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Thanks Lemayseh. I’d like to elaborate on what you said. Rabbi Schachter, on that program, said that many Lubavitchers daven to the Rebbe and not to Hashem and that’s idolatry. Lichtenstein had to do damage control so he bought on Kotlarsky to refute that assessment. Kotlarsky, of course, denied that any Lubavicher davens to the Rebbe. Lichtenstein then said, “So there you have it. Rabbi Moshe Kotlarsky who’s in charge of over 2,000 Mosdos in CH has categorically denied that any Lubavicher davens to the Rebbe.” Right, trust the CEO of Chabad over a world class Rosh Yeshiva. Lichtenstein will have to answer a lot of questions in the Olam Haemes.
Anyone out there considering neo habad claims – BEWARE !!
Do not fall in to their trap.Do not fall for their friendliness, for their idealism.
Do not fall for their warmth and their assistance to yehudim all over the globe.
Carefully consider any of their claims against all the available evidence.
Consider it with a cool head and careful reasoning.Once you are crystal clear about their theology , you will not be tempted to follow them into their cult de sac anymore
@qwertly and lamayse: they all said there is NOTHING wrong with believing the rebbe is moshiach, fact! listen again!
some said that the ones who daven to the rebbe ch”v, we should be merachek.
i agree, i would consider someone who davens to the rebbe, an oved avoda zara. just like i would consider all those who daven to r’ aharon kotler.
they never said to assume any lubavitchers daven to the rebbe, they just said it exists (i have no clue how they came to this conclusion)To echadHaemes
You’re right that there’s an otherworldly quality to the Rebbe’s Torah. Clearly he wasn’t a mortal. About twenty years ago I davened in a YI which had a Chabad Rabbi. I innocently said that when I was growing up in the sixties we were told that there are 3 great Rabbis. Rav Moshe for the Yeshiva world, the Rebbe for Chasidim and Rav Soloveitchik for MO. The Rabbi heard this and went ballistic, “No Rabbi can be compared to the Rebbe. He can only be compared to other Tannaim and Neviim.” One Shabbos his son in law spoke, “People call the Rebbe the Moshe Rabbeinu of this generation but the Rebbe was much greater. Moshe had a bad temper but the Rebbe never got angry.”To yankel berel.
Great to have you back. When I was pilloried to last year for the crime of watching TV you came to my defense. BTW I no longer have the TV.To seichel 83
You don’t know how they came to the conclusion that Lubavitchers daven to the Rebbe. Well maybe it’s because Lubavitchers like you say that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form. As for your insinuation that real Jews daven to Rav Aharon Kotler. That’s like the psychos who grudgingly agree that the perpetrators of 10/ 7 were terrorists and then immediately add that Netanyahu and the army are worse. As for your statement that none of the Rabbis rejected the possibility that the Rebbe is Moshiach, to the best of my recollection that question never came up. Lichtenstein just asked each Rabbi for his opinion about Chabad.
Dovid Lichtenstein with his Headlines program, is engaged in a very serious sin, זיוף התורה, and no one from the Orthodox camp should listen to it. That is according to a leading Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Gershon Ribner shlit”a, as stated recently (in a clip dated early this July, easily available online at his site). Lichtenstein has been doing this program for years (though recently very often he has a replacement host, such as R. Ari Wasserman in his place). While at first many people may not have realized it, over time it become apparent that he engages in various dangerous manipulations with his program, such as in the editing of audio clips to produce snippets he favors, choice of guests, etc. Coupled with his עשיר יענה עזות (משלי יח:כג), that makes his program very suspect and dangerous, and lacking a חזקת כשרות. His program is not a trustworthy source, especially with regard to an issue where is clearly heavily biased, such as this. David himself admitted that he never was in “770”, the main Lubavitcher Temple. So he is falling for an airbrushed, false picture of Lubavitch fed to him by smooth talking propagandists like Y.Y. Jacobson and Moshe Kotlarsky. If David wants to engage in self-delusion, that is his choice, but no one else should be fooled by these scam artists.
s83 – what you say is not accurate. Rav Schachter warned quite strongly against Lubavitch messianism in the program, and Rav Shafran spoke strongly too.
@EchadHaemes I’m repeating myself, but you seem to be unaware how uniquely Chabad-centric your view point is.
