Chabad hate on YWN?

Grey Matter,
I am unclear as to exactly what you are responding to in your last post. I don’t seem to have said anything further about the “question” that you raised.

Frankly, I’m actually not entirely sure what shaychus your question has to do with this thread in particular, unless you are suggesting that “virtually all gedolim” held that the Rebbe “went off” CH”V. If you’re not suggesting that, as I don’t believe you are, then maybe your question would be better posted on a separate thread dedicated specifically to that topic in which I would happily participate.

keraveltheint, thanks for the source in Zohar.

What it seems to be saying to me – and no, I don’t claim to be even a lower-level mekubal – is that when he’s alive a tzaddik is in this world, Olam Ha’asiyah, while after his passing and leaving this world (that’s what the Zohar seems to be saying “d’ispater mehai alma”) he is found in all of the [upper] three worlds.

Is that the way you understand it too?

Grey Matter: I have a different criterium than you: I think you should judge a leader by his results. So the Rambam, even though he was attacked, accomplished only good for klal Yisroel. The same by the baal shem tov. However, lehavdil, Moses Mendelson shr”y, although personally frum, destroyed much of klal yisroel. Same with Shabsai Tzvi.
The Lubavicher Rebbe is a mixedbag: He made tons of people frum and brought them closer to Hashem. However, he also ended up causing (albeit indirectly) many yidden to believe in kefira.

keraveltheint, once again thanks for the source. Tanya does indeed say it the way you put it!

Btw I note that at the end of that letter the Baal Hatanya writes that after his petira Moshe Rabbeinu’s neshama went into the 600,000 neshamos of Klaly Yisroel in each generation, something which in another much much much longer thread I argued was what was meant by “ispashtusa deMoshe bechol doro”, That is, the Zohar does not seem to be saying that in each generation there is only one person with the neshomoh of Moshe Rabbeinu, as has been claimed elsewhere.

RSo,
You picked up on something very complicated that if you want to PM me I would be happy to discuss at length on a theoretical level, that being nishmas Moshe Rabbeinu being the neshama klalis. It’s one of my favorite topics which I’ve put significant time and research into. But b’kitzur you are right by saying that nishmas Moshe Rabbeinu is nispashet to all neshamos of klal yisroel, but wrong (to my humble knowledge) in your implication that that means it also can’t be mislabesh in one person. Again this is not the place to go into the discussion.

Manomar, I’m sure you’re aware that my point was to bring out that just as the false ideas taken out of those works were not found in the text what-so-ever, so too here the ideas that certain fools in Chabad espouse are not found in the Rebbe’s Torah.

These are not “certain fools in chabad”. I have been learning chassidus since i was twenty, been to many chabad houses around the country, and i know many people in crown heights. According to my most generous estimate possible, there are thousands of people who believe the rebbe is moshiach, and hundreds and hundreds who believe the rebbe was never buried. A thousand years ago this would have comprised a respectable religion.

If they are called fools by you,
then they have a chiyuv of al yeivosh mipnei hamaligim and to disregard you.

what happened to my other posts

it looked like several copies of the same thing so I approved the most recent one and deleted the others

Would “Tinokos SheNishbu” be a better description? How about referring to those people in the same way we would refer to Reform, Conservative, Open Orthodox, and other non-frum religious Jews?

I am so surprised to see ביזוי תלמיד חכם ברבים. I am מוחה ברבים.

Exactly! Christians and Lubavitchers are otherwise normal people who are raised to think foolishly. Well said.

Knaidlach, exactly which bizuy of a talmid chochom are you talking about? That they davened minchah facing the Rebbe? That’s not just a bizuy of a Gaon and Tzaddik, but a bizuy of the Ribbono Shel Olam!

