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ועל דרך הקבלה יעקב אבינו לא מת שלא היתה מדתו כענין שאר מדות הקצוות שהן גורמות ההפכים, ובאור זה כי מדתו הוא המכריע ואע”פ שהוא כלול מכל המדות ומקבל מהן בעבור שהוא עולה דרך סלולה עד ראשית הראשית שהוא מקור החיים, על כן אמרו ביעקב לא מת ולא אמרו כן על אברהם ויצחק לפי שהן מדות הקצוות לימין ולשמאל הגורמות ההפכים ולפיכך יעקב אבינו לא מת אך נשאר קיים בגוף ובנפש, הגוף הזה הוא הגוף השני הדק שבו הנפש מתלבשת בצורת גוף ויש לו ממש אבל הוא דק עד מאד מתלבשת בו לעתים מזומנות והוא מערב שבת לערב שבת או מיום הכפורים ליום הכפורים הוא משוטט בעולם בשליחותו של הקב”ה ומתראה למי שהוא חפץ בו כי הראשון הגס נחנט ונקבר כפשוטו של מקרא, וזהו מאמר החכם שאמר מקרא אני דורש שנאמר (ירמיה מו) הנני מושיעך ואת זרעך, מקיש הוא לזרעו מה זרעו בחיים אף הוא בחיים כלומר מה זרעו בחיים בגוף ובנפש אף הוא בחיים בגוף ובנפש והוא הגוף שהזכרתי.
Don’t worry this isn’t a ChaBaD source 🙂
Menachem Shmei, as I said before, I will not argue with you on this topic. You will see what you want to see. You WANT Yaacov Avinu
to be physically alive in his kever. We already went around and around with this getting nowhere.I’m bringing here the Ramban for those who want to see it:
וַיִּגְוַע וַיֵּאָסֶף וּמִיתָה לֹא נֶאֶמְרָה בוֹ, וְאָמְרוּ רַבּוֹתֵינוּ (תענית ה), יַעֲקֹב אָבִינוּ לֹא מֵת, לְשׁוֹן רַשִׁ”י (רש”י על בראשית מ”ט:ל”ג). וּלְדַעַת רַבּוֹתֵינוּ הֲרֵי יַעֲקֹב הִזְכִּיר מִיתָה בְּעַצְמוֹ (בראשית מ”ח:כ”א), “הִנֵּה אָנֹכִי מֵת וְהָיָה אֱלֹהִים עִמָּכֶם”, וְאוּלַי לֹא יָדַע הוּא בְּנַפְשׁוֹ, אוֹ שֶׁלֹּא רָצָה לָתֵת כָּבוֹד לִשְׁמוֹ. וְכֵן (בראשית נ’:ט”ו) “וַיִּרְאוּ אֲחֵי יוֹסֵף כִּי מֵת אֲבִיהֶם”, כִּי לָהֶם מֵת הוּא, אוֹ שֶׁלֹּא יָדְעוּ הֵם בָּזֶה כְּלָל.
AND HE EXPIRED, AND WAS GATHERED TO HIS PEOPLE. But the word “death” is not mentioned in his case. Our Rabbis therefore said, “Jacob, our father, did not die.” This is the language of Rashi.