First and foremost, the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s Sichos were not meant to be learned b’iyun. He would have much preferred if his Torah would take a distant fifth place behind Gemara, Rishonim, Acharonim, and Halacha. Second, again, you have Gedolim like Rav Ruderman ZT”L who had the capacity to see more b’iyun in a “casual” reading of Torah than anyone alive can do in weeks, who learned Chabad Torah (Rav Ruderman was from a Lubavitch family and had daily sedorim in Tanya and other sifrei Chabad), learned the Lubavicher Rebbe’s sichos, and still didn’t see them as deep as some young bachur straight from Tzfas seems to see them. And he’s far from the only Gadol who did.
Have you learned Alei Shur? Pachad Yitzchok? Rav Hirsch? RAMCHAL? There are hundreds of sifrei hashkafa, most of which you’re probably unaware of. Who’s to say that learning b’iyun any of those wouldn’t have a similar epiphany that you achieved from one Gadol alone?
To Lemayseh.
Let’s not forget what Lichtenstein did to Dr. Berger. He has Torah but his money made him forget Hashem. He can celebrate the fact that Chabad let him speak at their Kinnus Shluchim.
@qwerty these rabbonim are clearly not reffering to the sicha, because otherwise they would say the whole chabad are minim r”l, they say clearly those who beleive the rebbe is g-d down here (r”l) which are a select few – according to them.
listen again every single rav he speaks to mentions that there is nothing wrong with those who say the rebbe is moshiach
@lemayse: he has great rabbanim speaking on his podcast i.e. rav moshe shternbach, rav dovid cohen, rav hershal shachter and much more. ok so r’ gershen ribner argues,To seichel
You just wrote that the Rabbis on Lichtenstein ‘s program consider those who believe that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form minim. A week ago you wrote to rightjew and told him to study Engaging the Essence so that he can understand that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form. Since you endorse the book, according to those Rabbis whom you call great you are a Min And obviously according to Hashem, G-d of the Jewish people to exclude Lubavitchers, you are an outright idolater.
Look who’s back! QWERTY saw a ChaBaD thread and had to put in his two cents.
QWERTY is someone all of Lubavitch should look up to, his thoughts revolve totally around the Rebbe with no interruption.
To Lostspark
Would it be too much to ask you to say something substantive? Since you can’t you’re essentially conceding that I along with the other great posters on YWN and other sites have successfully demonstrated that Chabad is null and void as a valid representation of Judaism
“Clearly he wasn’t a mortal“
You’re right, clearly He’s the son in the “Trinity”
@sechel83 I want you to even out your hat and beard, dress more Litvish, and go around asking a random assortment of non-Chabad Rabbonim (Chassidish, Modernish, Yeshivish, whatever) whether there is anything wrong with thinking a dead individual is Moshiach. I am curious how many you will have to go through to find one that doesn’t give an immediate “no”.
I think QWERTY is officially the coffee room shliach, one only has to review his post history and see each post contains either the words Rebbe or ChaBaD.
Keep up the good work as a true chasid and lamp lighter of the Rebbe in this choshech we call the coffee room lol.
“Would it be too much to ask you to say something substantive?”
Other than repeating Rebbe and ChaBaD over and over I have yet to see anything substantial from your posts.
I suggest you write the Rebbe Shlita and refer to Iggros to discover why you think about him so much. Hatzlacha Rabbah!
To Yserbius 123
I’d like to add to your point. While there are many non-Chabad Rabbis who like Chabad, none of them accept any of Chabad ‘s claims. They don’t hold that the Rebbe is Moshiach, god clothed in human form, runs the world, is/was a Novi. Seichel says they do because they don’t criticize Chabad. Rabbi Bronstein who wrote Engaging the Essence was interviewed by Rabbi Bashevkin. He was asked about the Rebbe being Moshiach and he didn’t answer the question saying that he has no opinion on the subject, because his book is about the Rebbe’s Torah and Hashgafah.
To Lostspark
Send me his email address and I’ll drop him a line.Christianity also started with a group of Jews gathered around a “holy” figure, who couldn’t handle the loss of him dying so they decided he’s first Messiah and then god. It’s Chabad job to make sure that the irresponsible Mashiach talk not escalate into them making him god 200 years down the line. That starts with them answering “no” when asked if he’s mashiach rather than engaging in mealy-mouth double tlak
No problem:
To Lostspark
You want substance. As expressed in this and other sites, the Chabad belief system clarifies that your religion is closer to Christianity than Judaism. Can I be more blunt? BTW you’re obviously obsessed with me so maybe you should consult with your live/dead Rebbe.
