Hey I missed you these last two weeks. You have a unique lying style.
To the group
Shmei has doubled down on his refusal to answer the question so let me share an answer from a different Lubavicher. Last year:some loony tune wrote on VIN, “Rambam paskens Halacha but Halacha only applies on earth, but Chsbad lives on planet Atzilus which transcends the earth.” Is it any wonder that these lunatics think that a dead Rabbi is god?
Coffee Addict: What are you trying to imply with the shoes thing? It seems random and weird, but what would be theoretically wrong with it? Why is it worse than having a minhag to wear a purple tie on the first Thursday of every month or any other random thing?
“Let’s not forget the question that stumped Shmei, “How could Chabad reject Rambam ‘s criteria for Moshiach?””
Aside from the fact that he’s answered this like a million times throughout these threads (albeit I don’t agree with him), what’s the hava amina here? That disagreeing with the Rambam is unequivocally kefira? We pasken not like the Rambam all the time.
@menachem
I am an avid reader of your comments defending habad and I have NO RECOLLECTION of any of your comments on this particular topic . Would you mind copying and paste them here ?@menachem
Is this R Moshe Dovber Rivkin you quote the same as the Rosh Yeshiva who died as a result of his refusal to put people in herem shelo kedin tora ?To yankel berel
It seems like Benedict ARSo morphed into Minuval Chamberlain, non Lubavitchers who farenfer for Shmei. Neither one, of course will answer the question. They just dance around it, thinking we’re fooled. Well we’re not fooled and more to the point Hashem isn’t fooled. Not that swine like them care about Hashem.
To Minuval
No one said it’s Kefirah to pasken against Rambam. What I wrote and yankel confirmed is that it’s hypocritical for Chabad to brag that they’re aficionados of Rambam and then when a certain Psak of his refutes their Moshiach claim they reject it. You have a annoying habit of misrepresenting what the real Jews in this thread are saying in order to advance your crooked agenda.
“Coffee Addict: What are you trying to imply with the shoes thing? It seems random and weird, but what would be theoretically wrong with it? Why is it worse than having a minhag to wear a purple tie on the first Thursday of every month or any other random thing?“
Neville,
I was wondering if Lubavitch puts the rebbe on a higher level than even the Avos Hakedoshim because I’ve never heard of ANYONE taking off their shoes going into מערת המכפלה or קבר רחל and the only reason why they do it is because they view that land specifically as ״אדמת קדש״ because the rebbe is buried there
Btw in shul we have a yerushalmi shiur (brachos) and we learned the Gemara of “Menachem shmei” but over there moshiach was named Menachem and went up to שמים as a baby
@Neville
The following was the original post [on page 21] re habad accepting / rejecting RAMBAM’s words re mashiach
————–
Habad does not reject Rambam’s criteria for Mashiach.
Not at all.
At least until a certain day in 1994, that is.
Until that day, habad was extremely busy trumpeting Rambam’s every word and how it corresponds oh so meticulously with their leader.
So, notwithstanding Shmei’s erudition, after bakashat mehila, I don’t think he will be able to furnish you [and the rest of us] with a logical explanation why Rambam’s words stopped being relevant on that pivotal day in 1994 …
————-
The question was – and still is , until some answer will somehow appear ….why RAMBAM’s words suddenly stopped being relevant on that pivotal day in 1994 ????
That question has NOT been addressed at all, to the best of my knowledge.
Nu ???
A friend of mine was witness to a xtian group watching a habad rebbi video, whereafter the xtian leader of the group explained to the participants how a jewish rebbi becomes a jewish leader and how said rebbi’s followers proclaim him as Messiah , and how [in the xtians group leaders’ words] j must have started his own career …. and that by watching the habad leaders videos the xtians could get a true to life visual experience of their own j in action some 2000 years ago ….. .
