- This topic has 347 replies, 45 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 3 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
as i wrote: litvaks should not be explaining to chabad what chassidus is, chabad learns chassidus for 3 hours a day part of seder yeshiva. that is thousends and thousends of hours over the yrs.
no litvak should take one line of tanya or another sefer chassidus and tell chabad they are wrong.
they can if they want, say that they beleive the whole chassidus movement is wrong, good for them.
i couldn’t care less. (just anyone who learned some chassidus – enough to understand what they are learning – sees that they start having much more chayus in yiddishkiet, it reaveals deeper levels of their neshama)I just love the “be quiet because you’re not chabad” line of thinking.
Any argument is automatically over because anyone who isn’t chabad is automatically wrong about anything to do with chasidus.
It’s like how secular women say that you’re not allowed to have an opinion on women’s issues if you’re not a woman
It’s garbage.
> says anything about Mussar as Rav Yisroel Salanter explained it
Someone already asked R Salanter about this. He said – in the Gemora. Questioner: I can’t find your answers in my gemora. R Salanter: they are in _my_ gemora.
Dear Avira,
And that is why to best Chabadsniks in an argument you let them set the terms. Most can’t debate anything once you agree with them initially. It’s unfamiliar territory for those that are not well rounded.
@seichel You are incorrectly equating Chabad practices and beliefs with “Chassidus”. Vizhnitz, Belz, Satmar, etc. don’t spend three hours a day to go over their late Rebbe’s happy birthday letters.
@nomesorah This is personal experience and things I’ve been told. In places where Rav Hirsch changed his mind, his earlier writings were not translated. The one well known instance is in “The 19 Letters” he says that he will write a sefer called “Moriah” in which he will define what Talmud Torah im Derech Eretz is. However, he never wrote the sefer and never wrote a clear cut definition of it because later in his life he felt that too specific a definition won’t work for later generations.
@DaMoshe Very well, then a Rebbe is someone appointed by his Chassidim. However, said Chassidim cannot appoint a book to be their Rebbe.for all those ywn rabonim critizing lubavitch by saying that their practices are not chasiddishe practices since belz, gur, vizhnitz etc dont do them:
it must be noted that lubavitch/chabad is a differnt type of chassidus .
The abovementioned are chasidus chagas, whose focus is mainly on their rebbe while lubavitch is a chassidus chabad, mainly focused on the rebbes torah etc. therefore to say that chabad’s learning of chasidus for hours is not a chasidishe practice purely shows your ignorance that you are unware of the two types of chassidusenDear Yserbius,
That’s sounds like minor changes.
do u consider urself a misnagid?
Yserb, appointing a sefer to be a rebbe, so to speak, was only done once as far as i know. In Europe, they used to call Breslovers the “toiter chasidim,” because they never appointed a new rebbe after Rav Nachman. He was a unique case; he didn’t want a successor in the form of a rebbe… Breslov is a fascinating body of chasidishe torah that isn’t learned very often. But the satmar rov, for instance, was extremely machshiv rav nachman.
Dear Avira,
Another example.
The sefer Nefesh Hachaim.
There is a ref above to halakha favoring Rav’s son for the position. Could you refer to this halakha, I’m interested to hear it. I am familiar though with multiple references favoring meritocracy: R Yehuda refusing to see someone who is “20 gen from Ezra” – I’ll see him on his own merits, but if not …
selections of Roshei yeshiva based on comparison of ocean v. harif. There is a gemora where two T’Ch are taken to burial to EY over a narrow bridge, and the idea that Rav ben Rav has priority over Rav ben non-Rav is condemned.Yes, there is a concern of non-selection of R Akiva instead of Raban Gamliel because of his lowly yichus.
I also wonder at the quality of modern leaders who are able to educate their offspring to become capable rebbes and rabonim.
As you have become bolder in your cynical comments regarding halacha, rabbis, leaders and frum community members it has been more difficult to approve your posts with a mere edit. Please try to curb your negativity toward Torah life, or better yet find someone who can help you understand it better.
@n0mesorah My point was that the Rav Hirsch Foundation picked and chose what to publish and a lot of what they left out was because there seemed to be discrepancies between earlier and later writings.
