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as i wrote i made a mistake and mixed together 2 sources. but check the 2nd source i mentioned. אגרת ט
על כן, אהוביי אחיי, שימו נא לבבכם לאלה הדברים הנאמרים בקצרה מאד (ואם ירצה ה׳ פה אל פה אדבר בם בארוכה), איך היות כל עיקר עבודת ה׳ בעתים הללו בעקבות משיחא היא עבודת הצדקה, כמו שאמרו רבותינו־זכרונם־לברכה: ״אין ישראל נגאלין אלא בצדקה״. ולא אמרו רבותינו־זכרונם־לברכה ״תלמוד תורה שקול כנגד גמילות חסדים״, אלא בימיהם, שתלמוד תורה היה עיקר העבודה אצלם, ועל כן היו חכמים גדולים תנאים ואמוראים. מה שאין כן בעקבות משיחא, שנפלה ״סוכת דוד״ עד בחינת רגלים ועקביים, שהיא בחינת עשיה, אין דרך לדבקה בה באמת ולהפכא חשוכא לנהורא דילה [נוסח אחר: דיליה] כי אם בבחינת עשיה גם כן, שהיא מעשה הצדקה, כידוע למשכילים, שבחינת עשיה באלקות – היא בחינת השפעת והמשכת החיות למטה מטה למאן דלית ליה מגרמיה כלום
here he is speaking about tzedaka i know, thats why i mentioned the other source, whatever, כל ספרי חסידות מלאים בדבר זה.
whats the point of learning torah btw? whats the point of mitzvos? what is torah and mitzvos?
im not trying to argue (im not interested to prove my point to someone who doesn’t know much chassidus) but im writing so maybe one drop of chassidus will enter someone who reads, and awaken his neshama.
tanya is one sefer, its called torah shebiksav of chassidus, learning only tanya is like learning chumash and being like a tziduki who tighs a sign on his hand for tefillin. learn all the seforim of the baal hatanya if you want. they are called מאמרי אדמור הזקן in case you dont know.I’m going to second what @AviraDeArah is saying regarding the non-Chabad outlook on Chabad writings. Many Chabadskers seem to be in total denial at the amount of importance the rest of the world gives to things like those written collections of drashos from Rav Schneerson ZT”L. Similar seforim are available for most gedolim from the 20th and 21st century and they are interesting things to peruse in your spare time or to get some hisoiroris out of. They certainly aren’t meant to pasken from, nor dedicate entire sedarim of your day to.
Continuing a narrative about tanya being “torah shebichsav” or whatever is just that – a narrative. You have no evidence that chabad ever looked at it that way before the last rebbe changed everything.
As for the igeres. Did you notice that he’s talking to working people? You left out the first part of the letter. He’s cautioning them to work and have families leshem shomayim.
For them, he’s saying that what will bring the geulah is mitzvos maasios in addition to their learning (he says gam kein), tzedaka being a prime example.
He’s coming laafukei the idea that all you have to do is learn, because lots of people think that way. Also, why do chessed if chazal say that torah is bigger?
He’s saying that in our time, ikvesa demishicha, they need physical involvement too(train the words ‘gam kein’)
And clearly, the baal hatanya didn’t spend all of his time or even most of his time doing chessed; he sat and learned all day, and was a massive talmid chochom.
He also says that il what he’s saying is a huge kitzur and that he’s going to explain to each chosid privately what he means, so saying nonchalantly that “the baal hatanya holds that the ikkar avodah is tzedaka” is not intellectually honest.