Oy Vey. What have they done to the Rebbe? …meharsayich umachrivayich mimeayich… His dedicated chassidim, who blindly and faithfully followed him, and still do today, trample on his legacy.
Ten years (almost) before the petirah (histalkus) of the Rebbe, there was a brilliant and exceptionally perceptive chosid who clandestinely attempted to convince some of the wiser chassidim, that the Rebbe could possibly pass away, and that we will miss Mashiach’s arrival (if you need to believe you know who he is, which is the hepech of the hessech hadaas needed for his coming – but anyway…) in this swing of the history pendulum. It has happened before. The Zohar says (Breishis 139…) that by 1648 (in our count, 5408 in the Zohar) “…dror yihyeh ba’aretz…” and techiyas hameism will be happening already. What did happen was of course is history. The Holocaust before, and until our Holocaust, the raging and ravaging Chmeilnicki mobs.
Alas, it was etched in the Lubavitch shtuss of stone, that the Rebbe could not die. So essentially, the stone remains and, well, he didn’t really die.
Whenever the Rebbe said those things that were taken as him saying he was Mashiach, I stood there listening, understood it quite differently (example to follow) and was dismayed at what I knew everyone else was hearing. I had been influenced by this visionary chasid. He (the Rebb) said Mashiach is here. Open your eyes and you will see he is here. I was hearing him say “…there is a successor to take the mantle. Open your eyes and you will see him.” He was talking to the blind and the deaf. No eyes to open, and ears whose sensory waves were obstructed on their way to that part of the brain of daas – judgement/common sense.
The Rebbe rejoiced when the Lev Simcha was anointed as a successor to his brother, the Beis Yisroel. (The Rebbe would rejoice by gushing forth with Torah. He said a whole sichah about this succession!) There was hardly a Rebbe who was nistalek that the Rebbe did not stick his nose in (zai mir mochel Rebbe) to ensure that there was a succession. The Rebbe who would not (and it was obvious that he personally could not) take advice from anyone, this same Rebbe appointed a committee to draft a tzava’a, the most personal thing that anyone wants to do it “his way”, he gave to a committee of elders. (As it turns out, alteh shoytim.) WHY? Did it not occur to anyone that the request itself pointed to some type of desired result? Something he wanted but was not for him to write. (In Lubavitch a Rebbe never appoints a successor. Chassidim appoint, and there was only one instance in the whole dynasty where there was no question, and thus an immediate succession, because there was a ben yachid – the Rebbe Rayatz – and no sofek. In all other instances (in unrevised modern Lubavitch history) there was a period of consensus-consolidation.) To this wise chassid I mentioned, there was only one possibility – he wanted them to describe a system of establishing succession. They wrote one draft, he returned it with comments, and then a second, which was never heard of (by the klal) again. It was said that he didn’t sign it. End of story. It was not the end. He wrote an extremely sharp comment on the back, basically saying that you are leaving me with nothing to follow me. But yet again, as on so many occasions, he overestimated the sechel of the people. There are so many examples that it is impossible to document here, or in fact anywhere of value.
So, those Lubavitcher chassidim who have sweated it out here, with this chassid ben chassid ben chassid all the way back to the Tzemach Tzedek documented, and beyond speculated, you ask how can it be? The Rebbe misjudged his chassidim by overestimation? The answer is in the Chumash. Mah Hashem… what does Hashem want from you, says Moshe, ki im only to fear/respect him. Poshet pshat (before the deeper pshat of the Tanya) the Gemara asks, vechi yir’ah milsa zutresei? Is such a deep respect as to approach fear, a simple matter (as Moshe Rabbenu made it sound)? Yes, the Gemara answers, simple, to Moshe Rabbenu. For him this was no big deal, this very deep respect. The Gemara (Poshet Pshat rabboisay) says that for Moshe it was simple and he thus presented it as a simple and easy goal to accomplish. He overestimated the am.
Ay Rebbe, Rebbe, to overestimate is also part of chachamim hizaharu bedivreichem, shema…
To those looking from outside who still don’t get it about Lubavitch today, just remember this mass movement in Lubavitch (those who cannot imagine a chassid not seeing it their way) remember them when you say “tzon kodoshim” in hoshaanos. The greatest scholar among them, stood up on a table (bechayei haRebbi) and made such a stupid declaration (which so firmly anchored this whole notion) that what do we want from the sheep that follow? (He only distinguishes himself from Yeravam ben Nevat in that he did recant, and Yeravam didn’t. But how do you move an ocean liner anchored in mud with a recant? It was too late. And so, until there is a hessech hadaas, where all yiden haven’t a clue about when and where he is coming from (vechol shkeyn who he is) we must wait and accept the matzav kemoi shehi.

Defend chabad

Why is the rebbe any better than any of the tannaim, amoraim, rishonim, geonim, etc.

