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@RSo. “and the Rambam, in Peirush Hamishnayos (Sanhedrin 10:1), writes that whoever says Mashiach will not be a descendent of Shlomo is “kofer BaShem uvedivrei neviav””
I dont wanna argue with haRambam or even Chazal (where it says from Zerubavel – not like Yermiyahu’s curse), but the Gemara says Bferush that Rebbi Yehuda Hanasi could have been Moshiach, and also says Bferush that He was a descendant of Shefatiah ben Avital (Avital was one of David’s wives).
So, no, He does NOT have to be from ShlomoDear Neville,
I assume the same. And I never did the full generational research. So, it could be I’m wrong.
Rav Soleveitchik himself was a personal friend and supporter of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. I have been attending a Chabad Shul for many years and I have never seen any Chabadnick personally say that the 7th Rebbe would come back to life and be Mashiach. Even the Lubavitcher Rebbe himself denounced such claims. Chabad does not believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Machiach. This is a common misconception about Chabad.
“I assume the same. And I never did the full generational research. So, it could be I’m wrong.”
Nor have I, but just from knowing people that have done a lot of work into researching family trees, limiting to ben achar ben would severely shrink the amount of people with yichis to a specific person. If you allow a mix of matrilineal and patrilineal, then every single human is “related” to someone famous within the last 2-3000 years. That’s why so many people claim Rashi yichis. They’re probably right; it just isn’t actually that big of a deal.“Lots of gedolim said he wasn’t big in learning, including the Brisker rov”
The Brisker rav passed away 9 years into the Rebbe’s leadership, before the vast majority of the Rebbe’s talks were delivered and published.
Also, I’m not aware of anything negative the Brisker Rav – or any other gadol for that matter – had to say about the Rebbe’s Torah learning. Would you share with me, perhaps, what was said, by whom, and what source there might be for such claims. Who knows, perhaps you can also change my mind as to whether the Rebbe was a Talmid Chacham……
Avira,
The vast majority of Likkutei Sichos has got nothing to do with chassidus, or “Chassidishe Torah” as you call it. The Rebbe’s drashos spanned all chelkei hatorah of Parde”s unlike most other Gedolim who specialized solely in Derush. If your’e looking for a lomdishe sicha from the Rebbe, look no further than this week’s parshah, Likkutei Sichos vol 38 p. 26 (second sicha for naso). You can’t judge till you’ve been there……@n0mesorah
You assume the answer to weather we should rebuild the Mikdash if we could is a resounding NO?
about 100 years ago, there were Jews in America who thought that we shouldn’t be keeping shabbos nowadays even if it could be possible.
How can you CANCEL 50% of the Torah, just because?????
If we are Anus (hands tied), ok. But stam????Don’t keep shabbos cuz it’s a chillul hashem
Why not get all the whining out and cover all the multitude of complaints against ChaBaD minhagim.
Let’s make a list:
All Lubavitchers are meshicists
ChaBaD shecitah is problematic
Why do the boys wear Rabbeinu Tam Tefillin?
ChaBaD safrus is bedieved at best
Why is there a disregard for zemanim
Sheitels aren’t tznius
Why hold by no gebracts during Pesach
ChaBaD mesivtahs aren’t up to par in lamdus
ChaBaD smicha doesn’t mean anythingIt’s has all been said, and honestly you all sound like a broken record. If bashing ChaBaD makes you feel better about yourself, I feel sorry for you. I would never disrespect Rav Soloveitchik the way the Rebbe was disparaged on this forum shame on you.
N0m,
Either you are a Lubavicher who has been inculcated with all their fraudulent claims, or you are just being very naive. Saying that practically every Jew in Europe (Why Europe davka? Don’t know.) is descended from Dovid Hamelech may be correct, but that doesn’t make someone qualify as DEFINITELY descended, which is a pre-requisite for Mashiach.
As to the claim that he was “unique in his vast knowledge” and that “the bnei yeshiva of today considered him the biggest lamdan among all the Rebbes” – do you have a basis for that other than hearsay? Have you ever heard of the Klausenberger Rebbe zt”l who would darshen in lomdus for hours at a time? And the Satmarer and Vizhnitzer Rebbes zt”l? That is to name just a few.