Now according to this opinion of our Rabbis, the difficulty arises: Now Jacob applied the term “death” to himself, as it is written, Behold, I die, but G-d shall be with you! Now perhaps he did not know it himself, or it may be that he did not wish to pay honor to himself. Similarly, with respect to the verse, And when Joseph’s brethren saw that their father was dead, we must say that to them he was dead, or it may be that they did not at all know of this.Here is the Ramban’s conclusion:
וְעִנְיַן הַמִּדְרָשׁ הַזֶּה, כִּי נַפְשׁוֹת הַצַּדִּיקִים צְרוּרוֹת בִּצְרוֹר הַחַיִּים, וְזוֹ תְּחוֹפֵף עָלָיו כָּל הַיּוֹם, לוֹבֶשֶׁת לְבוּשָׁה הַשֵּׁנִי, שֶׁלֹּא יִפְשְׁטֶנָּה עֲרוּמָה, כְּיַעֲקֹב, אוֹ תִּתְלַבֵּשׁ לְעִתִּים מְזֻמָּנוֹת. וְיוּבַן הָעִנְיָן הַזֶּה בְּמַסֶּכֶת שַׁבָּת (שבת קנ”ב) וּבְמַסֶּכֶת כְּתֻבּוֹת (קג.):
THE PURPORT of this Midrash [which states that “Jacob, our father, did not die],” is that the souls of the righteous are bound in the bind of life with the Eternal, and his soul covers him all the day, “wearing a scarlet garment” so that she not be stripped naked, as Yaacov’s [soul was privileged to do continually], or which she dons at certain occasions [as do the souls of lesser righteous individuals]. This matter will be understood in the light of what is told in masechtos Shabbath and masechtos Kethuboth.In other words, the Ramban is questioning in the first part but his conclusion is that Yaacov lo mes means that his non-death is a spiritual matter.
To philosopher
I’m impressed. That must have been your Bas Mitzvah Pshetl. Just kidding. My Yiddish is weak, but I’m sure the atheists got it. Since they don’t believe in Hashem they think they can say anything they want and there will be no repercussions. I don’t respond to their insults because to me these Kofeim are nothing more than dead hamsters. Let’s see how many other “obscure” Gemaras Goebbels comes up with. That would be anyone which says that Hashem runs the world.
Lostspark: I suggest the conversation continues in Hebrew/Yiddish in order to create a barrier of entry for the dentist that forgot to take his meds.
I don’t think that’s necessary because as far as I can tell he doesn’t understand simple English either.
Phil:
You have 1 person, qwerty, agreeing with you on this Rashi. Feel free to read his posts to see the kind of person with whom you’re aligning.
You now how 5 (maybe more) people telling you that isn’t what that Rashi means, and only 1 of those 5 is a Lubavitcher. If you include Artscroll as 1 person, then that makes a 5th non-Lubavitcher arguing on you. If you consider how many editors probably saw that and gave it the green light, you have hundreds if not thousands. At this point, there’s clearly no point. You will continue to stick by your guns even if the entire Orthodox community tells you that isn’t the normative interpretation.
פארוואס זאל איך הערן אז קיינער זאגט גארנישט
To philosopher
I actually read over what you wrote. The only word I didn’t know was Groylig. Never heard that before. But I caught your drift and it’s correct in any language. Chabad is idolatry.
@ARSo
I think you ‘dont see it’
is because you have not tried [properly].
Chazon Ish said that whenever he is deliberating on a pshat to gauge its merits, he tries the following.First he banishes all possible problems with that pshat- as if they do not exist and fully concentrates on its merits and how it would make sense with the language, other sources and its logic.
Then- and only then, he changes course totally, concentrates fully on its problems as if its merits do not exist at all.
Only after all said and done , once , as a result of the above, its merits and deficiencies are totally clear to him , then he weighs them up , merits vs deficiency, and decides whether the pshat is emet or not.
—————–
Its important to establish here that this idea of a test is not mine. it is the RAMBAM’s.
RAMBAM clearly is worried also in the case of a navi, also in the case of mashiach, about the same issue.
How do we differentiate between false pretenders and rightful claimants ?
And he gives solutions to both.There is a test the claimant has to pass , in order to be established as a rightful name bearer.
