Chabad Media Won

qwerty: To Benedict ARSo. I’m waiting for an answer or to see how you try to squirm out of the question.

I don’t see a question.

On the other hand, there are a number of questions that I have asked you that you have not answered. For example, how to you justify praying with idolaters? And, where did Rabi Akiva say that associating with (or perhaps it was supporting) an idolater makes one like an idolater?

And there are others…

Yankel berel, you are exactly right. Of course their rebbe can’t be moshiach.

I’m just saying what they believe which is that he’s really alive and coming soon to bring the geulah and fulfill the prophecies…

To coffee addict

Very nice but Shmei will squirm out of it, ignore or change the subject like the pathological liar he is. Let the “goon” ARSo answer the question. He’s a total moron believing that Yaakov is alive because Shmei said so. I

To the group

I tried to engage in a discussion with ARSo but he’s acting like a jerk, so AFAIC he’s persona non grata. If he wants to end up with Shmei, gezunterheit.

To yankel berel

I didn’t understand your point. Are you implying that I don’t consider Lubavitchers to be Jewish? I certainly do and therefore Lostspark will be held accountable for yesterday’s despicable statement. He violated several Lavin and Ashes. Despite what L Rebbe said. Gehinnom still exists.

To always

I brought up the Halacha of studying Kabbalah after 40 because ARSo was insinuating that philosopher was Chayav Misah for learning Gemara. Interestingly he has no problem with Lubavitchers who violate the Kabbalah at 40 edict. In addition he won’t criticize Lostspark’s anti-Semitic trope directed at a Godol Byisrael. The Gemara says that anger is a form of idolatry. BA’s jealousy of my superiority has turned him into a supporter of Chabad idolatry.

To ARSo

I quoted Rabbi Plutchok telling me,”Everything you say about Chabad and the Rebbe is correct.” This means I have his Haskomah. But no I didn’t check the Hitler comparison with him, but Dr. Berger agrees with it so that’s reliable. I did quote Rabbi Plutchok saying that the Rebbe’s gaavah was so enormous he convinced himself that he’s god. That says it all As for the question I asked you. There’s actually two of them both on 9/17 at 20:49 am. One is a question and one is a challenge. The challenge is for you to name a living non-Chabad Rabbi who says Yaakov Avinu is still physically alive. The question is based on your statement. You said that if the discussion was Menachem’s belief in the LR and Moshiach you would disagree with everything he wrote. I asked you why you would disagree with him. I’m sure he has phony sources for this garbage. As for the Rabbi Akiva quote, bli Neder I’ll see my Rav tonight and get it. If I’m wrong I’ll admit it. Finally as I’ve said numerous not all Lubavitchers are idolaters and even those who are largely keep it to themselves so there’s no problem davening with them

Coffee,

I would like to ask you a question (according to Rashi et al in the plain and pashut sense)
We say תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה קהילת יעקב the word מורשה (according what I heard at least) is that it means inheritance (and because we say קהילת יעקב it’s understood from יעקב) how can an alive person give over an inheritance, inheritance is only done after death?

Additionally
Doesn’t it say Hashem doesn’t affix His name to a person while he’s alive? (Hashem said to Moshe “אלקי אביך” and the midrash says that’s how Moshe knew he passed away) yet Hashem says אלקי יעקב

Excellent questions on Rashi and the other meforshim!
I suggest you look into it, find some nice answers, and maybe use this as a Dvar Torah or pilpul that you can deliver for parshas Vayechi.

It is obviously unnecessary to point out that even if we have unanswered questions on a true talmid chacham (like Rashi et al), that doesn’t ch”v invalidate their pshat.

However, I’ll give some thoughts that may answer your questions:

THOUGHTS TO ANSWER YOUR FIRST QUESTION:

1. The idea of מורשה is mainly emphasizing the WAY that Yidden received Torah: Just as a yerusha is passed automatically to all the children, even a little baby, so to Torah belongs to every Jew just because he/she is Jewish (as the Rambam writes: כֶּתֶר תּוֹרָה הֲרֵי מֻנָּח וְעוֹמֵד וּמוּכָן לְכָל יִשְׂרָאֵל. שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (“תּוֹרָה צִוָּה לָנוּ משֶׁה מוֹרָשָׁה קְהִלַּת יַעֲקֹב”. כָּל מִי שֶׁיִּרְצֶה יָבוֹא וְיִטּל.