There are and were a lot of Chassidishe Rebbes who were HUGE talmidei chachomim, but who didn’t spend time displaying it. It often came to light only when circumstances forced them to reveal it.
And as I have pointed out in the past on earlier threads, the “geonus” of the Lubavicher rebbe was often clearly faulty and seen as such by the same bnei yeshiva you mention. Two examples, his sevara for not sleeping in a sukkah, and the need to convince goyim to keep 7 mitzvos.
@lostspark
So coming from a Chabadsker, you actually haven’t named most of the major issues people have with Chabad, and which [geniuses – lashon sagi na’or] like you can’t ever seem to explain even according to the Rebbe’s own lamdus, constantly citing shallow understandings of sichos and jabbering about childishly about how the Rebbe is the greatest and therefore… even your engagement in such shallow discussions (on your part – the rest of the community here have legitimate questions and complaints) is completely hefech everything the entirety of the Chassidic movement (and thus Chabad as well) stands for, and in particular the Rebbe’s derech…since when do we engage in nonsensical petty arguments and debates?Some of the more major questions aimed at the Chabad derech are:
Not sleeping in a Sukkah, which is seemingly a chiyuv d’Oraisa
Eating before davening, which every other Yid on the planet who grows up in a religious home, is taught is not allowed kepashut
Not eating seuda Shlishis, which every other Yid on the planet is machmir on, nearly every shul provides it except Chabad etc…
The ubiquitous (albeit not majority) notion that the Rebbe, who has been buried at the Ohel (deny it all you want – you will only make yourself unworthy of any intelligent response) will come back and be Mashiach…For the most part the other taanos are just silly and unworthy of discussion. Like the notion that Chabad don’t learn Gemara and so on…the amount of people I can name amongst Chabad Chassidim who know entire masechtos beal peh, bkiyus in rishonim, achronim, some friends who have encyclopedic knowledge of Shu”A, including several poskim of the previous generation…. Other taanos follow suit in their silliness, and it is only thanks to mindless yapping children such as you (as well as CS/chabad”shlucha” [though what exactly is the “shlichus” of bickering nonsense about the Rebbe and Chabad which the Rebbe himself did not stand for] and others), that the taanos as silly as they may be, are apparently validated for the eyes of the internet browsing world….
Chabad does have Seudas Shlishit in their shuls. Not eating before davening is minhag, not Halacha. The Rambam holds that if one is hungry and can’t concentrate on prayer they should eat before they daven. Chabad does learn Gemara. The Lubavitcher Rebbe encouraged men and women to learn Gemara. According Sukkah 25b to Sleeping in the Sukkah is not required if it makes one uncomfortable. Chabad does not believe the Rebbe would come back to life as Machiach. The Rebbe was against people who made such claims.
There are plenty of Chabadniks who do believe the Rebbe will come back as Mashiach. Look at the quote I posted earlier, from the Rosh Yeshiva of the Chabad Yeshiva in Cincinnati. Here it is again:
“The constant focus that this concealment is temporary and that at any moment the Rebbe will return and take us out of Galus. This is the greatest source of optimism, excitement and connection. This is the ultimate driving force in the Hiskashrus of a Chassid today. It also creates the true feeling of accountability to the Rebbe, which is so vital and important for every chassid.
…
Iyh we will be reunited with the Rebbe, Vehu Yigaleinu, and there will be no need to have this discussion!”The article is titled “OUR POST GIMMEL TAMMUZ BOCHURIM NEED A REALITY CHECK”, by Rabbi Gershon Avtzon. You can look it up.
These three are all halacha.
But being lenient is not unique to Chabad. It was common practice in parts of White Russia. These three could be found among the Yeshivaliet from Prewar Europe as well.
Dear RSo,
Ben acher ben is my assumption. Could be it’s wrong. That he is ben acher ben was a guess. Also, could be wrong. Just for fun, I advocate that he is qualified until you prove otherwise.
I have heard personally about his lomdus from old Lakewooders that went to him.
I never heard them mention a Viznitz Rebbe. Who do you mean, Reb Mordechai rom Monsey? He was much younger almost the same age as the American Talmidim. The rest were in EY. As to the other two Great Rebbes I explicitly heard they only went to them for reasons unrelated to the Limud Hatorah aspect. In the old days the Yeshivishe Velt was able to compartmentalize their attitudes toward other yidden. Nobody was black and white to them.