additional sources about davening
לקוטי תורה תצא לח, ב
לקוטי תורה פ׳ בהעלותך לב, ד
תורת חיים פ׳ נח נד, ג
just a few, anyway the point was about the importance of davening thats why chassidim spend hours on preparation and the actual davening
the misnagdim were against this from the time of the baal shem tov,
and in those times there were many debates, read the debate in minsks etc,
and to yserbius – im not in denial its just we in chebad dont need to answer our minhagim taught to us by קדושי עליון, we couldnt care less what others have to say. (its only we try to spread the light of chassidus cuz we love every jew) – although i cant understand why anyone would try to hide the rebbes amazing teaching which besides from the intellectual aspect of it, they also give one a chayos in yiddishkiet like nothing else – טעמו וראו כי טוב הוי’ פארזוכט וועט איר זעהן אז דער אויבערשטער איז גוט. (taste chassidus and you’ll see how good hashem and yiddishkiet is)Actual Misnagdim, like the Gaon, etc.. Had no problem with rebbes preparing for davening. Their issue was with the zmanim, but that’s not relevant to this discussion.
My issue wasn’t with preparing for davening; my issue is that i don’t believe the shu”a harav’s heter would allow someone to eat in order to do something that’s additional. די לך בחידושו.
Neo chabad again paints a narrative that if you’re against any of their 20th century ideas, like putting tefilin on people who don’t know aleph bais in the street with pritzus, or teaching them “kabalah”, or worse, believing that a rebbe is god in a body…. Then you’re just a misnaged!
I’m not a misnaged. I learn chasidus, but i don’t make a new religion out of it. Do you ever wonder why other groups of chasidim don’t either? Why do you think millions of chasidishe communities learn only small amounts of chasidus, when they’re older?
And why are their tznius standards so much better? Give a look outside your 4 Amos. It’s a big world out there.
Also, please acknowledge that you misrepresented the igeres of the heiligeh baal hatanya; or rather, your “mashpia” did, or his did, or someone.
Also, the term “admor hazakein” was coined by… Guess who? Wasn’t the tzemach tzedek or the rashab!
I just can’t get over how learning tanya – something hundreds of thousands of non Lubavitch chasidim do – is being compared by some chabadskers to learning chumash without chazal…
I guess when you decide to put tanya together with chumash in a sefer(with tehillim)… you’re going to….end up thinking that chumash and tanya are on a similar level, aren’t you?
Maybe they shouldn’t have published them together in such a misleading format?
Oh…rav shach already decried that 50 years ago. He was spot on; look what it has led to.
@sechel83 Satmar does everything in their power to promote “Divrei Yoel” and “VaYoel Moshe” all over the place. However, they do not dedicate regular sedarim in Yeshiva to teach it, pasken halacha based off of the Rebbe’s speeches, nor make it a priority to memorize entire swaths of it.
I’m not “hiding the Rebbes amazing teachings”, I’m criticizing the undue amount of importance that Chabad puts on every word ever spoken or written by Rav Schneerson ZT”L. It’s Kodesh, but not that kodesh. There are many things he may have said that he changed his mind on, or that he was mistaken about at the time. Not to mention the changes in society and audience that make the words obsolete or irrelevant. You can’t base a Yiddishe lifestyle on things a single Tzaddik said decades ago!
The reason I mention it is that you want to prove to us that Chabad minhagim about certain mitzvos are justified because of things the late Rebbe of Lubavitch once said. However, that’s not good enough for us because of the circular logic.
The Lubavitch minhag is to treat Rav Schneerson’s writings and speeches as the be-all and end-all of Torah. So they interpret many of these writings and speeches to follow certain minhagim. And then justify those minhagim by referencing the writings and speeches. Circular.
Avira…, delude yourself not. The Chassidim do not dwell in sukkos on Shmini Atzeres because the Besht said it is a bigger tikkun to dwell outside of the sukkah on that day. Irrespective of post-factum faulty pshatim.
Avirah, you do not need to know aleph-beis to put on teffilin. “Karkafta” which never wore teffilin is very,very serious. This ta’anah is already just picking on Chabad.
Mdd, the poskim are clear that one who is not aware of the existence of a mitzvah or who denies its origin as a commandment from Hashem has accomplished nothing; his brochos are levatalah, his actions are maysoh kof b’alma..
That’s what i meant by “not knowing aleph bais” – not literal aleph vais, im talking about people who are not aware of or who do not believe in the Mitzvah of tefilin. They are accomplishing nothing and their status of karkafta delo manach – if they’re included… they’re tinokos shenishbu – is unchanged.