This doesn’t necessarily mean that we are getting Torah from a dead person. On the contrary, we are inheriting Torah FROM HASHEM.

2. קהלת יעקב does not necessarily imply an inheritance from Yaakov, for the Jewish people are called בני ישראל\כלל ישראל\בני יעקב\קהלת יעקב all the time, not necessarily referring to something that they have received from Yaakov himself.

Actually, the Ramban writes that מורשה קהלת יעקב means that Yaakov himself RECEIVES the inheritance as well:
וְדָרְשׁוּ רַבּוֹתֵינוּ (מדרש תהלים א), שֶׁלֹּא אָמַר מוֹרָשָׁה בֵּית יַעֲקֹב אוֹ זֶרַע יַעֲקֹב וְאָמַר קְהִלַּת יַעֲקֹב, לְרַמֵּז שֶׁיִּקָּהֲלוּ רַבִּים עֲלֵיהֶם וְתִהְיֶה הַתּוֹרָה לְעוֹלָם מוֹרָשָׁה לְיַעֲקֹב וּלְכָל הַנִּקְהָלִים עָלָיו, הֵם הַגֵּרִים הַנִּלְוִים עַל ה’ לְשָׁרְתוֹ וְנִסְפְּחוּ עַל בֵּית יַעֲקֹב, וְנִקְרְאוּ כֻּלָּם קְהִלָּתוֹ.
“Torah will always be an inheritance FOR YAAKOV and all those who gather around him.”

3. The Gemara (Sanhedrin 91b) states that the inheritance of Torah was since ששת ימי בראשית, way before the birth – and certainly death – of Yaakov:
תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה קהילת יעקב מורשה היא לכל ישראל מששת ימי בראשית.

These are just some points I thought of right away.
תן לחכם ויחכם עוד.

—

A THOUGHT TO ANSWER YOUR SECOND QUESTION:

Hashem said אלקי יצחק during Yitzchak’s lifetime. Rashi asks (בראשית כח, יג), how can this be, לֹּא מָצִינוּ בַּמִּקְרָא שֶׁיִּחֵד הַקָּבָּ”ה שְׁמוֹ עַל הַצַּדִּיקִים בְּחַיֵּיהֶם לִכְתֹּב אֱלֹהֵי פְּלוֹנִי?

Rashi answers: כָּאן יִחֵד שְׁמוֹ עַל יִצְחָק, לְפִי שֶׁכָּהוּ עֵינָיו וְכָלוּא בַבַּיִת, וַהֲרֵי הוּא כְמֵת וְיֵצֶר הָרָע פָּסַק מִמֶּנּוּ, תַּנְחוּמָא – Yitzchak was different because his eyes became dimmed and he was confined to the house, he was like dead and the yetzer harah already left him.

Maybe, the same can be said about Yaakov: Since he is in a state SIMILAR to death (as Rashi writes: נדמה להם שהוא מת – he seemed dead to them), it is okay to say אלקי יעקב.

Again, this is just a thought.
תן לחכם ויחכם עוד.

To the group

Maharsha explains Yaakov Lo Meis to mean that his soul is immortal. So Maharsha and Ohr Hachaim don’t learn the Gemara literally. More good news. This time Shmei got caught with his pants down As I’ve said on many occasions Schneersohn’ is a lying Kofer because he rejected the Gemara in Cheilek. Again, Rava said that the events at the final redemption will mirror what happened at Yetzias Mitzrayim, meaning that only a small percentage will be redeemed. Since the Rebbe rejected this Gemara, all Chabad has to excuse his Kefirah. This is what Shmei came up with. He quoted Rav Yochanan saying, “It’s not satisfactory to Hashem that you said this about them is according to Resh Lakish most of the Jewish people will be doomed to Gehinnom. rather even if one learned only one law he has a share in Olam Habo. Very nice. Here’s the problem..That quote has nothing to do with Rava’s statement which comes 30 lines later on the Amud. Another failed attempt by Shmei to cover up for the Kofer in the box.