Yankel: I understand that kasheh, but it always just turns into a machlokes hametzius since they’re just going to deny that they ever held that way before 1994. Unfortunately, I don’t know of anything on record to refute this.
qwerty
“What I wrote and yankel confirmed is that it’s hypocritical for Chabad to brag that they’re aficionados of Rambam and then when a certain Psak of his refutes their Moshiach claim they reject it.”Again, so what? If they claim to be “aficionados” then they have to pasken like him all the time? Are modern day Litvaks “hypocrites” for occasionally not paskening like the Mishnah Berurah? Are sphardim hypocrites for sometimes not paskening like the mechaber?
Admittedly, Yankel actually answered my question, so feel free to not bother responding with your usual depraved rambling.
And btw the Gemara in yerushalmi says that moshiach can come from the dead outright
To yankel berel
Menachem no Sheim and the Minuval act like it’s a simple thing to argue against Rambam. Maybe for Raavad and Ramban but not for some clowns with Chabad Smicha. Imagine a fifth grade science teacher challenging Einstein. What Chabad is proposing is far more insane.
Yankel,
Honestly curious about your intriguing story: Why was your friend participating in that church session?
coffee addict: And btw the Gemara in yerushalmi says that moshiach can come from the dead outright
Can you cite a source please? I know that in mesehcta Berachos 2:4 it tells the story of a child assumed to be Mashiach who was taken by the wind, but not that he died.
It also says that “if Mashiach if from the dead, then his name is David”, but that may mean that it is/was David Hamelech, not that it can be any random dead person who was named David.
I’m not saying there aren’t other sources in Yerushalmi, I’m just requesting citations if there are.
To yankel berel
During the past summer I spent a Shabbos at a Bikur Cholim residence because I was visiting a family member who was hospitalized. They had numerous Sefarim including a Chabad pamphlet which talka about Moshiach. This pamphlet went through Rambam ‘s criteria. Apparently a segment of Chabad still accepts Rambam s Psak. The point is that Chabad just flings garbage against the wall and hopes something sticks.
Yankel: Interestingly, I think Chabad Meshichism, Bar Chochba, Shabbatei Tzvi, et al. are all great arguments against Christianity. They prove there was nothing special about their guy and that Jews believing in false moshiachs is actually quite common.
@menachem
It was not a church session.
It was an outdoor ‘event’ comprising of xtian tourists in EY.
They were congregating outside a habad house which was showing a video of their rebbi which passersby were free to watch.
He was standing close to them, so he happened to overhear their comments.
I also happen know which habad house it was.@Menachem
You wrote : “I have clarified my position on this several times here, and I won’t change my mind.”
———————
I think I read all your posts defending habad and I do NOT recall any ‘clarification’ of your position.Would you mind to copy and paste your ‘clarification’ here ?
————————–Reminder – Question was:
habad was extremely busy trumpeting Rambam’s every word and how it corresponds oh so meticulously with their leader.
So, why did RAMBAM’s words stop being relevant on that pivotal day in 1994 …why RAMBAM’s words suddenly stopped being relevant on that pivotal day in 1994 ????
Thanks
@Neville
I understand that kasheh
[why RAMBAM’s words suddenly stopped being relevant on that pivotal day in 1994]
, but it always just turns into a machlokes hametzius since habad are just going to deny that they ever held that way before 1994.
—————————
It is not a machloket bemetse’ut, since they have not ever denied that they held RAMBAM as the last authoritative posek for their mashiach matters.
They have not denied their own use of RAMBAM’s YAD HACHAZAKA to further their own rebbi’s candidacy.I vividly remember them using RAMBAM in service of their mashiach craziness.
So please, let’s start calling a spade a spade ….
To yankel berel
No point in pushing Menachem Shmei. He knows he’s been defeated but since he’s an idolater he won’t admit it. Like the serpent he is he’s waiting in the bushes for some irrelevant discussion to arise so he can steer the subject. In any event he knows and the moderators know that it’s checkmate for Chabad on this thread.