@AviraDeArah And it’s a bad idea. People need leaders to lead them. No modern gadol, no matter how great, can possibly be so perfect that the answer to any potential question can be found in his writings.@aposhiteyid @melbournian I feel like you’re just making excuses and moving the goalposts over here. Chassidus, at no point preceding 1996, was ever about spending a massive percentage of your day giving a late Rebbes writings and speeches the same chashivus as a blatt gemara. I don’t know what “Chassidus Chagas” is, but it sounds like something invented specifically to define Chabad in a way so that it still falls under the category of “Chassidus”.
Yaerb, it’s not that they say that all life’s answers can be found in rav nachmans seforim. They believe in hiskashrus, but not in the heretical, rebbe-save-me davening to rebbe stuff.
Rather, they believe that when one connects their neshoma to the neshoma of a tzadik through learning his seforim, they are given wisdom and insight into their lives and their issues.
It’s also chutzpah to just dismiss a mahalach and a mesorah off the cuff like that without giving it any analysis or even reading their seforim. Breslov is recognized as a legitimate branch of chasidus, and is wildly successful in helping peolle who feel that they are enslaved to their yatzer hora. Not only that, rav nachmans insights into psychology were so profound and ahead of their time, that a leading Israeli psychologist said that rav nachman was the world’s greatest therapist!
With my talmidim, many times i can identify and give them advice based on what I’ve learned in likutei moharan and other seforim – BUT they’re complicated and you need someone level headed to explain them to you. I had one such person in yeshiva. Rav yaakov neir shcechter is another such example, recognized by the eidah charedis and the world in general as a big tzadik and talmid chacham.
You’d be surprised at how many times I’ve seen a kid change behaviors when he hears a vort from rav nachman; I’m not talking heavenly, lofty ideas; lots of what he and rav nosson write is down to earth. Things about taking it day by day, not being meyaesh…but with depth and meaning, not trite cliches.
As for how their mesorah is passed down, they had rabbonim and manhigin, but none would assume the position of rebbe or have chidushim.
Dear Yserbius,
Ohhhhhh, that is what you mean!
Different story. They are is dishonest as the other publishers and edited a great man’s thinking to do match their own. They are too late. There has been much written about Rav Hirsch’s Torah and even more given over verbally. Down the road someone will print the corrections.
“Chassidus at no point preceding 1769, was ever about spending a massive percentage of your day giving a late Rebbes writings and speeches the same chashivus as a blatt gemara.”
Fixed that for you.
Rav Yaakov Yosef spend every day of his life collecting and authenticating his dead Rebbe’s teachings.
And it is a major component to every legitimate chassidus.
It’s one of the big separators between the legitimate and the wannabes.
Dear Mod, I am very sympathetic with your situation – you are the only one(s) have the pain reading all the stuff that does not pass the thresholds. I still follow my (Kotzker) Rebbe who suggested that the “best” way to achieve sholom is by throwing emes away …
in this case, I am particularly heartbroken that you chose to keep my worthless opinion posted, while censoring long list of references to Tanach and Gemora that I collected. I am sad that, admittedly, my in-you-face way of posing what I think is a serious question, you felt a need to delete the words of scripture as you felt the honor of your teachers needed protection.
I feel like Eli Hakohen, whose story I referred to – he survived the bad news about his family, but not about Hashem’s ark … I can only think that you mis-copied-pasted and meant to delete my opinion and post Tanach quotes. If this is what happened, pls remove my words and restore the words of Torah.
If it was in my face it wouldn’t have been a problem. Your ‘long list of references to Tanach’ are often, as above, followed by opinion on what probably was meant or flippantly applying a tzadik to your present day scenario in ways lacking respect of people of their stature. It was those opinions which I had deleted.
Thanks for asking.
Avirah, it is said in the name of the Chofetz Chaim and the Brisker Rov that the original objections of the GR”A to Chassidism apply today to Lubavitch and Breslov. Even in Skewere they hid some of the Rav Nachman’s writings.