To skripka
They’ve already advanced past the breaking point. There was someone on YWN last year who claimed to know the inner workings of Chabad(I forgot his handle.) So he said that before Gimmel Tammuz there was no suggestion in CH that Moshiach could come from the dead. Immediately after he died Chabad invented new rules. I spoke to a Lubavicher with whom I’m friendly and he confirmed what that poster said. Why can’t Chabad see how lost they are? They are idolaters. The Gemara in Avodah Zarah says that an idolater is completely consumed with his idol and so they lose all rationality.
To lostspark
Tell Schneersohn to contact me. I have a job so I can’t waste my time. Since he’s dead, he has plenty of free time on his hands.
QWERTY obsession would mean I think about you as much as you keep the Rebbe foremost in your mind. That isn’t the case, you sure are entertaining though.
@qwerty, yserbius
on lichtenstein show 102, the following Rabbonim were asked about their opinion on chabad Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky, Rabbi Nissan Kaplan, Rabbi Hershel Shachter, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Shafran, Rabbi Dovid Cohen, Rabbi Dovid Yosef,
they all said there is NOTHING wrong with those who say the rebbe is moshiach, final.
in kuntres shmo shel moshiach which is a sefer about if moshiach can be from the dead, the following Rabbonim gave haskomos: Rabbi Yitzchok Breitewitz, Rabbi Zev Leffyou want to call all these Rabbonim apikorsim ch”v?? thats what you are saying
(about what they say that those who say the Rebbe is g-d ch”v are minim, we went thru this many times, but these Rabbonim themselves many learn the Rebbe’s torah (you can find them talking about it on a recent interview,) Many of them are very close to chabad, Rav shmuel Kamenetsky gave a haskama to tzivos hashem Yahadus book, full of sichos of the Rebbe, and they never came out against the rebbe himself in public.
so obviously they have a bit more brains than you and know that what the rebbe said in the sicha, is the same thing written in gemara, medrash, zohar, yerushalmi, and it just needs to be understood properly and not twisted. those who understand it in a twisted way (or for that matter understand the gemara, medrash, pesukim in chumash etc, litterly or twisted, are also minim.)“chabad is closer to Christianity than Judaism”, i love this statement, it really brings out what chabad is, other jews are human doings – just do dry halachos, Christians lihavdil focus ONLY on spirituality, chabad puts an emphasis on both, so when you compare chabad to dry litvaks or Christians one can say such a stupid statement.
Skripka,
You’re too late, it already has happened
To Lostspark
Your obsession with me is very flattering. You seem to have convinced yourself that I alone stand in the way of the Rebbe ruling the world. Halevai that a nobody like me would have such power. Take a look at the other posters. They’re all saying exactly the same things as me and many of them have been on this site for years. Yet you only focus on me. Maybe you should look at yourself and recognize that you’ve become a full fledged idolater. All the times you’ve put Tefilin on atheists will not buy Hashem ‘s forgiveness.To coffee addict
You’re absolutely right.
To Seichel
Chabad resembles Judaism in that you keep Jewish rituals. Chabad resembles Christianity because your focus is on a dead Jew rather than a Living God. Look how you twist yourself like a pretzel to try to convince yourself tand others that Rabbis outside of Chabad think that the Rebbe is Moshiach. I’ll quote one of my Rabbeinu who never criticizes Chabad or anyone because he’s a Talmid of Rav Pam. “The belief that the Rebbe is Moshiach is not part of normative Judaism.” As far your statement that distinguished Rabbis say that the Rebbe is Moshiach. There are Rabbis who will say that Moshiach can come from the dead, although the Chofetz Chaim paskened otherwise. However those Rabbis have never said the Rebbe is the dead person that the Gemara is referring to.I’m pretty sure your preoccupation of sinas chinam against Lubavitch closer to true avodah zarah.
It sure has been fun watching dunning Kruger effect reveal it’s self in real time though!
Why is it that with such brilliant, important things to say, has the rebba not issued a single sicha past 1994? How is it that I’ve never been asked to say tehillim for such an elderly man, he never even catches a cold? Get this, LostSpark, when speaking to a Chabadevangelist, the majority of us feel like Avraham talking to the people coming to his father’s idol shop.
To Lostspark
It wasn’t Sinas Chinam when Rabbi Yaakov Sasportas spoke out against Shabbetai Zvi. And it isn’t Sinas Chinam to speak out against Chabad which is far worse.