To coffee addict

You scored a direct hit with your two questions. Great job .ARSo the Shmei puppet can’t answer either question so he says, We don’t die from a question..” When we add my two questions is why do Maharsha and Ohr Hachaim not accept Rashi’s statement literally. So now there are 4 powerful challenges to the ridiculous notion that Yaakov is still alive. So you don’t kill yourself if you have a question but when you have 4 powerful questions that all prove that Rashi’s Pshat isn’t meant to be literal a rational person realizes he was wrong. As for Shmei’s bubba maasehs, pay no attention to them..I caught the lying Kofer in my previous post where he falsely represents a statement of Rav Yochanan. We have two liars. One ARSo whos unable to admit that he was fooled by Shmei. And Sbmei who pushed this Yaakov alive garbage to fool people into believing that his god Rebbuh is still alive.

Qwerty:This time Shmei got caught with his pants down As I’ve said on many occasions ———— is a lying Kofer [ר”ל, עפ”ל] because he rejected the Gemara in Cheilek. Again, Rava said that the events at the final redemption will mirror what happened at Yetzias Mitzrayim, meaning that only a small percentage will be redeemed. Since ———- rejected this Gemara, all Chabad has to excuse his Kefirah. This is what Shmei came up with. He quoted Rav Yochanan saying, “It’s not satisfactory to Hashem that you said this about them is according to Resh Lakish most of the Jewish people will be doomed to Gehinnom. rather even if one learned only one law he has a share in Olam Habo. Very nice. Here’s the problem..That quote has nothing to do with Rava’s statement which comes 30 lines later on the Amud. Another failed attempt by Shmei to cover up for the Kofer in the box.

Qwerty, a small tip: When asking a question, express a little less anger and hate in your tone; that way, you’ll look like less of a fool when it is answered.

You are correct that Rav Yochanan didn’t make his statement directly to Rava, but you are wrong because Rav Yochanan made his statement THREE times on the page, and you only noticed the ONE time that wasn’t relevant (“you see what you want to see”)!

The other two times, Resh Lakish stated that a portion of Jews wouldn’t be redeemed (though nowhere near the amount that Rava holds), and Rav Yochanan ARGUED, and said that Hashem isn’t happy with this.

In my post that you are quoting, I wrote all of this in short because I already explained it at length in an earlier post. I though you would remember.

The point is: Even Resh Lakish argues with Rava, and Rav Yochanan certainly does. The same is regarding Rav and Rav Kahana on the page.

And even Rava is explained by meforshim NOT to mean that Jews will miss out from Redemption.

If you don’t understand any of this because it’s to complicated for you, fine. But drop all of the attacks on anything that you can’t grasp.

P.S. Here is an excerpt of my earlier post where I explained the sugya at length (full post is September 5, 9:54am):

The posuk says that at the time of redemption, “two thirds will be wiped out and one third will remain.”
Thirds of what?
Resh Lakish says that only one third of the Jews (Arpachshad ben Sheim’s descendants) will survive, all others will die.
R’ Yochanan says, “Hashem is not happy with you saying such a thing” – that so many Jews (or non-Jews, depends on which meforash) will die! Instead, one third of Sheim’s descendants will survive. i.e., ALL the Jews and many non-Jews will survive.

…Even the statement of Rava needn’t be understood literally (that most Jews will not be redeemed). Meforshim explain that the majority of Jews who won’t be present at the Geula refers to the many PREVIOUS generations of Jews from before the Geula. These people will rise for techiyas hameisim and greatly outnumber the group of Jews who were part of the generation that was present at the actual time of Geula. [See footnotes in Artscroll, referencing Maharal and Yaavetz.]

@ARSo
Re RAMBAN agreeing to RASHI whether Daniel could be mashiach.