Dear Da,
If you ask him who the Rebbe is and he responds the Melech Hamashiach, then you should be wise enough to understand that he doesn’t believe any different from us.
Dear 125,
We haven’t been waiting thousands of years for a geulah that is only a mere halachic fulfillment. Everything will be exactly how it should be. Not merely by halachic standards.
Without the aggados it is impossible to know what we are waiting for.
But I’m definitely waiting. You?
Dear Lost,
I didn’t get a flag at one of their parades. They have a bad selection of hard drinks. Please start your list with the important stuff.
It bothers me when Chanadniks try and justify their Minhagim to the Litvish world. I think they should be firm in their customs and not worry what other communities think. No one ever makes a big stink when certain communities daven Shachris on Shabbos at 11am because their rebbe is “beyond time”.
“Chabad does have Seudas Shlishit in their shuls.”
Full blown lie. I talked to a Chabad rabbi who said the the overarching organization doesn’t even allow an individual Chabad house to do it even if they wanted to for their non-Chabad members. Their reasons probably being that Chabad minhagim would be lost in their shuls if they started compromising for everyone else.“Not eating before davening is minhag, not Halacha.”
Also a lie, or maybe just ignorance. It’s an issur d’rabbonim brought in the Shulchan Aruch. Nobody has ever paskened otherwise. Chabad simply ignores this halacha without justification other than saying it’s their minhag.“The Rebbe was against people who made such claims.”
Source?I was in one chabad huge shul where they had a whole library of sichos and books all about the Rebbe Shlita and one set of Shulchan Aruch Harav hidden away. A bunch of Rambams in many languages and one old never used set of shas on bottom shelf covered in dust.
Its as if torah shel baal pe has been taken over by the Rebbe,s sichos and nothing else exists . BH they spared the Rambam from the dustbin.125 st: “…but the Gemara says Bferush that Rebbi Yehuda Hanasi could have been Moshiach, and also says Bferush that He was a descendant of Shefatiah ben Avital (Avital was one of David’s wives).
So, no, He does NOT have to be from Shlomo”Let’s disregard for a moment the fact that there are two explanations in Rashi as to what the gemoro means, and according to the second explanation, it is not saying that Rebbi Yehuda Hanasi could be Mashiach. Thus the gemoro is certainly not saying “Bferush” that he could have been Moshiach. Let’s disregard that for the moment because I have a much bigger problem with what you wrote.
Are you trying to tell us that the Rambam, who “Bferush” writes that Mashiach kas to be descended from Shlomo must be wrong because YOU understand a gemoro – and, by the way, it is one opinion of many in the gemoro – differently to him?! Clearly, it seems from what you write, the Rambam had either never seen that gemoro, or he was simply mistaken. While YOU know better!
What a chutzpah! But unfortunately this is far from the only case where Lubavichers (un)intentionally misinterpret Chazal and Rishonim in order to “prove” their point.
And that is why I put a challenge out there the other day to show me clearly how the Lubavicher rebbe fits even one of the criteria of Mashiach as delineated by the Rambam. This is where they come up with the weirdest and umost nacceptable misinterpretations of the Rambam’s words.
Cat, not eating before davening is an asmachta, one level below deoraysoh; the gemara says it’s based on lo sochlu al hadam, do not eat blood, which chazal darshen “do not eat before you pray for your blood”
The rambam makes zero mention of kavanah as a heter to eat before davening. The shulchan aruch harav introduces it, and of course his opinion is valid, but he does not say you could have a whole meal and eat whatever you want. Many chasidim are meikil on this to an extent, where they’ll have a small piece of cake or something…not more than a kebayah.
Chabad considering this a “minhag” is just ignorance, further proof thereof. But I’m sure you can rattle off at least a hundred sichos about elevated concepts that have basically nothing to do with your daily avodah.
As far as i know, the Lubavitcher rebbe encouraged women to learn all sorts of stuff, but stopped at gemara, because it’s against an open halacha in shu”a, that it is unequivocally forbidden to teach women gemara.
Do you learn gemara because the Lubavitcher rebbe said to learn it?
Catlover 613: “Chabad does have Seudas Shlishit in their shuls.”