That he’s moshiach and will come from the dead

Why do you have to name someone as moshiach, just wait for his arrival and find out then who it is

There are numerous points being made and although I am not a Rebbe or Rosh Yeshiva I will add my few words. I don’t mean to be Maarich but had no choice.
I (too) grew up in Litvish Yeshivos such as Chaim Berlin, South Fallsburg, Itri etc… My Father’s side of the family comes from the pinnacle of the true Chabad. My Mother’s side comes from true Belz Chassidim. My parents were very Makpid that the children should have a strong Yesode in Nigleh before they embark on learning Chassidus. Once we were finished High School we were given the option if we were interested, to go to a Lubavitch Yeshiva .
My family would go to the Rebbe for Yechidus before Yomim Tovim, before Simchos, for Brachos and to be Shoel Eitzah only when it was seriously needed. I went before my Bar Mitzvah and the Rebbe asked me to repeat my P’shetl and also asked me about the Maamar. I also asked for his Brocho when I was ready to get engaged, before my Chasunah and once again on the day of my Chasunah.
I slept in the same house when R’ Yaakov Kamenetzsky was there (another time when R’ Chaim Kreizworth was there). We had simple family type of conversation in the kitchen. I went to R’ Moshe Feinsten, Skulener Rebbe, R’ Shneur Kotler, R’ Shmuel Birnbaum, the Satmar Rebbe including to his Levaya and more. I went there to daven, for Brochos etc… My sisters married Youngerleit from Bobov, Torah V’Daas, Noverminsk and Lubavitch. My Shver is a Yerushalmi who learnt in Ponovitch, his father was a Rosh Yeshivah in Minsk and my Shviger is from a prominent family in Chabad. Her father saw all of the 3 previous Lubavitcher Rebbes.
I hope this gives you a fair glimpse of my background.
I don’t usually spend too much time reading the coffee room topics because I dislike coffee and at most drink tea. I believe this is only the 2nd time I am taking (too much) time to respond to a post.
1- The extremists who in this case are the ones who stick out or make all the noise causing most if not all of the (negative) issues mentioned in the comments. Those singing songs, screaming Yechi and trying to impose their views on the world around them are part of this group. In Halocho, Rishonim and Achronim there were many opposing opinions and each had different Pisukim to add credence to their claim.
2- For the point mentioned that they are heretics, how many people here ever went into a Chabad house for food or Daven or etc.. ? How about Simchas Beis Hashoeivah in Crown Heights?
3- How many went into a Sukkah put up by Lubavitch while traveling? If it were a Reform or Conservative Synagogue would you do the same? How many Rabbonim or Chassidishe Rebbes did the same (including the Satmar Rebbes)?
4- Have you eaten Rubashkin meat or chicken (even served by many Yeshivos) in the past (before the whole fiasco)? This was a primarily Lubavitcher Shechita and Hashgacha.
5- Besides R’Menashe Klien there were many more who came to the Lubavitcher Rebbe including Rav Wolfson from Emunas Yisroel went to him may times and constantly uses references from Chabad Chassidus and Tanya in his Schmuesen.
6- R’ Avigder Miller is totally on point.
7- Although many are not familiar with how to Daven at Kivrei Tzadikim yet people from all backgrounds go to the Ribnitzer Rebbe, The Heilige Barditchiver, R’Shimon Bar Yochai, Meoras Hamachpeiloh, Kever Rochel just to name a few. Most who know or understand hopefully do the correct thing. Perhaps you should try to direct the others to speak with their Rov or Mashpia rather than (perhaps) creating a strife and causing Machlokes. Do people Daven to the Kosel Hamaaravi and put in Kevitlach into a stone wall? No they Daven to Hashem and hope that Kedushas Hamokom or the Z’chus of the Avos or Imahos Misayaatom will help them.
8- Why do people go to a Tzadik or Rov to be Shoel Eitza or for a Brocho? Because it helps devoid any Sifeikos Ayn Simcha Kiatoras Hasfeikos. It leaves the Ones on the person they went to so long as they follow his words to the fullest extent. R’Chaim Kaniyevsky told people to stay in Eretz Yisroel until after they vote at the elections a few weeks ago. He said that it is important to do so even before attending a Bris. 100 years ago NO body would believe that it would even be a Hava Amina that a Rov would give this P’sak. However sometimes things change and it is truly needed and must be Shtark un Sharf. Men Muz Kerin A Velt!
9- Is the Rebbe still alive? Tzadikim Bimisosom Kriuyim Chaim. Sifsosuv Dovivos Bakever. On a lighter note (not to make lite) I used to Daven at a Shul and the Rov is part of the Lubavitch Chevra Kadisha. He said that he is 100% sure that the Rebbe is in an Aron buried in the Ohel. He himself went down into the Bor before the Kever was closed up.
10- A person may (perhaps) believe that his Rebbe could possibly be Moshiach perhaps even if he passed away (according to some). If he is, and it doesn’t make a difference who may he reveal himself ASAP. Yomar L’Tzoroseinu Daei. We don’t know what we are in for but we can’t take it anymore.
There is plenty more I can add but I will end with this true story which was never made public just told over privately.
I was at a Levaya when R’Shneur Kotler Said to my father ztz’l “Oib Nish Ihr Volt Nisht Given Kein Lakewood”. My father was part of the Lubavitcher Yeshiva in Lakewood. I can’t go into the many details in order to have some anonymity. Yet I did tell this (and all the details) to R’Malkiel a few years ago.
Creating animosity and negative rhetoric Sinas Chinom on both sides of the street is Asur Midioraisah. I am Mochel anyone who responds negatively to my comments.
Wishing all that Z’Man Simchoseinu Zohl Mamshich Zein Af A Gantz Yohr.