@n0mesorah I don’t think I was clear on what I was writing. I’m talking about the main Rav Hirsch translators, which has been lead by a group of his descendants (mostly from the Breuer family) since the late 70s. These are people who have grown up learning Rav Hirsch as a family mesorah. They didn’t actually change anything (as far as I know), the biggest challenge is translating the German into modern English in a way that keeps to the original intent. However, they did choose to not publish many letters and speech transcripts for a variety of reasons. There’s no dishonesty, it’s just that things meant for a 19th century German Ba’al HaBatisch audience are not necessarily the type of Torah that resounds today.
And Rav Yaakov Yosef ZT”L may have dedicated his life to promoting his Rebbe’s teachings, but he did not advocate that everyone do the same. Nor did he have the idea that a Rebbe is no longer needed, since we have his writings and everyone can just learn from them. Yiddishkeit needs teachers. No one can learn Torah from books alone.
mdd, what is your source for your quote from the Chofetz Chaim and Brisker Rov?
Mdd, you are correct about the chofetz chaim’s statements.
However your statement about skver lacks context. Rav nachman’s chief opposition (actually, the only outspoken one i believe) was the Shpoler Zaydeh, which Skver comes from. So they don’t learn rav nachmans seforim in Skver. However, I’ve heard from someone impartial (not a skverer or a breslover) that he was counseling a bochur who remarked to the current skverer rebbe in new square that he was drawn to rav nachman, without knowing that skver is historicallly opposed to breslov. The rebbe didn’t tell him not to learn it.
Most historical machlokes between chasidusen have been settled.
“Most historical machlokes between chasidusen have been settled.”
Some in theory, others in reality.
Very few have been settled in both.
YS> However, they did choose to not publish many letters and speech transcripts for a variety of reasons. There’s no dishonesty, it’s just that things meant for a 19th century German Ba’al HaBatisch audience are not necessarily the type of Torah that resounds today. … Nor did he have the idea that a Rebbe is no longer needed, since we have his writings and everyone can just learn from them. Yiddishkeit needs teachers. No one can learn Torah from books alone.
1) R Soloveichik criticize modern man for conquering the space, but losing connection with time, while the Jews can relate to Avraham Avinu, etc. – but we got to admit that our times seem to be changing much faster, probably appropriate as zman moschiach is accelerating. So, translating R Hirsh from 19th to 21st century is nothing comparing with what to do in our days. Thus, R Moshe’s hatan can (controversially) claim that R Moshe would be OK with his grand-daughter learning Gemora ..
2) If we pre-screen Talmidei Chachomim for appropriate opinions to our times, we lose the sense of that dynamic. It is instructive to see evolution of R Hirsh’s thought in response to challenges of his time – to learn how we should be doing it now. This is why Bavli is learned (al pi Maharal) – because it gives us a methodology of thinking, not just the psak halocha. We need the same in modern environment. I do understand temptation to present modern Torah as easy digestible static Mishna – R Hirsh is this and R Aharon is that, but we don’t pasken from the Mishna and do not spend most of our lives learning it.
If we want to compare attitude of inheriting positions to old times, see Shmuel Alef 2:22,
Shmuel Alef 8:3, Divrei Hayamim II 12:1 how it worked for those with nevuah. Some interpret even Gen 27:41 and similar as a caution against strict inheritance rules. Gemora takes yichus into account in Berachos 27b, but see Menahos 53a, Moed Katan 25a.Aaq – totally incorrect.
Rabbinic positions are supposed to be passed down, see sefer kaftor veferach; it’s a vestige of malchus. Man malchi, rabbanan, etc..
@Always_Ask_Questions I didn’t mean for this to be a whole argument. I was just using Rav Hirsch as one example of how frum people don’t just wholesale translate and/or publish every time a Rov sneezes. You mentioned Rav Moshe, that’s a really good example. The last Chelek of Iggros Moshe was put out by his children and not him. Rav Moshe clearly did not want all of his unedited letters public, and there’s now a minor machlokes if the Feinstein family can make the decision as to how Rav Moshe would have wanted the letters released. Notably, his letter on brain death: Rav Moshe Sherer ZT”L insisted that Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L reversed his decision later on, but his children disagree.