To Seichel
Let’s put aside Lichtenstein s program. I want to know what you think. 1. Is the Rebbe physically alive? 2. Is he Moshiach? 3. Is he god clothed in human form? 4. Does he run the world? 5. Is/was he a Novi?@sechel83 That wasn’t what I asked. I’m sure you can find vague comments by big public Rabbonim and interpret that in any way you want. Certainly there are people on this thread that heard something completely different on that show. What I was you to do is go in disguise as a non-Lubavitcher, then RANDOMLY go over to non-Chabad Rabbonim and ask them if there’s something wrong with believing that a dead man (no matter how holy) is Moshiach. What percentage do you think will give you a straight “It’s OK to believe that” answer? More importantly, how many Rabbonim do you think you will have to ask before you get that answer?
Shabbetai Zvi only claimed to be the Melech HaMashiach.
Chabad claims that Rabbi Schneerson is:
[1] the Melech HaMashiach
[2] a navi [prophet]
[3] G*D Himself (in human form) [or G*Dliness in human form]Which is worse?
If I remember correctly, most of Shabbetai Zvi’s followers no longer believed
that he was the Melech HaMashiach after he died.Chabad claims that Rabbi Schneerson is the Melech HaMashiach,
even AFTER his death.Which is worse?
To square _root
There’s a new phenomenon developing in CH. Lubavitchers are now saying that Rambam ‘s criteria for Moshiach no longer apply. When Lubavitchers come to the next world they’ll brag about making a yearly Siyum Rambam. They’ll discover that they get no schar for this learning because they didn’t believe in it. In addition they’ll receive no reward for any other Mitzvah because they were obeying the Rebbe and not Hashem.Let’s get some insight from gematria.
שקר כמינים = 770.
SQUARE_ROOT, you’re 100% correct. Also, the fears of the Gra have been realized – one reason he opposed chassidus was because he foresaw a repeat of Shabbsai Zvi occurring. He was right.
Man how many software updates did you guys miss lol?!?
It’s 5784, if not for the Baal Shem Tov could you imagine what the world would look like today?
If holding by the Gra I guess I’m in cherem and so should you for eating meat shechted by chassidim holding by chassidishe hiddurim.
Are you even allowed to communicate with me if I’m in cherem as poskened by the Gra?
Since QWERTY goes to a ChaBaD Shul which according to his own standards is commiting avodah zarah, can we trust he’s not davening in a church as well?!?
To DaMoshe
We can add a point to what you said. One of the reasons Shabbetai Zvi captured so many followers is that conditions were horrific for Jews at the time.e.g. Tach V’Tat
. But today we live in a goldene medina for Jews. We can live well and keep the Torah. And what does Chabad do? They threw Hashem under the bus in favor of a snake-oil salesman. Rabbi Miller said that Gehinnom is the world of regret. That’s where Korach realized he was wrong but there was nothing they could do about it. Chabad Chassidus is potentially wonderful. All they have to do is take the Rebbe out of the equationTo Lostspark
Enjoy your attempts at humor. Korach also used the mocking route. Didn’t work out too well. I do not need to go to church. The Chabad shul I attend has a nice breakfast after davening on Sunday. Again. It’s not exactly a Chabad shul. The Rabbis are Chabad and the congregants are Russians who know little to nothing about Judaism. Last week one of the Russians approached me and said that Chabad is idolatry. I told him he was right and directed him to this site. Of course, I keep my mouth shut in shul for Shalom Bayis.
To seichel
What’s taking you so long to answer? No matter what lies you tell I’ll catch you. And you know it.
please answer the question
are the following Rabbonim apikorsim for saying that moshiach can come from the dead, and the chabad belief is totally accepted?
the following Rabbonim were asked about their opinion on chabad Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky, Rabbi Nissan Kaplan, Rabbi Hershel Shachter, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Shafran, Rabbi Dovid Cohen, Rabbi Dovid Yosef,
they all said there is NOTHING wrong with those who say the rebbe is moshiach, final.
in kuntres shmo shel moshiach which is a sefer about if moshiach can be from the dead, the following Rabbonim gave haskomos: Rabbi Yitzchok Breitewitz, Rabbi Zev Leff.To seichel
Hold your horses. Whoever says that Moshiach can come from the dead is relying on a Gemara so obviously he’s not an Apikorus. But it’s quite a jump to say that these Rabbis completely accept the Chabad belief. Even you admitted that Rav Herschel Schachter said on that show that many Lubavitchers are idolaters. Now when are you going to answer my questions you coward? I’ve got you trapped and so it’s time to say checkmate. Remember how I drove Menachem Shmei crazy with that word?