I don’t think it is a problem that Chabad is learning seforim of their Rebbe seriously. A response that sure many gedolim wrote something and this is light reading is strange. Obviously, leaders of our time address issues relevant to our time and it is worth studying in depth. Previous Torah is of course important and we can’t just red recent responsa without learning earlier material, but we are not resolving last centuries’ issues, but the current ones!
So, a possible problem arises when someone insists that everyone should learn their derech in a significant way, otherwise, why can’t they learn their own Rebbe and share that Torah with us?
“Anti mishechistim eating shoelaces, trying to be mekushar, in all the wrong places”
mdd: The shitta of some to not to eat in a Sukka on Shmini Atzeres, predates the existence of Chasidus.
Avirah, real apikorsim probably will not agree to put on tefillin.
Ujm, some far-off das-yochid type of shittos that the S.A. and the Poskim do not follow. And, AGAIN — THEY DO NOT CARE FOR THE HALOCHIC HETER. IT is not like they suddenly ruled like those far-off opinions. They do it for the reason I stated.
Mdd, the qualifier isn’t being an apikores; if someone is not aware of a commandment, or a Commander, or that the Commander gave that commandment, then he’s not doing anything.
The average frei person never heard of tefillin, and definitely doesn’t think that Hashem commanded him to do so.
Maybe this would apply to some sefardim, but chabad just asks people if they’re Jewish and plops it on them, in full view of pritzus sometimes, which is shelo k’din.
@Always_Ask_Question In my personal opinion, the issue as I see it is that in many instances Chabad attaches almost as much importance on every word Rav Schneerson ZT”L said as if it were Chazal. There’s something very special about learning the writings of gedolim in depth, especially if he was your gadol (i.e. Satmar and “Divrei Yoel”).
There is a huge difference between something a gadol wrote in a sefer, and something that was in a letter or speech. Something in a sefer is meant for everyone and it’s expected that the gadol did due diligence to make sure that what was written is either applicable to the Doros, or has caveats about when it does apply. However, speeches and letters are all about specific audiences and to take those speeches and treat them as halacha applicable l’oilom vo’ed is not a proper mehalech. What worked in the Shtetl doesn’t work in the USA. What worked for Russian immigrants in 1970 doesn’t work for Israeli Yeshiva bachurim in 2023.
Dear Avira,
Making a new religion seems to be your strong point. How easy do you think it is to keep Judaism perfectly authentic?
The learning of only Chabad seforim isn’t the only thing. I’ve been at Chabad bar mitzvahs and weddings. They make a whole ordeal out of reading the Rebbe’s letter! For those who don’t know, the Rebbe had a standard letter that he wrote wishing a mazal tov on a simcha. At Chabad smachot, as part of the ceremony, they ask everyone to rise, and then they read the letter. I was at a bar mitzvah once, at a table with non-Chabad neighbors of the family. Most of us did not stand, and the MC (it wasn’t the father of the bar mitzvah boy) got upset at us and called out our table publicly for not standing.
I though the whole thing was bizarre.yes, learning chassidus and davening is extremely important, this is the way to come to love and fear hashem, achdus hashem according to shitas habaal shem tov.
the rambam starts off mishnah torah with יסוד היסודות ועמוד החכמות לידע……
and yes the rebbe’s teachings are for us just as important as חז”ל. im sorry you dont recognize the greatness of the rebbe and all the chabad rabaim (there were also other non chabad great tzadikim) who saw g-dliness,
litvaks dont understand what chassidus is, one point:
the chabad rabaim said the chassidus to explain g-dliness to us low people who dont see g-dliness, they themselves saw these things like the arizal, the baal shem tov.