Again, I’m not saying we should ignore the writings of dead gedolim. But they should be viewed as the lighthouses that guide us through the sea. But it is our living teachers being the ones who are driving the boat and tell us how and when to turn, and which lights are meant for different people.
btw for the peaple complaining chabad learns too much chassidus and sichos and not gemara
1) litvaks do the smae thing, they focus on r chaim, reb baruch ber, just learn the gemarah and rishonim!
2) so you have an issue that be look at our rebbe with too much respect, 1) its a clear mishnah מורא רבך כמורא שמים, כל המהרהר אחר רבו כמהרהר אחרי שכינה. many more, 2) one of the big issues the original misnagdim had with chassidus, was that the baal shem tov said that even tzadikim need to do teshuvah, they shouldnt be happy with their level of serving hashem, and that he was mikarev simple yidden, he sent his students – tzadikim to learn about ענוה and other middos tovos from simple jews. just saying, cuz now you say we give too much kavod to a real talmid chacham. whatever its all excuses. learn החלצו תרנט.Where did the “misnagdim” have a problem with having to do teshuva? And the besh”t was not tue first to say that everyone needs to do teshuva; it’s all over the seforim, including chazal in avos….repent one day before you die, as explained by the bartenura there
rabbeinu yonah is full of such sources
You’re making it out to be as though, chas Veshalom, the Gaon and the Tzlach thought themselves to be tzadikim (they didn’t) and that they were perfect the way they are and had no need to grow, arrogant Lithuanian rabbis..
And then comes the baal shem and says that you need to grow too. And here we were sitting here thinking we’re just great the way we are.
This js how they teach history in chabad bubble world???? Such a superficial minimization of the tzadikei olam, the gaonei hagaonim, gedolim who were ispashtusa demoshe – that zohar is not limited to chasidishe rebbes.
There were never such interactions, because first, the baal shem never met the misnagdim, and more importantly, the tzadikim were always growing, shteiging… there’s a famous story about the Gaon, printed at the end of nefesh hachaim, where he says that at his deathbed, the Gaon lovingly grasped his tzitzis, and said “what s world we live in, where for a few kopekz, one can purchase eternal life.”
Tzadikim ain lahem menuchah…
The chofetz chaim, hardly a chosid, was once seen by a talmid crying. It aas after he did a cheshbok hanefesh(he thought he was alone) and believed himself to be half chayav and half zakai…as chazal say.
How do you have the chutzpah to say such things? Have you ever spent time with a gadol byisroel outside of crown heights? Do you really think that we’re all arrogant and inferior?
@sechel83 Regarding your points
1) You are wrong. No Yeshiva has a regular seder on the letters of Rav Baruch Ber. The closest comparison is the Brisker Yeshivos that have Gemara shiurim focused on Rav Chaim and the Griz. And that only comes after learning the Gemara and Rishonim. Most Talmidim probably never even saw something written by Rav Chaim outside of the seforim he published in his lifetime. I think some Satmar Yeshivos have regular VaYoel Moshe sedarim, but they take a backseat to Gemara and more general Chassidus. Certainly not three hours a day.
2) Again, you’re equating Chabad with the rest of Chassidus. The issues I (and others) have with Chabad are exclusive to Chabad and don’t exist in other Chassiduses. We don’t have issues with amount of respect Chabad gives to the late Rav Schneerson ZT”L. The issue is about treating literally every drop of ink he put to paper as if it were direct min HaShomayim. There is chashivus in the writings of a gadol. However, one cannot say that we don’t need a leader because we have this gadols writings. We further cannot infer and pasken halachic shaylos based on something a gadol said in a specific time and place that may (or may not) still be relevant. We certainly cannot say that said writings take on the same kedusha as a blatt Gemara or (Lo Aleinu) Torah She’Bksav. Yiddishkeit in Galus has to be dynamic and has to continuously adjust course so that we can follow Chazal’s teachings the best. For that we need living leaders to guide us.
Avirah, in Skver they had a problem with Rav Nachman’s s Kabbolah writings (in my understanding). I doubt that bochur was learning them.
yserbius: 1) whatever stupid argument, but you can just say the rebbes maamarim and sichos are explanations on gemera, medrash, zohar.