You have not addressed the question of how the test could have any meaning if there is the possibility of a second chance ?To Philosopher
In no way am I suggesting that Yaakov is alive. All I’m proposing is that Rashi took note of the Torah ‘s ambiguity in discussing his death and this led to his comment which is way beyond our understanding.. Does it mean that he’s actually alive? Unless you’re a psychotic Chabad Kofer the answer is no. A new Nazi lover has joined the fold.He might even be stupider than Lostspark and the high level Gemara teacher who was driven out by his students for his arrogance and stupidity. This hamster comes up with the brilliant argument that you only have me on your side and of course I’m worthless. This Nazi appeaser, Shmei is the Goebbels Hador, is trying to convince you that you should follow the “Rov” and accept Yaakov Lo Mes literally. I seem to recall a Jew who lived many years ago. He went against the prevailing wisdom. He rejected the psychotic idolaters, ie the Lubavitchers of his time, and stood up for the truth..His name was Avraham Avinu. Moreover, if this Hitler lackey is such a proponent of following the Rov let him tell Menachem Goebbels to convince his landsmen to convert to the original Christianity. They have 2 billion believers in a dead Jewish Kofer, Chabad only has 100 k. Rabbi Miller said that Gehinnom is a very big place. Those who stand with Chabad will discover the truth of those words.
Yakov would not be ‘in a deep sleep’ because how didn’t the embalmers notice his breathing ?
And his pulse ?
It says they thought him being dead ?It could be that his brain was functioning bederech nes without oxygen supply, and that was the measure of life within his body.
Thats why it does not say vayamat.I suggest we should put aside all the personal squabbles here .
Mai Dehaveh Haveh.And concentrate on the ikar.
Is habad nowadays part of mainstream Judaism ?
Or not ?The overwhelming majority of participants on this site, think its not.
No matter that they have their own private , personal disagreements.
Which are in greater scheme of things , insignificant.Let’s maybe rephrase the original question.
Given the past trajectory of nowadays habad , where do you think its theological position will be in ten , twenty, fifty or a hundred years from now ?
Provided the real mashiach will not have come yet.Don’t forget, habad of the future will consist of today’s babies who never met the real flesh and blood human with his foibles , and who will be brainwashed by an education based on fanatical narrow minded misinterpretations of the torah and hazal.
Food for thought.
To Neville Chamberlain
Name one non Chabad Rabbi who says Yaakov is alive. Checkmate Shmendrick.
@philosopher
Quoting RAMBAN does not convince anyone of shitat RASHI.Philosopher I’ll daven you find your bashert this coming year. There is no reason you have to continue being this miserable.
I’m sure your future husband can easily walk you through this issue in understanding a Rashi.
To philosopher
It’s interesting the game that Menuval Chamberlain is playing. He’s arguing that you’re disputing Artscroll. Such nonsense. If Rashi said Yaakov Lo Mes Artscroll writes it because they certainly won’t change what he said. But in no way does it mean that they understand Rashi literally. I’ll give you a simple Moshol. We know the Midrash that Adam Harishon had relations with every species before he married Chavah. Obviously no one except possibly Chabad accepts that Midrash literally. So does that mean the editors who print it accept it literally. Of course not. It’s just their job to print what the Midrash says. You would assume that Menuval understands this but maybe not. Maybe he really is a total retard. Anyway there’s a major checkmate in his future. He’s total you know what.Another supposed non Lubavicher who lies in Hashem’s face right before Rosh Hashanah. People who play Rosh Hashanah roulette always lose.
@coffee addict
Its not ‘starting the process’ which is the issue.It’s the CLAIM which is the issue.
j claimed it [or his followers claim he claimed it] and failed his test. Shabtai tzvi claimed it and failed the test. Leader of habad claimed it and failed the test.
They all are meshichei sheker.
Period.Daniel [and / or other worthy individuals who have died] NEVER claimed it and therefore NEVER failed any test.
Think this is pashut kebe’a bekutcha.QWERTY have you tried iamamother? It might be more on your level.