1] I cannot imagine RAMBAN giving a public answer in front of the King and afterwards sending written accounts all over Spain , all the while knowing that RASHI , the foremost mefaresh on the gmara , is disagreeing with his pshat. If RAMBAN uses that as proof klapei huts and klapei pnim [for his coreligionists who were under constant pressures to convert] , It must have been in RAMBAN’s own opinion ,totally ironclad.

Not something which someone could come tomorrow and say – hey, this is against an offene RASHI in sanhedrin.
Per force that he agrees with RASHI.

2] RAMBAN consistently brings , and argues with RASHI wherever he disagrees with his pshat , whether al hashas or al hatorah. If he would argue with RASHI in sanhedrin, why is he keeping quiet about it ?
Per force that he agrees with RASHI.

3] So , if RAMBAN agrees with RASHI that Daniel is a fitting candidate even though he was niftar already , then why is he disqualifying j on the grounds that he died ? The answer is simple. There is no problem in dying in of itself. There is a problem ,however, in dying WITHOUT realization of nevu’ot hanevi’im.

Why is that a problem ? Because we cannot have a situation of a free for all vacancy, where first come first served, the mashiach job is open for all wannabe’s who happen to lay claim to throne.
So, to lay a claim and start the mashiach process and FAIL by dying [dissappearing/hiding/going on permanent sick leave] without realization of the nevu’ot , is a reliable filter to keep out all plastic mashiachs.

Daniel, however, never started , never lay a claim to the throne, so why should he be any less qualified than a living person who would want to lay a claim and be equally subject to the reliable filter we mentioned before ?

So, there is ample reason to reject j ,according to all of RASHI’s explanations, on the sole grounds that he started and subsequently failed
Ditto with habads late leader .

There is no point whatsoever going into whether Yaakov Avinu died or disappeared. This is totally irrelevant here.
.

To coffee addict

Let’s focus on your statement that Hashem doesn’t attach His Name to someone who’s dead. So Shmei answers that regarding Yizchok the term Elokei Yizchok was used even though he was alive. So Shmei speculates that “perhaps” we can say the same about Yaakov, to wit since he seemed dead we can say he was dead sort of. So now we need Shmei to invent his own Torah to prove the insanity that Yaakov is still alive. The Gaon said that the simplest answer is the truth. And the simplest answer is that When Rashi said that Yaakov is alive he meant alive as per Maharsha and/or Ohr Hachaim, that is not literally alive. Surely youRashi wasn’t following the Pshat of a lying weasel like Shmei who needs to believe that Yaakov is alive to convince dummies like ARSo that the Rebbe is still alive. Why doesn’t ArSo see what’s obvious to all? Because he’s insanely jealous of me and can’t deal with the thought that I beat him Nebach.

qwerty: ARSo was insinuating that philosopher was Chayav Misah for learning Gemara.

Another brazen lie! (You tend to do that, following the premise that a big lie will be believed. I wonder which mass murdered you got that from…)

Show where I insinuated that or tell us all publicly that you were wrong. That’s a challenge, and if you don’t face up to it you should never play chess again!

qwerty, I assume to me: BA’s jealousy of my superiority…

You are possibly more deluded than the Lubaviches who say their rebbe is alive!

Philosopher, I once wrote this in response to one of your “challenges” from the “Rif”:

“I read and reread the Rif in the Ein Yaakov and I still can’t find what you’re referring to that יעקב לא מת was only until Eretz Yisroel (I do remember a different meforash saying that, not the Rif).
Would you be so kind as to quote the words that you’re referring to (as I requested once already)?”

Well, I found the meforash who says this, it’s the Chochmas Menoach, but not the Rif, as I said.

Meanwhile, it’s Philosopher and Qwerty who are misquoting meforshim (Philosopher: the Rif. Qwerty: Ohr Hachaim) while they claim (baselessly) that I am doing it.

Gigi, do you believe that the Lubavitche rebbe is running the world, that you can pray to him, that he’s everywhere, that he’s buried alive, that he never makes mistakes?