2) ok, i dont understand the issue, but that’s defiantly how i treat the rebbes words. im thankful to hashem to (try to) be his chasid. in fact in the past yrs someone put out kuntrasim titled ומדייק בהמאמר, and they are incredible to see, he writes down the maamer exactly from the recording, and shows how every word even letter has a makor, even when the rebbe corrected himself there were 2 nuschaos etc, really fascinating. you can search on google to see it.The quote from Chofetz Chaim about the Gra’s cherem only applies today on Chabad and Breslov was said by Rav Elya Lopian in his name. I have heard from people who heard it from Rav Mattisyahu Salomon Shlita who heard it directly from Rav Elya Lopian.
@avira. thats exactly my point, those were the original complaints. (i cant argue about history, you can do research) today these ideas are laughable that even you think they could never have happened.
Edited for rudeness
@sechel83 I mean, you (and the rest of Chabad) do you I guess. However, based on your comments I really don’t think you are aware as to how different this sort of approach is to literally every other approach that Yidden have (or have ever had, for that matter). The whole concept of relying on something an individual wrote as your guide instead of a living breathing person. The idea that said writings are absolutely perfect and contain no mistakes. The writings which often aren’t even from that person, but second hand from someone who wrote it down. Prioritizing those writings over Gemara, Halacha, Rishonim, and other acharonim. It’s all just so different from how most Jews work (yes, even Chassidim), and I’m not sure you aware of that.
What happened to Dan Lekaf Zechus and Veahavta Lerayacha Kamocha? It is such a shame to see people post Lashon Hara about Chabad and other Jews. It is not your job to tell people what to do. It is not your job to judge them.
Cat, and what about ובערת הרע מקרביך? I can quote biblical verses randomly too.
Loving jews doesn’t mean accepting foreign ideas and avodah zara.
As for judging favorably; if you’ve noticed, me and the other posters here don’t make ad hominem insults about the Lubavitcher rebbe or even individual followers; i don’t really concern myself with how they are judged by Hashem, because it’s not my business. What is my business, as someone who cares about the Jewish people and the purity of our Torah, is when people run around with crazy ideas and convince others to follow them .
@Catlover613 No one is failing on being Dan Lekaf Zechus, nor are we posting Lashon Hara. The conversation (and all 4234876 conversations preceding it) is going something like this:
“The Chabad belief/practice of X is not part of Yiddishkeit and most Rabbonim find it problematic” at which point a Chabasker responds “Well, we believe/do X and it’s perfectly fine because Chabad believes/does X”
If it’s something bad, they would deny it. But they don’t, they just try and justify it. That’s all.
Sechel, please show me one source in the Gaon, tzlach, rav shlomo eiger, or any of the other strong opponents of chasidus, where they say that “this person came and told us to do teshuva”
Or, cite a source from a chasidishe sefer written at the time, like the toldos, kedushas levi, tanya, etc… Which says that the gedolei yisroel need to do teshuva and that they think they’re perfect the way they are.
I’m not interested in letters or sichos or whatever from contemporary people. Show me one source in the talmidei habesh”t or the misnagdim which says anything like what you’re accusing them of saying.
You’re not familiar with the gadol who saved an entire country from reform, and im the one who needs to learn history?
Seriously?
So now even the Gaon’s opinions about chassidus have to be watered down? Why is everyone so soft about not getting everyone’s approval for their life choices? Okay, so not everybody loves Chabad or whatever group. And Chabad and whatever group doesn’t love every Jew that doesn’t love them in the first place.
ראה כתר שם טוב קלב, הוספות צב, קלה,קלו,קלח,קמג,קנז, קנח
ראה תניא פרק ב, כט
ועוד ועוד@nom
That is your mistake. We all love all Jews and hope Chabad does too. The arguments are about Hashkofos not the people or even their life choices.
@n0meorah Go back to the beginning of the thread and read from there. This isn’t about love or hate. This is a discussion about practices and beliefs that are or are not part of Yiddishkeit.