Arso, Rashi said something, I had no question on it. And read the full text of the Ramban which you obviously didn’t bother to do…
Shmei claimed there’s a Rif, Or Hachayim AND the Rif on the Ein Yaacov. I said I don’t have a sefer of ein yaacov. As for the Rif, yes from the 11th century I looked and looked and there’s nothing on Yaacov lo mes! Don’t you and Shmei fardrey me a kup when Shmei mentions the Rif, another two other meforshim in between and then the Rif again on Ein Yaacov that I’m mixing up the two Rif’s!
As for the Ramban I bought down the FULL VERSION IN CONTEXT in one of my last posts. YOU obviously didn’t bother checking the Ramban! Or if you did then you are lying by omission!
I’m certainly not combing through the posts again but are you seriously saying now that you and Shmei didn’t argue that Yaacov is physically alive in his kever?! Unbelievable!!!! What dishonesty! But the truth is I knew from the beginning that I’m arguing with dishonest people so I’m not surprised.
Okay so what you are NOW saying is that Rashi is saying that Yacov lo mes means that he is alive…wow! How impressive! I also said throughout the entire thread that Rashi is saying that. What’s you point in arguing with me then?
FROM THE NEWS . ANY RELEVANCE TO OUR DISCUSSION ???
On the streets of Beirut, Hezbollah supporters are reacting in one of two ways to their leader’s death: denial or defiance.
“He is alive,” said Fatme Hosni el Age, who fled the Israeli bombing in Lebanon’s south and sought refuge in the capital.
“Everyone is saying that he is alive. They spread rumours saying he is dead, but he is alive and they hid him.”
She is one of many Hezbollah supporters the ABC spoke to who can’t believe the leader of their movement, for years a seemingly untouchable figure, was killed by Israeli air strikes on Hezbollah’s headquarters in southern Beirut on Friday.
Lostspark, ok that Rabaynu B’Chaya is talking about a second guf, not Yaacov’s guf which is embalmed and buried, the one I was talking about the entire time. I said many times that Yaacov’s body that was buried was not physically alive.
philosopher, you are out of your depth by many many fathoms.
What I and Shmei said:
1. Rashi says that Yaakov Avinu did not die. (I don’t understand it, but there are lots of statements of Chazal and Rishonim that I don’t understand. That doesn’t change the fact.)
2. The Or Hachayim, the Rif on Ein Yaakov and others hold that Yaakov Avinu did not die. (You’re ranting and raving – have you been infected by a fellow conspiracy theorist? – that you have not seen that Rif is so immature. It’s there and everyone who has seen it acknowledges it. From what I understand you seem to be claiming that Shmei intentionally cited both the Rif (aka the Alfas) and the Rif on Ein Yaakov as two citations. I don’t recall him doing that. Maybe he did. I doubt it. But even if he did, it’s not relevant to what Rashi says.)
3. The Ramban was ALWAYS quoted in this thread to prove NOT WHAT HE HIMSELF HELD but what Rashi held. And he explains and resolves an apparent problem – the one you asked – in Rashi. So the Ramban agrees that Rashi holds that Yaakov Avinu did not die. That’s why Shmei quoted the Ramban. You then went and quoted what the Ramban himself holds, which is fine BUT NOT RELEVANT TO OUR DISCUSSION ABOUT RASHI’S VIEW. Yankel berel wrote that to you.You have accused me and I have accused you, as follows.
You have accused me of saying that I personally believe that Yaakov Avinu is alive. I have challenged you to show us where I said that, and you couldn’t be bothered combing through the posts again. Great way to avoid admitting a mistake. Something worthy of your cohort too.
I have accused you of not knowing how to learn gemoro and meforshim and of spouting apikorsus (possibly without realizing). Others have backed me up on both points. They have also backed me up on how ridiculous your statements are in light of the above-qouted meforshim.It’s time you took a break and realized that you are talking against Torah sheb’al peh, which, to put it mildly, is not very good!
@philosopher
You cannot ignore the plain meaning in RASHI.
It is clear to anyone who learns the gmara with RASHI that according to him there is a measure of life in Yaakovs original body.Breathing – no.