“The Chabad shul I attend has a nice breakfast after davening on Sunday. Again. It’s not exactly a Chabad shul.“
I don’t know QWERTY that sounds awfully a lot like a church service you may be attending.
“Sechel83”: You are a brazen liar. Those who want to know the truth should listen to the segment. It is not that long (although the program in general sometimes is).
Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky shlit”a did not say that! Rav Hershel Schachter shlit”a didn’t say that! Rav Mendel Shafran shlit”a didn’t say that!
Rabbi David Cohen (who is actually not a Kohein) appeared more moderate on the matter, but he was also manipulated by smooth talking David Lichtenstein, as is typical on David’s Fake News Headlines program.
On prevaricators like you, the words of Dovid Hamelech are appropriate, תאלמנה שפתי שקר, ויכרת ה’ כל שפתי חלקות. You have such chutzpah. Even your late Rebbe, the Moshiach sheker, spoke out against such brazen lying, he publicly said over a pshat in the Chazal of מילתא דעבידא לגלויי לא משקרי אינשי that those who do so nevertheless are not אינשי, not menschen.
As is known by mevinim, the Chabad-Lubavitch sect pesters rabbonim for their nefarious propaganda aims, and sometimes the klei kodesh, who work for Klal Yisroel, being busy, and often tired and overwhelmed, don’t fully realize what is going on, whether due to being dan lekaf zechus, not knowing the modus operandi of the Chabad cult, or not having time to follow the news, and sometimes, R”L, some of them err and fall into the trap of Lubavitch, and get used for their PR, ה’ ירחם.
Sechel, you are misrepresenting R’ Leff’s views.
He completely opposes the idea that Mashiach can come from the dead. His letter for the kuntros simply states that while he once said that there are no sources at all for such a belief, now he sees there are.
As he wrote in another letter:
“OK, the truth is that according to basic Jewish sources Moshiach cannot come from someone who died.
Eventhough there seems to be sources in the Talmud that seem to imply perhaps that that is a possibility
there are other ways of learning those sources. And the fact that for 2000 years all the great rabbis used this
as an argument against Christianity that a Moshiach who came and died and is to return is not a Jewish
concept it is very hard now to say that it is a Jewish concept because for 2000 years we said it is not a
Jewish concept. And therefore the Rambam seems to say clearly that if someone comes and claims to be
Moshiach and he dies or is killed that he is definitely not Moshiach unless before he died and was killed he
built the Beis HaMikdosh, brought all Jews back into Eretz Yisroel, which obviously the Lubavitcher
Rebbe did not do before he died.”Sechel, the Rambam states that Mashiach will be revealed in Eretz Yisrael, and will be an unknown until he is revealed. The Rebbe never fit that.
To the real Jews
I think you’ll find this interesting. When I got married I inherited my wife’s friends. One was a Chabad couple featuring a real nut job husband. They invited us for a Shabbos. It was 1991 and I knew nothing about Chabad. The guy told me that the Rebbe is Moshiach. I figured he was a crazy BT so I said that’s nice. A year later, post stroke, we were invited again. Again the host tells me the Rebbe is Moshiach. So I told him that he told me that the last time. We met at some event in 95 and he tells me the following, “The Rebbe is Moshiach. It doesn’t matter that he’s dead, because the Gemara says Moshiach can come from the dead. The Chofetz Chaim paskened otherwise, but who cares what he says.” I spoke to one of my Rabbis and he confirmed that the Chofetz Chaim did say that. A year ago I was fighting Chabad on line and I bought this point up. One psycho. Chabad answered, The Rebbe became Moshiach before he died so it’s not a contradiction to the Chofetz Chaim ‘s Psak.
“The Rebbe became Moshiach before he died so it’s not a contradiction to the Chofetz Chaim ‘s Psak.”
So where’s the rest of the story? It sounds like you were checkmated by a psycho Lubavitcher!
Gemara says Moshiach can come from the dead. The Chofetz Chaim paskened otherwise/
Doesn’t really make much of a difference, but just curious where?
A year ago I was fighting Chabad on line
You’re a brave man qwerty, a brave man.
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