“ihr” – I assume he meant “ehm.”

Why do you capitalize every non-English word? (Also, “onus” is English.)

@Gadolhadorah We would say OK, that’s nice. What does the location of Moshiach’s HQ matter?

@YC GEVALDIG I can’t address every point you made, and a lot of them have been addressed in previous comments, but I’ll pick a few low hanging fruit to focus on.

In Halocho, Rishonim and Achronim there were many opposing opinions and each had different Pisukim to add credence to their claim.

Pisukim to add credence to their claim. The “extremists” (who are much more mainstream Chabad than you make them out to be) do not. They have Sichos and Likutim from Rav Schneerson ZT”L which are not only possible inaccurately recorded, but are often vague and out of context. Which brings me to the next point “from the point of view that they are heretics”. Yes. If they believe in something that goes directly against the Torah and meforshim with the only basis being a line on a 20th century sefer written by some random Chabadsker claiming to quote his Rebbe ZT”L, that is heresy.

As for taking advantage of all the good Chabad does in the world, I do not see a stirah. As a frum Jew, I assume every Chabadsker is a frum Jew unless I have good reason to believe otherwise. So until I see a picture of Rav Schneerson ZT”L on the Aron Kodesh (Ch”VSh) I will assume that the Chabad house is a regular frum shul, hechsher, sukkah, whatever.

And no one is denying the gadlus of the previous Rebbe ZT”L. He was a gadol b’Torah, that is certain. It’s certain things he may or may not have said, along with the actions of his followers, that people take into question.

When it comes to the Rabbenu Taam’s tefillin, look ar the Aruch Hashulchan SA O’CH 34

there have been a lot of comments on this thread saying that the rebbe is avodeh zorah. so i have a question, is it a mitzvah to destroy a rebbe photo?? its trash talk. chabad is not avoide zorah . people here think that they have free speech to say tru things and opinions. legally your right halachically your wrong. you cant say stuff that is loshon horah or motzei sheimra. most of the stuff here is not loshon hora cause loshon hora needs to be true. its motzei sheimra. people may be temted to respod “oh everytime we nicely critisize chabad in a disgusting way and accuse chabad of disgusting stuff you just say its motzei sheimra you have nothing else to say!” theres on simle answer. if we always say its motzei sheimra….. maybe… its actually motzei sheimra? im probably wrong. calling chabad A’z is probably ok. there are fanatics in every group. the fanatics if chabad dont reresent chabad even if it hels your agenda. p.s. i dont know if im allowed to tell you of for motzei sheimra and loshon horah when the rambam says your not allowed to tell someone off if there not going to listen. i dont think all frumer yidden are like this just the ones that are bored enough to go on the coffe room that also hapen to enjoy a nice fight in the name of “torah” while breaking torah. thats breaking lo sisa. realy hope the mods accept this post even though im “defending” chabad as legitimite yidden.

anyone know why this thread isn’t showing on front page? is that bedafka or a glitch?

@YwModerator-29 i understand where your coming from probably better i dont relight the fight. i dont think your anti chabad you just have some seichal. (: thanks for making cr what it is