Lubavicher chassidim DO NOT wash for Shalosh Seudos, and I was told by a mashpia in one of their yeshivos that to eat Shalosh Seudos “is a kula al pi chassidus”. And that is a quote.
“Not eating before davening is minhag, not Halacha.”
??? Are you, perhaps, a member of the Aseres Hashevatim? See Rambam Hilchos Tefilla 6:4 and Shulchan Aruch O”C 89:3.“The Rambam holds that if one is hungry and can’t concentrate on prayer they should eat before they daven.”
And that is why ALL Lubavichers are taught that they should eat cake before Shachris, right?
“The Lubavitcher Rebbe encouraged men and women to learn Gemara.”
The “and women” is in itself problematic.
“According Sukkah 25b to Sleeping in the Sukkah is not required if it makes one uncomfortable.”
100% true. However, it does not exempt someone who is upset by the fact that he is ABLE to fall asleep in the sukkah! And that was the crux of the Lubavicher rebbe’s reasoning for not sleeping in the sukkah.
“Chabad does not believe the Rebbe would come back to life as Machiach.”
Which part of Chabad? Or are you referring to those who say he does not have to come back to life because he did not die?
“The Rebbe was against people who made such claims.”
Can you quote a primary source for that? I remember that when he died the Lubavichers in my area were distributing a copy of his handwritten emendation to a sicha in which he crossed out the phrase or word that said that Mashiach has to be someone who is alive.
The fact is you can go into many large chabad centers/shuls and barely find a full set of shas. Somtimes an old disregarded old print Choson Shas someone gave away due to lack of interest. Rav Elya Svei Zatztal lamented about this 20 plus years ago in a drosho in Lakewood when being maspid Rav Aaaron Zatzal. Its a fact. Go check yourself. I’v seen it and you can too.
“I would never disrespect Rav Soloveitchik the way the Rebbe was disparaged on this forum shame on you.“
Lostspark
What about Rav Shach
I’ve seen Lubavitchers stick their middle finger when his name was said
You will never find an Avi Ezri in any Lubavitcher homeI wonder why
“I would never disrespect Rav Soloveitchik the way the Rebbe was disparaged on this forum shame on you.“
From the sound of it you are referring to Rav JB Soloveitchik, while the Brisker Soloveitchik Rav Yitzchak Zev is the one that was referred to in earlier posts.
The former was a much more “moderate” member of the family, and was the Torah leader of Mizrachi in the US (I may have that detail slightly wrong, so please correct me if I do). He was (apparently) on good terms with the Lubavicher rebbe, so why on earth would you even want to disparage him?
The latter was one of the outstanding Litvishe Chareidi leaders in E”Y, and he was very much anti-Lubavich. That is someone who few Lubavichers would be careful not to disparage.
It should be noted that the stereotypical the-entire-world-should-be-just-like-Chabad-there-is-a-great-answer-for-everything-because-the-Rebbe-was-so-great is a minority in Chabad. A lot of this thread is sure projection.
You are saying more about yourself as a real human, than anything else.
What about Rav Shach
And R’ Aharon.
N0m: “It should be noted that the stereotypical the-entire-world-should-be-just-like-Chabad-there-is-a-great-answer-for-everything-because-the-Rebbe-was-so-great is a minority in Chabad.”
Who on earth are you kidding? I have close Lubavicher relatives, have worked together many with Lubavichers, have davened in their shuls and Chabad houses (even in 770 on rare occasions) traveled widely and come in contact with literally thousands of Lubavichers in my time, and I am yet to find EVEN ONE who does not have that attitude.
Either you know nothing at all about Chabad, or the truth means nothing to you.
I can see if someone davens at 10a AND slowly with kavana – that he would need a piece of cake before that. I saw a quote fomr Kotzker who answered his student, a grandson of R Akiva Eger, how to justify the practice to his zeide: Rambam says that if you hire someone to axe your logs and he spends most of the day sharpening the axe and only then using it – he is paid for the whole day. Maynr Kotzker to Rambam specifically due to the kashya of the Rambam above? Anyway, people who don’t get a profession before getting married live in glass houses (if they can afford them) and should not be quoting Rambam they disregard. <Ducking>
“It should be noted that the stereotypical the-entire-world-should-be-just-like-Chabad-there-is-a-great-answer-for-everything-because-the-Rebbe-was-so-great is a minority in Chabad.”