To ARSo

You make a lot of points so I’ll try to deal with them one by one. I asked you to name a living non Chabad Rabbi who says Yaakov is still alive and you refuse. This means that you are on an island with lying Lubavitchers against all real Jews. Second, when I said that you think philosopher is Chayav Misah I was kidding like yankel berel was kidding when he implied that I think Lubavitchers aren’t Jews. Sadly, you have no sense of humor which is another reason you’re jealous of me. As for Rav Gigi’s comment I found it on line and he quotes the Ohr Hachaim as understanding Yaakov Lo Med non literally. If I found it you can find it. In addition, I found a Dear Torah from Benjamin Rose who quotes the Ksav Sofer and he also learns Yaakov Lo Mes non literally. Next, your statement about Dr. Berger. A little lomdus. Rabbi Sacks said that the Rebbe studied Hitler. If he studied him it was for a reason(s). Chabad considers themselves superior to all other Jews. In addition the Rebbe’s goal was to conquer the world. I have spelled that out in several posts. Dr. Berger personally told me that the Rebbe spoke on several occasions about conquering the world. So why is it so difficult for you to understand that Dr. Berger would agree that the Rebbe picked up ideas from that Satan? Now let’s end with two points. You admit that Shmei brings phony sources to prove the Rebbe is Moshiach. Doesn’t that Posuk him in general. Second please tell me where Artscroll says that Rashi holds Yaakov Lo Mes literally. I will certainly check it out and if you’re correct I’ll acknowledge as much.

Menachem, thanks for the link to the Or Hachayim. I hadn’t managed to look through it properly myself.

I am not reading this thread inside as I don’t think there is a way to convince either side, but this was not clear to me:

> Resh Lakish argues with Rava, and Rav Yochanan certainly does

Maybe, this imples that Resh Lakish is as alive as Yaakov Avinu?

To philosopher

You’ll recall that I referred to Shmei as the primordial serpent aka the Yetzer hora. What I meant is that they never give up. Yesterday coffee addict checkmated Yaakov Lo Meis. A normal person would acknowledge that he was beaten. What does Shmei do? He tries to fend off my challenge and he “forgets” coffee’s proof. Satan never gives up because he’s a Malach of Hashem and he must continue his mission. Shmei can’t give up because he’s following his god.

To philosopher

You’ll recall that I referred to Shmei as the primordial serpent aka the Yetzer hora. What I meant is that neither one ever gives up. Yesterday coffee addict checkmated Shmei’s literal interpretation of Yaakov Lo Meis. A normal person would acknowledge that he was beaten. What does Shmei do? He tries to fend off my challenge and he “forgets” coffee’s proof. Satan never gives up because he’s a Malach of Hashem and he must continue his mission. Shmei can’t give up because he’s following his god.

Qwerty, they know deep down that their worship of their rebbe is wrong and that is exactly why can’t stop “defending” their beliefs that Yaacov is buried alive, that it’s “sinas chinum” to fight against Chabad idolatry, and all other deliberately skewed beliefs they use it to “prove them right” because that is the blanket they hide under under. If the blanket is ripped away they have to face their idolatrous beliefs. They are not looking for the truth, they are dishonest. Therefore, I checked out. I’m ignoring all their arguments that are covers for their idolatrous beliefs and I’m repeating the same core questions about their beliefs that they refuse to answer.

You were the one that advised me not to engage in conversation with the snake like Chava, I suggest you do the same. Just like all who engage and engaged in idol worship throughout history, they cling to their beliefs regardless. You said yours, just let it go. We can and should talk about it their idolotry but it’s a waste of time to continue arguing with them, it is their choice to believe what they believe in.

To philosopher

Your basic points have been obscured by the Yaakov Lo Mes discussion but I intend to do something about that. Yesterday I was in shul for Mincha Maariv on the East Side. A Rabbi saw me writing on line and asked what I’m doing. I told him I’m fighting Chabad. He made a face so I explained, “Do you know they believe the Rebbe is god?” He responded,”I know but not all of them believe it.” He’s a very nice guy and a big Talmid Chacham so I decided not to pursue the discussion any further People know that Chabad is idolatry but they don’t care because the Yeshivas pound away about Loshon Hora Sinas Chinam etc that they’re paralyzed to inaction. . The Gemara says that when there’s idolatry in the world Hashem’s a in her flares. How much moreso when the idolaters are trying to firm a new Judaism sans Hashem.