Pulse – no.
It has to be so subtle that embalmers do not notice.I suggested brain activity.
Which is not noticeable,
It could be something else.But it is clear in RASHI’s words that he learns this ‘measure of life’ to be in his original guf.
Not like RAMBAN and not like R BACHAY.yb: Daniel [and / or other worthy individuals who have died] NEVER claimed it and therefore NEVER failed any test.
Think this is pashut kebe’a bekutcha.It’s takke pashut, but it’s not pashut that the Ramban meant that at all. That’s where you’re drawing a long bow, and I believe, unnecessarily.
If you pay careful attention to what Rashi is saying there, he writes that if Mashiach WAS someone who died, then it WAS Daniel. Neither the gemoro nor Rashi give any room for a second coming. So what did the Ramban have to be worried about? That the xian would say that it was yoshke even though he has died? If he would try to back his naarishkeit from the gemoro, he has no source. And if he’s going to deliberately misinterpret the gemoro, or totally ignore it, why would he care that Daniel did not make a claim?
Sorry but I still think that you’re trying to prove a point that you thought of but that has not source or even implication.
In other words, the Ramban is questioning in the first part but his conclusion is that Yaacov lo mes means that his non-death is a spiritual matter.
Philosopher, this is the problem when you ignore the answer to your question for three weeks, and suddenly wake up to address it when you think you found a challenge.
In my original post where I brought the Ramban, I acknowledged your point, and it’s irrelevant to the discussion!
Here is part of my original post, with the part where I acknowledge your point in bold:
D) Your exellent question stands even if you learn יעקב לא מת spiritually: The fact is that Gemara calls Yaakov לא מת, and Rashi on Chumash (and Tosfos in Gemara) proves it from the fact that the posuk doesn’t use the word מיתה regarding Yaakov, so how can it say מת אביהם!?
E) Ramban (who doesn’t necessarily interpret the Gemara physically) is bothered by the same question as you!
In other words: Your question is a question on the Chazal according to any pirush, physical or spiritual.
Ramban answers your question perfectly. It doesn’t matter if he is one of the meforshim who interpret it physically or not. The point is that your question has been asked and answered.
The answer works for all pirushim of Yaakov Lo Mes.This was the exact point I made originally with the Ramban, and you conveniently waited till everyone would forget this point before proposing your weak argument and pretending as if I ignored that part of Ramban.
P.S. The reason why I wrote “not necessarily” is because the last part of the Ramban is written in very vague and concise terms, so I’m not fully clear on his stance. However, even if he does hold that it is only spiritual, the answer still stand for Rashi et al, as I just explained.
Yakov would not be ‘in a deep sleep’ because how didn’t the embalmers notice his breathing ?
And his pulse ?
It says they thought him being dead ?It could be that his brain was functioning bederech nes without oxygen supply, and that was the measure of life within his body.
Thats why it does not say vayamat.This is indeed a plausible explanation, I don’t know. I was just bringing how the meforshim explain the word ויגוע here.
To yankel berel
A yasher koach for yesterday’s post. We have to remain focused on the only issue that matters, Chabad is not Judaism. It’s Christianity with Cholov Yisrael. Propaganda minister Shmei and his brain -dead minions are still trying to use Yaakov Lo Mes as a smokescreen to camouflage the truth. I would add one point. You may have opened a can of worms..Now Shmei will try to prove that Nasrallah is alive. He’ll come up with more Chabad bs “Torah.” You see how the Satan works. He calls the Gemara obscure and rejects it like Schneersohn but accepts ambiguous statements without hesitation. It’s an upside down world if you live in the world of Chabad. And the trash like Minuval and the disgraced Gemara teacher who was bounced out on his ARSo are even worse.
To ARSo
You accuse Philosopher of challenging you, a self styled master of Talmud. If you’re so great in Torah why did that yeshiva and possibly others kick you out? Maybe it’s because there are other skeletons in your closet. Hameivin Yavin. Hashem is watching. Your end is near.