Are you kidding? This is the standard shittah of Chabad. It is the primary focus of their being. It’s beyond just the majority; I don’t think there is a single Lubavitcher on the planet who does not think this way.
It used to bother me, now I can just kind of laugh it off as silliness, but to close your eyes and pretend not to notice it is absurd.
“It bothers me when Chanadniks try and justify their Minhagim to the Litvish world. I think they should be firm in their customs and not worry what other communities think.”
The problem is that this would require them to think are mesoras are equally valid, which they don’t. They aren’t trying to “justify” their minhagim, they are trying to prove their supremacy.“No one ever makes a big stink when certain communities daven Shachris on Shabbos at 11am because their rebbe is “beyond time”.”
Sure we do. It might not be as noticeable to you since those communities aren’t also on the mission to convert the universe to their way.Always_ask-Questions: “I can see if someone davens at 10a AND slowly with kavana – that he would need a piece of cake before that. I saw a quote fomr Kotzker who answered his student, a grandson of R Akiva Eger, how to justify the practice to his zeide: Rambam says that…”
I have seen that story in the sefer Emes Ve’emunah, but it had nothing to do with eating before davening. It had to do with davening late.
In fact, and I think it also says this in the above sefer, Kotzker chassidim did not eat at all before Shachris, which is why even when they davened very late they would make sure to finish before shkiah and then eat something so that they wouldn’t have the feeling that they did something good by fasting all day.
RSo, that is why Kotzker chasidus is not so popular in our times! That, and the preference for emes before sholom.
I would even say that fasting on shabbos till midday is more questionable than eating a cholov isroel cake.
The vast majority of Chabad are not meshechists. The ones with the yellow flags with the corns are a minority and do not represent the organization. These people misrepresent the core values of Chabad. The following is a statement form the central Chabad Headquarters:
“Belief in the coming of Moshiach and awaiting his imminent arrival is a basic tenet of the Jewish faith. It is clear, however, that conjecture as to the possible identity of Moshiach is not part of the basic tenet of Judaism. The preoccupation with identifying the Rebbe (zatza”l) as Moshiach is clearly contrary to the Rebbe’s wishes. Together with the whole of Klal Yisrael we pray for the fulfillment of our collective yearning for Moshiach, in the spirit of the timeless Jewish declaration: “I await his (Moshiach’s) coming each and every day”
edited
before criticizing other jews beliefs, first learn about moshiach, i know its not a “lomdishe” perek but you can learn perek חלק in סנהדרין before claiming that people have recital (or worse) beliefs when in facts its just following the gemarah.
if your derech is only to learn lomdos and the “yeshivish” mesechtas, good, so just stay out of discussing moshiach when you know nothing about it!!!“The vast majority of Chabad are not meshechists.”
All frum yidden know this isn’t true; I don’t know who you think you’re fooling.When we say “meshechist” we mean anyone who believes that when the moshiach comes, it’s going to be the Rebbe in some for or another. Chabad has internally narrowed the definition of “meshichist” so that many of them can claim not to be while still pretending they aren’t lying.
what about rav shach and rav aharon? torah says not to believe in more than one g-d!!!!
so if they are g-d ch”v, then you can only believe inn onecan someone please explain to me simply whats wrong to beleive that the rebbe is moshiach, or alive?
does it contradict a pusuk, mishnah, gemarah, medrash, zohar?
anyone?
or its just something people dont like? i dont like mustered so someone who likes mustered is a goy? chas vishalomSechel, look at the other threads – it goes against a lot of sources. Notably the rambams criteria for moshiach.