just learn chassidus (not like a chassidishe sefer – whatever that means- chassidus you need to learn till you have a burning love for hashem, and you start seeing the g-dliness in everything in the world) and youll see this is true.i havo issue saying that i misinterpreted the kuntres acharon,
the problem is that you need to read past the first line, (if you can’t understand past there, then either 1) learn more chassidus till you understand, or 2) dont say opinions on something you dont know
in chassidus this is a big sugya whats higher and whats the kavana, etzem, giluyim etc. mentions it in tanya many times, learn hemshech 5666 – around 1000 (yes one thousend) pages and come back.
btw a quote from the kuntres acharon:
אלא שידיעת המציאות מההשתלשלות, היא גם כן מצוה רמה ונשאה, ואדרבה – עולה על כולנה, כמו שכתוב: ״וידעת היום כו׳״, ״דע את אלקי אביך כו׳״, ומביאה ל״לב שלם״ כו׳, שהוא העיקר, והשגת המציאות הוא להפשיט מגשמיות כוsechel, can you please show me a source from anyone before the Baal Shem Tov who says anything about chassidus as the Besht understood it? Anything about davening and chassidus being the best way to come to love and fear Hashem?
Sechel…now we’re just quoting random lines from other kuntres acharon?
I’m not even going to look up the context this time, because this conversation has veered so off rhe rails that it just isn’t worth debunking another claim.
First you said to look at kuntres acharon. I did. Your claims didn’t hold up there at all.
Then you said to look at igros. I did. Again, you misrepresented.
So why should anyone trust you a 3rd time? You are claiming something and dancing around various mareh mekomos from your mashpia or from google searches – I’m not going to play this game anymore. Neither am i going to play the game of me being instantly wrong because I’m not Lubavitch, and that only people who sit and spend their whole day learning things that they don’t understand “really” know what’s going on
Please. This whole exchange has been misquotes and appeals to authority, the way college kids say that you’re not qualified to have an opinion on a political issue if you’re not a professor.
This is the result of insecurity and knowing deep down that you’re wrong.
@sechel83 If you attribute the same chashivos to a posthumous transcription of a gadol’s speech that you do to Chazal, then I’m sorry we are even having this conversation. That is so far out of bounds for what Yiddishkeit is and is supposed to be.
1) that’s exactly my point, for us in chabad we believe in our rabbaim, they are the אתפשטותא דמשה of the generation, neshama of atzilus or שמיטא הראשונה – this idea is explained in דרך מצותיך, bikitzur in perek 2 tanya, maamer באתי לגני תשכג. look also in לקו”ש חלק ד פרשת דברים. (some sources to start).
apparently litvaks are against this whole idea of a rebbe, so why are you even criticizing us 1) you think you are the police men of the world? 2) some of you try to prove from tanya that we are wrong, thanks, go fly a kite, if you’re good at learning gemara, do that, don’t explain to us what it says in our chassidus, and what our rabbaim mean,
(disclaimer: you should learn chassidus with an open mind, because it will reveal deeper levels of your neshama eventually)These long Chabad posts bore me.
I just follow along the anti Chabad for the issues.Are we now insinuating that the Besht reinvented davening?
I could find some earlier sources.
Sechel 83, Litvaks aren’t against the idea of having a Rebbi, they argue against what the function of having a Rebbi is and even what it means to connect with hashem, litvaks or at least briskers, which is where my rebbis mesorah in hashgofo and learning comes from was incredibly close to his rebbi, Rav Aharon Soloveitchik zatsal. He explained to me that a Rebbi is to give over to the talmid his hashgofo and derech halimud exactly, that’s all. We don’t connect to Hashem through a rebbi by connecting to a rebbi, we do by using the tools our rebbeim give us. The idea of following a rebbi isn’t chassidish, and the only reason chassidish rebbeim our passed down through a dynasty is because that was how the rabbinate often worked in a shtetl.