Menachem,

I accept your answers to my previous question

Another question

יעקב not dying is considered a נס (especially since someone can’t survive without air)

Hashem only makes a נס if there’s a specific reason for it, Hashem wouldn’t split the yam suf if בני ישראל didn’t have to cross it

What’s the reason for this נס?

qwerty to me: Do you agree that the Rebbe declared himself god clothed in human form in 1962 and that he said he’s Moshiach in 1951 and that Lubavitchers believe they’re better than all other Jews and that the Rebbe’s goal was to conquer the world? Please tell me which if any of those statements you disagree with.

Not sure whether you mean do I agree that he declared/said/believed all these things – the answer to which is I’m not sure – or do I agree that all those things are true, which, of course, I do not.

But why are you asking me weird questions? Look though all my posts on all earlier threads and you will see clearly that I attacked the many things the LR claimed, citing proof after proof how it was self-aggrandizement. And, if may so humbly say, my attacks were far more coherent and logical than most others’. My view has not changed. BUT…

That does not mean that everything a Lubavicher says is incorrect, even if they have an agenda. Lubavichers say to put on tefillin daily. Do you agree with that? I certainly do. Undoubtedly many of them see others putting on tefillin as the first stage of becoming Lubavichers, but that is irrelevant to the question as to whether putting on tefillin is importatn or not.

Same with the discussion about Yaakov Avinu. I have no idea whether Shmei has an agenda – I suspect that he does – but he is right in saying that according to Rashi and others Yaakov Avinu is still alive. If he would state a crooked agenda I would argue with it, but I would not argue by saying the Rashi does not hold that Yaakov Avinu is alive, as it is totally untrue.

qwerty to yb: So now ArSo is also arguing with you. He states that Menachem Shmei cites phony sources to prove that the Rebbe is Moshiach but on the other hand he defends Shmei against those trying to disprove that the Rebbe is Moshiach.

Once again, the big lie. Show me – and don’t ignore this – where I said that Shmei cites phony sources, and where I defended him against those trying to prove that the LR is Mashiach.

Of course in your humble, non-arrogant and very lucid mind, defending – actually, agreeing – with Shmei about Rashi’s view, is arguing with those who don’t think the LR is Mashiach.

Someone, anyone, please explain that logic. Qwerty you’d better hope that you don’t like the same type of soup that Shmei likes because then you will be supporting his alleged view that the LR is Mashiach. No one else on this thread will understand that logic, but you should because it’s just paraphrasing what you write.

ArSo is a contrarian and or a nut job

To paraphrase Chazal, better to be called a nut job one’s entire life than to be an apikorus – not to mention someone who prays with idolaters – like you who distorts the words of meforshim.

Coffee,

Thanks for the civil discussion.

In regards to your question as to why Hashem would do this miracle of יעקב לא מת:

This question has bothered all of the meforshim, and this is whether or not they took it to refer to physically or not – what is this unique limmud about Yaakov not dying, as opposed to other tzaddikim? (Regarding other tzaddikim it says במיתתן קרוים חיים. Why does Yaakov have a possuk that teaches even more – that he didn’t die?)

You can learn the meforshim on Chumash and Gemara for all of their explanations.

Many explain this in connection with the idea of מטתו שלמה, since there was no פסול in his זרע that caused a stronger level of eternity for him.

There is also the idea that he was בחיר שבאבות who was so saturated with Torah, that the eternity of Torah rubbed of on him.

Some explain that this was really the entire discussion at the seuda, Rav Nachman and Rav Yitzchak were debating the Torah perspective on how we look at nature vs Torah.
That’s connected to the first part of the discussion about the physical dangers of speaking divrei Torah at a seuda, etc.

אין כאן המקום להאריך.