It’s second -coming Christianity nonsense that the rishonim fought wars against; i.e. ramban’s vikuach, the abarbanel, and others
avirah, sources? not “alot of sources” (no one can prove the rebbe wasnt from שלמה המלך, and even if not, just means that chabad can be mistaken, you cant hate them because of that. (its known (the יחוס is in the hakdama of the sefer היום יום) the baal hatanya was בן אחר בן from the מהר”ל who was בן אחר בן from שלמה המלך. but the צ”צ was a son of the daughter of the baal hatanya. and the rebbe is from the צמח צדק.so i dont know eaither way)
christianity nonsence? what that moshiach can be from the dead? what about the gemarah סנהדרין צח,ב
מן חייא הוא כגון רבינו הקדוש. אם משיח מאותן שחיים עכשיו ודאי היינו רבינו הקדוש דסובל תחלואים וחסיד גמור הוה כדאמרינן בבבא מציעא (דף פה.) ואם היה מאותן שמתו כבר היה דניאל איש חמודות שנדון ביסורין בגוב אריות וחסיד גמור היה והאי כגון לאו דווקא
just because christians beleive some thing dosent mean judaism hold the oppisite, alot of it (maybe most – i never studied it) comes from judaism, they believe in tanach also
rishonim? sources?
ןis the whole idea of moshiach and techias hamasim cancelled ch”v cuz christians believe it?oh the the rambam in hilchos melachim – so the misnadim say “how can you compare the rebbe’s learning to david hamelech?”
answer: so the rambam holds (according to these am haaratzim asking the question, (just to note why dosent the rambam mention tchiyas hamasim? klutz, learn the sugya properly!) moshiach needs to be alive, who today alive is a closer talmid chacham to david hamelech?
question: maybe a hidden tzadik?
answer: so if there is a hidden tzaddik somewhere, whats wrong with saying, that the rebbe knew much more torah than you think he knows and is in fact like david hamelech
basiclly these complaints are totally ridicules – coming up if every stupid reason why the rebbe cant be moshiach, and even if so- bacause of that to call chabad kofrim ch”v? if they are mistaken, good,
every person who makes a mistake is a kofer?!sechel, regarding the Gemara in Sanhedin, I believe Rashi explains that when it says “from the dead”, it doesn’t mean that Mashiach will be revived, it means that he already came.
In any case, if you’re going to use that Gemara, then it definitely isn’t the Rebbe – it’s Daniel!i know this is probably heresy, but if he didnt’ come during the Holocaust, what makes anyone think that he has a more valid reason to arrive now?? Weren’t those the days when we needed him most?
Sechel – part of how i convince people is to showcase how triggered and emotionally insecure chabadniks get when their religion is challenged.
The rishonim fought christian second-coming ideology tooth and nail. It’s not judaism.
Then again, it’s not the only thing chabad took from Christianity. The idea of a rebbe being god in a body is straight yushke stuff, that god walked among us in a physical form, etc…
If you look at that sefer al hatorah veal hatemurah( it’s on scribd for free) he compares the writings of Christian priests to the Lubavitcher rebbes words, and they’re eerily similar. Take a look; maybe don’t limit your yiddishkeit to one mortal man.
And maybe don’t do mitzvos to please the rebbe, but rather to please Hashem…who is incorporeal and has no division and who nothing is tofes.
Sechel:
Can you present a good argument with sources that Yoshke cannot be moshiach without that same argument also excluding the Rebbe?
Yechiel, we don’t need moshiach to save us from our travails. We need him to reveal Hashem in the world and end the bitter galus which has distanced us jews, his children, from Him. It has made us exposed to tumah, and has limited our avodah severely. We want moshiach for Hashem’s sake, not our own. That’s where you erred
“If you look at that sefer al hatorah veal hatemurah”
Do you mean Al HaGeulah v’al HaTemurah, by the Satmar Ruv?Avira,
Learning Likkutei Sichos from על התורה is like learning Avi Ezri from Yedaber Sholom
(the difference being that Yedaber Sholom is more lomdish with less attacking (nevertheless, the Rebbe forbade Rabbi Wolpo from printing another volume), and has haskamos from Rav Moshe Feinstein, the Gerrer Rebbe, Rav Grusman, Rav Weiss (Eida Hachareidis), Rav Ovadia Yosef, etc.)Additionally, על התורה is obviously extremely one-sided, perfect for people looking for clickbait to attack Chabad.
Anyone honest would (in addition to learning the Rebbe’s Sichos in the original) also read books that oppose the claims in Al Hatorah.
If you have an otzar hachachma, see הוגה בתורה which tears apart all the taanos brought in על התורה.
קבל את האמת ממי שאמרוDear Yechiel,
Your assuming that he will come due to a national need. I think that is incorrect.
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