In fact, lubavitch doesn’t have a rebbe
Avira > chabad just asks people if they’re Jewish and plops it on them,
So, if you feel you can help here, stand nearby and interrogate these potential yidden to help the busy shluchim? It could be a conveyer –
one chabadnik asks “excuse me, are you Jewish”? yes go to the right, no goes to the left
Avira stands on the right, asks them about their grandmother, checks out answers on his laptop, passes them further to the right to the 2nd and 3rd chabadnikim who put shel rosh veshel yad at the same time.YS > However, speeches and letters are all about specific audiences and to take those speeches and treat them as halacha applicable l’oilom vo’ed is not a proper mehalech. What worked in the Shtetl doesn’t work in the USA. What worked for Russian immigrants in 1970 doesn’t work for Israeli Yeshiva bachurim in 2023.
This is an interesting point. Indeed, we historically have this balance between written and oral sources. There is a lot of Gemora built from maase Rav and it is an appropriate way to learn halakha, better than the books. Obviously, the Teacher should be someone who values what he does and says. You seem to imply that we are “better than that” now – when we have books and searchable databases … I do not fully agree. And a lot of uniformization, black-ha(ugh)tiness, and loss of minhagim are due to peple abandoning their local teachers.
So, chabad, like everyone else, have a right to follow on their teacher. Now, the way they do it is sometimes bizarre, and also now the generation who did not see him in person.. ok, so they hear stories from their parents …
sechel > just learn chassidus
why don’t you also learn Divrei Yoel, R Salanter, R Hirsh, R Soloveichik, and then intelligently discuss how they relate to your chassidus so that we all could appreciate it?
So has anyone come to any conclusion from this fruitful discussion?
Lostspark: absolutely! I’ve come to the conclusion that sechel is woefully misguided, and doesn’t understand what he reads. Whether this is his fault or his teachers’ fault, I don’t know.
@Always_Ask_Questions You make a good point, however this is one thing you are neglecting from it. Having an oral tradition (Torah sh’Ba’al Peh) means having a Rebbi. We cannot just read books (no matter how holy) and have that be our Rebbi, we need a person who is dynamic and understands his talmid and the world.
@sechel83 That is how Chabad chooses to interpret that particular aspect of Chassidus. You should be aware that the rest of the frum world does not. We view Acharonim as Torah that is highly susceptible and open to machlokes from any other Acharon. Divrei halacha and hashkafa especially, since they are are often extremely subjective. I have two very misnagdish examples I can give you from personal experience with the Yekkish community (but this exist in every frum community except Chabad).- The translators of Rav Hirsch ZT”L’s works had to make a lot of decisions as to what would be published and what wouldn’t. The decided to all but ignore anything that wasn’t openly published by him (i.e. they left out letters and speech transcripts). Furthermore, they acknowledged that his views changed over his lifetime, and even his core philosophy of “Talmud Torah im Derech Eretz” differed from how he wrote about it in his 20s to how he wrote about it in his 50s. This affected which works they chose to translate.
- A while back, a woman found a stash of letters by her great-grandfather, Rav Eliezer Lipman Philip Prinz ZT”L, a Rav from Antwerp. They were all in Dutch, so she brought them to a relative to translate. The relative said that most of the letters, unfortunately, would have to be omitted since they were paskening halacha and there’s no way to know what the case was and whether it would still apply. One example was that he allowed people to open sidewalk umbrellas on Shabbos (I think the heter had to do with the construction of the umbrella and way in which it was opened, along with the fact that most of the community would still be mechalel Shabbos if he never gave a heter) which would either cause people to falsely think that umbrellas are muttar, or brand him a heretic.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“black-ha(ugh)tiness”
Kol haposel, b’mumo posel
MT, that’s not a complete picture of the litvishe mesorah of a rebbe/talmid relationship. Rav boruch ber would consult with rav chaim on dvery decision he made. The nefesh hachaim consulted the gaon about building volozhin. Rav boruch ber would even get rav chaims haskama on every nigun he wrote..
A rebbe is forever; as the mesilas yeshorim writes, he is like someone overseeing a hedge maze. He knows where you should go, left and right. He’s supposed to guide you in avodas Hashem and how to grow. It’s a lot more than tesching hashkofa and derech halimud and then dropping you (if im understanding what you’re quoting correctly)Some chasidim take it further, with the idea of hiskashrus.