Sechel, i don’t have keser shem tov available to me at the moment, but i looked at the tanya you cited…and of course, not even remotely close.
Perek 2 talks about the levels of neshomos of a generation… Doesn’t say that the misnagdim think that they’re ok the way they are.
Perek 29 does talk about “beinonim,” which are what we call tzadikim, who never sin, having to do teshuva all the time and constantly ignite the flames of their avodah, which no one’s arguing with. The tanya isn’t the first to say this; it’s all over chazal and rishonim, places that he himself quotes in that perek. He, again, does not accuse the misnagdim of being stagnant or thinking that they need to do teshuva.
I’d invest time to look at the keser shem tov, but so far in all of our conversations your sources have either been misrepresented or totally missing, so I’m not going to go out of my way just to refute another non existent source… if i happen to come across the sefer, i might look at it…tanya i looked at because i know the sefer and it’s in my living room, so it just took a few minutes of my time.
If you’re interested in making a “kiddush chabad,” you’re not doing a very good job. Defending these narratives you were taught, which are hateful and disrespectful to gedolei yisroel who were not chasidish, only exposes further the hypocrisy of “we love everyone,” that chabad so frequently says.
Is not Sechel point about learning “too much” achronim similar to the point made by the chayei adom in his hakdamah? (though I hope he knows who that is)
There are 2 aspects to learning
1) learning to fulfil the mitzvah. which can be accomplished with any learning (and I presume chassidus)
2) and learning to know what to do. which requires halachic knowledge
The Chayai adom laments those that “only” have 3 hours a day to learn and focus on gemarrah and remain halachic am haratzim
Or as a LOR once lamented to me “50% of sheilos asked to me are found straight in the kitzur”
So a lubavitcher with a seder in shulchan aruch Harav (or kitzur) would be ahead of any (only) daf yomi litvak in the eyes of the chayei adomMentsch, do you know how many litvishe and chasidishe baalei batim have joined dirshu’s mishnah berurah program? They learn practical halacha everyday and are tested on it. It’s incredible.
The poskim are clear that one who only has a short amount of time to learn should learn halacha, but there are other considerations; for some baalebatim, the responsibility they feel for finishing the daf yomi makes them learn, and they simply wouldn’t learn consistently otherwise. So that’s a reason for a Rav not to chastise his shul overv its daf yomi shiurim.
I’m not a proponent of the current state of daf yomi at all, as my previous posts on the subject indicate. But if it’s that or nothing… It’s obviously better.
But that’s besides the point; why do you think Lubavitch baalebatim learn shu”a harav everyday? They’re taught to learn tanya and their rebbes sichos everyday, with “chitas,” and “hayom yom,” etc… Maybe some halacha too. It’s not as if litvishe are discouraged or something.
Sefardi baalebatim have learned chok lyisroel for centuries.
Avirah
Dirshu MB doesn’t fulfill the chayei adoms wishes either
He specifically mentions long cycles. What is the dirshu cycle ? Once every 5+ years?
I do not know anything about sechel learning program. I am simply pointing out that his learning program is no different than the average litvak in terms of chashivus.
I am perfectly fine with labeling the average litvak (including myself) an am haaretz.
I may not prefer or even be machshiv chassidik learning, but that doesn’t make it any less chashuv in the eyes of the Rebonei Shel Olam.avaira, the point i was referring to in tanya was to explain what a tzadik is. perek bais explains the different levels of neshamos, a talmid chachon is a neshama diatzilus, if you want to understand a little what is means, look in the chabad biurim, or basi ligani 5729, or just take the words and have no clue what is means, 29 also takls about what a tzadik is.
keser shem tov was the first sefer printed of the teachings of the baal shem tov btw, you should learn the whole thing before criticize chabad, cuz youll see, its all there.Sechel – again, provide a source, and cite rhe words because im tired of looking up your wrong sources, that says that the gaon and tzlach thought they were fine rhe way they were, didn’t have to do teshuva, until the besht came and told them that they do, whereupon they opposed him.
One. Source. I don’t need hakdamos about what tzadikim are. Just give a source or admit you’re wrong.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.