Menachem shmei, the Ramban clearly concludes that Rashi saying Yaacov lo mes means he is spiritually alive. Your comments trying to dilute the conclusion of the Ramban is simply a word salad and nothing else.
Arso, you are really, really dishonest.
I can play the same game.
I’m also not saying that Yaacov lo mes means that he is alive in a spiritual sense. Rashi is saying that, not me.
Yankel berel, I am not the one to have bought the Ramban originally, this is my response to Shmei and Arso who have referred to it many times on this thread and I simply bought the complete version what the Ramban is saying which is clearly that Yaacov lo mes means that Yaacov is alive in a sense.
So my question to you is why didn’t you tell Shmei and Arso who were arguing what the Ramban says on Rashi, why didn’t you tell them that what you told me “@philosopher Quoting RAMBAN does not convince anyone of shitat RASHI”? NOW you are saying that when I bought the complete Ramban so everyone can see exactly what the Ramban is saying?
When they “quote” the Ramban and other meforshim out of context, no one has an issue. When I bring exactly what the Ramban says, in the entire context, all of a sudden it doesn’t prove anything….
Now, I will take the Ramban’s and Rabbeinu B’Chaya’s explanation that Yaacov lo mes means Yaacov is alive in a spiritual sense and in a second spiritual body over your insistence that it means that Yaacov’s brain is alive.
To ARSo
We in the thread want to know why that Yeshiva and probably others threw you out as a Rebbe. Your story that you left for family reasons doesn’t wash. You’re an established liar because you constantly call me a liar based on nothing. As much as Shmei and Lostspark hate me they’ve never called me a liar to the best of my memory but you do so repeatedly. So again why did they throw you out? My guess is that some of the boys started insulting you because you’re such a jerk and you beat them up. Of course I’m just guessing. It might be .much worse. You’re obviously capable of anything given that you’ve rejected Hashem and pledged your soul to the Chabad god.
Yankel berel, I left out in my last comment I wrote the Ramban is clearly saying Yaacov is alive in a sense, I meant to write he is alive spiritual sense.
1. It’s a relief having come to the realization that ignoring qwerty is the best thing. Saves me time and energy, and frustration that there are such ingorant and apikorsishe looneys who consider themselves clever and knowledgable. The only thing I regret is not having thought of it earlier.
2. Philosopher, I’m coming to the conclusion that it’s not worth arguing with you. BH you are not on the level of the rabid qwerty, but you ignore misinterpret and conclude things that are illogical. Note: I am not the only one who has said that. (Of course, anyone who takes my side in anything at all is passeled by the looney.)
The Ramban was quoted to show how HE understood Rashi, when you and others said that Rashi could not be taken seriously. Clearly the Ramban takes Rashi seriously enough to resolve the issue that you brought up (and that you won’t let go of). That’s the point that Shmei made originally.
And I think you got yankel berel’s point wrong. I understood him to be saying that you quoting what the Ramban himself holds does not have any bearing on what Rashi holds, and that when dealing with Rashi the Ramban clearly says that Rashi holds that Yaakov Avinu is alive. In other words, you’re quoting of the latter part of the Ramban did nothing to support your view.
Maybe I’m wrong about yankel berel’s intention. yankel berel can you please tell us whether I am right or whether philosopher is?
Lostspark, thanks for being concerned about me. But you have nothing to worry about. I’m married so you can save your prayers for other important matters.
Mods, one of the posters is going to far. He was often censored in the past, and I think his posts should be reviewed.
To philosopher
I’m glad to see you’re getting tough with the vermin like Benedict ARSo. They’re wretches whose entire lives have been failures so they think that by attacking others it validates their existence. The only way to deal with such trash is to crush it in the compactor.
ok, going for a smoke, tell me when is the last inning, I want to see who wins. I get only this line:
> Ramban was ALWAYS quoted in this thread
thanks, flattering for the comparison, but if you capitalize my nick, you should do at least the same with RAMBAN.
the Ramban clearly concludes that Rashi saying Yaacov lo mes means he is spiritually alive.