Litvishe mostly do not subscribe to that idea, but even by chasidim, it’s not a memutzah issue; more of like ridding on the shoulders of giants.
Lake – cute.
Which other chasidusen believed their rebbe to be moshiach?
A small group of breslover chasidim thought that rav nachman was moshiach, but it was short lived and nobody thought that after he was niftar.
The rizhiner may have been considered his generations candidate for moshiach, but again, no one thought he was after his petirah.
The only people who believed in a posthumous moshiach were the shabsai tzvi fanatics.
Yserb, the way you describe the process in publishing Rav Hirschs writings is not altogether accurate. In “collected writings,” there is a controversial essay about chazal and science, which was not written in Rav Hirschs handwriting , was found in his study, and was included, because someone on the team said it “must” have been written by him, despite its being considered heresy according to rishonim and achronim across the board.
So maybe they usually were careful, but there were definitely cases of mistakes.
@lakwhut No, a Rebbe is not forever. A Rebbe goes to the Oilom HaEmes just like all of us. That’s when he leaves his duties to his son or talmid.
Yserbius, no, a Rebbe does not leave his responsibilities to someone else. It says “Aseh L’CHA Rav”, choose one for yourself, not that the Rebbe is chosen for you.
A Rebbe is who he is because people choose to follow him. If people choose to follow his son, that’s their decision. In the early days of chassidus, most Rebbes did not have their sons take over. It’s only become an issue more recently, when chassidic groups control vast amounts of money, that the sons would insist on taking over.
Even R’ Yoilish didn’t want to become Rebbe at first, but people insisted he do so.Dear Yserbius,
Where did you get the idea that Rav Hirsch’s views changed throughout his life? He is more consistent than most. The Letters (His first publication.) are talking throughout all his later works.
Dear Avira,
I’m not following the topic here. But the Ramchal would absolutely protest you conflating the parable of the hedge maze with the idea of a Rebbe.
Yserb > We cannot just read books (no matter how holy) and have that be our Rebbi, we need a person who is dynamic and understands his talmid and the world.
Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to express, thanks for clarifying it. I am comparing a written approach (there is a nice greek word for that that I misremember) and oral, with latter being passed through the people.
It is not automatic to have one teacher. R Meir had two (or three) teachers. He tried out w R Akiva first, did not hap it, went to R Yishmael, and then went back to R Akiva. But these two illustrious teachers were not enough – he would also run after Acher’s horse on Shabbos. And then he married Talmida Chachama, and learned from her also.
AAQ>> “BLACK-HA(UGH)TINESS”
Avram > <vehemently disagrees>Ugh, I thought it was a good pun. If it does not apply to you, then it is not intended for you!
I am referring here to people changing their family/community mesorah based on some theories, however elevated. Why does a grandfather in a turban or in a beret need to endure his grandson in a hat just because the grandson won’t find a shidduch otherwise?
here is a related mesorah: R Naftali Amsterdam, who actually had a smicha, was dressing so lowly that his wife complained to his teacher, r Salanter and the Rav paskened that while preventing haughtiness is definitely a good middah, but doing what a wife wants is chesed that overrides working on your middos, so he somewhat upgraded his dress code.
When R Amsterdam (who, I think, never was in Amsterdam) arrived to EY unannounced to prevent excitement and went to the house of his chaver R Itzele Peterburger (who taki was a Rav in that city while on vacation from his humbleness), the neighbors said – Hello Rabbo, to which he replied – I am not a Rabbi.
Now, my question is: why did they know he is a Rabbi if he was not dressed in a black hat?
DaMoshe, can you please show me a source from anyone before the Rav Yisroel Salanter ztl who says anything about Mussar as Rav Yisroel Salanter explained it?
DaMoshe, it is a halacha that a Rov’s son gets priority over everyone else in taking over his deceased father’s rabbinical position. I’ve cited the Halachic sources on this forum in the past. It has nothing to do with Chasidim.
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