“Can you cite a source please? I know that in mesehcta Berachos 2:4 it tells the story of a child assumed to be Mashiach who was taken by the wind, but not that he died.”
ARSo,
Exactly that Gemara right before that story
The Gemara says if he’s alive his name is Dovid and if he’s from the dead his name is Dovid
Sorry ARSo I didn’t fully read your post (not the first time I didn’t fully read a post)
Once death doesn’t disqualify Dovid Hamelech it shouldn’t disqualify anyone else
Yankel, thanks for clarifying the story.
coffee addict: Once death doesn’t disqualify Dovid Hamelech it shouldn’t disqualify anyone else
But that’s the excuse the Lubavichers use to say that their rebbe can be Mashiach! “Once the gemoro says that Daniel can be Mashiach, any dead person can be Mashiach.” And it doesn’t follow. The Yerushalmi could easily be saying that if it’s someone who died, it was Dovid Hamelech. Furthermore, the Yerushalmi (and the Bavli for that matter) mentions someone WHO HAS DIED. Not someone who will have died by the time we learn the gemoro! So it can’t be talking about anyone who has died over the last 1500 years.
Who knew that QWERTY was at a higher level of kedusha than the Rebbe. He can drag the Rebbe lahavdil through the mud with his lashon hara but at soon as I have something to say it’s not posted.
You litvaks are full of it, no more Chafez Chaim quotes for the coffee room you hypocrites.
“coffee addict: Once death doesn’t disqualify Dovid Hamelech it shouldn’t disqualify anyone else
But that’s the excuse the Lubavichers use to say that their rebbe can be Mashiach!”
Was that not his point? I’m confused as to how he didn’t mean that as a defense of Chabad (at least in the context of this argument). If not, that’s a bad look for “team-anti-Chabad” that he just accidentally and independently arrived at the exact conclusion they want: that moshiach can come from the dead after techias hameisim and therefore the Rebbe is still eligible.
A bunch of crazy people,I hope all of you DIE right now,just DIE,.you see how Rebbe lubawitz will kill you.you dont have to stop,he will STOP you.
Any one talk bad about Rebbe,should Die.
To Lostspark
Please provide an example of Loshon Hora that I wrote about the Rebbe. That’s post number date and time.
To Minuval
Let’s set the record straight. The anti Chabadskers are not the ones who said Moshiach can’t come from the dead. That was the position of Chabad until Gimmel Tammuz when they did a 180 and decided to rely on the Gemara. What the anti Lubavitchers are saying is that the Rebbe is not Moshiach at this time as many(all) of his Chassidim believe
And the reason we can aver that he isn’t Moshiach is because he didn’t fulfill Rambam ‘s criteria. Glad that I could clarify these issues for such a clear headed person like you.Lostspark: Who knew that QWERTY was at a higher level of kedusha than the Rebbe. He can drag the Rebbe lahavdil through the mud with his lashon hara but at soon as I have something to say it’s not posted.
I have no idea what you’re talking about as I haven’t read any of qwerty’s posts since, I think, before Rosh Hashono. I suggest you do the same, as my menuchas hanefesh has increased manifold since I have stopped having any connection with that looney.
“The anti Chabadskers are not the ones who said Moshiach can’t come from the dead. That was the position of Chabad until Gimmel Tammuz when they did a 180 and decided to rely on the Gemara.”
Wait what? That is absolutely the universally accepted, non-Chabad opinion, that the Rebbe is disqualified due to his death. You’re actually now saying that meshichism caused them to better align with the gemara?
“A bunch of crazy people,I hope all of you DIE right now,just DIE,.you see how Rebbe lubawitz will kill you.you dont have to stop,he will STOP you.”
Bro, how drunk are you?
To Lostspark
What’s taking you so long? Oh that’s right you’re busy trying to find the Chofetz Chaim’s Sefer on Shmiras Haloshon. What’s the matter? They don’t sell it in CH?
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