No. He brings the מאמר חז”ל from Rashi. Then he gives his own interpretation of Chazal. His pirush has nothing to do with Rashi’s pirush specifically, and definitely not with Rashi on Shas (which is what we are discussing).
Honestly, I don’t think we even know which way the Ramban held, because his words here can be understood both ways (as opposed to Maharsha, Rashba, etc. who clearly hold that Yaakov is alive spiritually. And Rashi, Rif, etc. who clearly hold that Yaakov is alive physically).
Either way, the point is that your question is clearly answered, no matter what the Ramban held.
Menachem: I don’t even know how this lo mes thing got started, but does it even make sense for them to try to argue this point with you personally? If I’m not mistaken, I thought you were openly a tichiyas-hameisim-first-nik, rather than a still-alive-nik if you’re catching my drift. Is that not correct?
For the record, I don’t mean for this to be a point of argument or to start anything up with you, and if you don’t want to answer on this already hostile thread then I understand.
@philosopher
It seems that RAMBAN and R BACHAY disagree with RASHI. They are stating their own opinion, not like RASHI.@ARSo
…Neither the gemoro nor Rashi give any room for a second coming. So what did the Ramban have to be worried about? That the xian would say that it was yoshke even though he has died? If he would try to back his naarishkeit from the gemoro, he has no source. And if he’s going to deliberately misinterpret the gemoro, or totally ignore it, why would he care that Daniel did not make a claim?
[ARSo to yb]
—————————-
Neither the gemoro nor Rashi give any room for a second coming. [ARSo]Not quite sure what you mean here ? How is Daniel supposed to take am yisrael out of galut if he stays dead ? There has to a thiyat hameitim i.e. a ‘second coming’ ?
@philosopher
So my question to you is why didn’t you tell Shmei and Arso who were arguing what the Ramban says on Rashi, why didn’t you tell them that what you told me “@philosopher Quoting RAMBAN does not convince anyone of shitat RASHI”? NOW you are saying that when I bought the complete Ramban so everyone can see exactly what the Ramban is saying?
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To be honest – I wasn’t following this discussion from up close as I consider it a mere distraction to the main issue. Happened to see your post so I reacted.The main issue is habads self contradictory innovations and pretzel maneuverings , cloaked in selective and misleading quotes coupled with deceptive sugarcoated statements.
Leading to …. ?
.To the real Jews
Several weeks ago I made the case that Chabad is the spiritual Amalek of our time. I’d like to support that thesis. The Torah tells us that the original Amalek went after the stragglers. So too Menachem Goebbels was smart enough to recognize that ARSo was trash and he could win him over by pretending to agree with him.Then we have the Minuval who was also ready to join with the Satan. Hashem knows who is on his side and who’s fighting against Him and each will have their just reward.
I thought you were openly a tichiyas-hameisim-first-nik, rather than a still-alive-nik if you’re catching my drift. Is that not correct?
You’re right, this conversation is irrelevant to the Rebbe. I haven’t voiced ANY opinion here about the Rebbe being alive or being Moshiach.
Philosopher started the conversation out of the blue, with this ignorant attack:
It is Lubavitche like you who twist everything out of context. For example when Rashi says that Yaacov avinu did not die there are numerous mefarshim that explain what it means. There is no mefoiresh saying that he is here with us physically. And yet i heard a Chabad rabbi claim that Rashi said that Yaacov is with us physically; that is a lie.
In a way I am happy about this discussion, because it led me to do more research into יעקב לא מת than I’ve ever done.
It is simply unbelievable that Shmei and Arso are trying to argue that the Ramban “proves that Yaacov’s guf is alive” when he is very, very clearly saying that Yaacov is alive spiritually!
This is the power of avodah zora, where they try to obscure the truth, where they lie outright, where they introduce confusion, where they twist reality and what our Torah teaches us, just so that it could align with their idolatrous ideology.
The Lubavitche Rebbe is dead, he is not alive in his kever ” like Yaacov Avinu is physically alive in his kever”. The Lubavitche rebbe is not moshiach, he is dead. The Lubavitche rebbe is a person you are attributing divine attributes to because a person who died and was buried cannot be physically alive so you turned him into an idol with deity-like powers. You believe he never died, that he is running the world, that you can pray directly to him, that he is everywhere, that he never “makes” mistakes. Shame on you.
You invented a new religion. It is almost the exact replica of the Christian religion. Your children will hold the Lubavitche rebbe in higher regard than Hashem just like the Christians did with their religion. Their father-god was reduced to a “person of the same substance as the universe” because he couldnt be on a higher plane than Yoshke who was born a human being and yet takes the center stage in their religion… Yoshke who started out as their moshiach but never came back is now their god… Its disgusting. The new Chabadianity is equally disgusting.
Yankel berel, you wrote “The main issue is habads self contradictory innovations and pretzel maneuverings , cloaked in selective and misleading quotes coupled with deceptive sugarcoated statements.
Leading to …. ?”Exactly that is the issue.
Yankel berel, you wrote, “It seems that RAMBAN and R BACHAY disagree with RASHI. They are stating their own opinion, not like RASHI.”
Ok. Perhaps.
The thing is, I didn’t bring any meforshim to “prove” anything. I am merely bringing the meforshim, at this point in the argument, that were twisted out of context when they tried to “prove that Rashi meant that Yaacov is physically alive” to show that they were totally and deliberately misinterpreted. Even the Gemorah 5b:9 was misinterpreted. This is how they teach “avodah zora style”, by deliberate misinterpretations and word salads.
To the group
Menachem Shmei writes in his last post, “I haven’t voiced any opinion here about the Rebbe being alive and being Moshiach.” This says all you need to know about the primordial serpent. He refuses to express any view because he knows that a day later he’ll adopt a new one. And his new Talmid is the same way. For three weeks he pounds away that Yaakov Avinu is alive and at the end denies ever having said so. To quote John Lennon, from Nowhere Man.”Doesn’t have a point of view knows not where he’s going to isn’t he a bit like you and me.” Where these two liars are going is quite clear. And Shmei keeps pleading with the mods to shut me up just because I call his wittle god a Kofer. Hey enjoy my writing. Even you acknowledge my superior talent.
Shmei claims the Maharsha says Yaacov is physically alive.
The Maharsha says:
אבל יעקב אבינו שמת בחו”ל היה לבעל דין לומר דאינו חי כמותן ולזה אמר דאף הוא חי וכאלו מת בא”י וא”ל וכי בכדי חנטו כו’ ומהיכא תיתי לך שהוא חי יותר משאר מתים שבח”ל וא”ל מקיש כו’ הנני מושיעך מארץ רחוק דהיינו ממצרים בחיים כאלו אתה מת בא”י כמו זרעך יוסף שבא ממצרים ארץ שביו בחיים לשם:The lying of that idol worshipper is a tragicomedy. Also funny, as well as a tragedy, is that people are so quick to side with someone who sounds legitimate and knowledgeable without investigating matters themselves. How easy it is to shlep others into believing nonsense.
To yankel berel
The last paragraph of your latest post really says it all. It’s really a restatement of what Shmei said in the post that followed yours to wit that he never reveals any of his beliefs. This way he can continue being an idolater but no one can prove it. The positions of the real Jews in this thread are crystal clear. We believe in Hashem Ain Od Milvado. It’s very simple. Shmei and his fellow idolaters think that they’re pulling the wool over G-d ‘s eyes, but they’re sadly mistaken.
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