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Whats in a name, then you and I are not saying the same thing.
Ok, I simply have to come back back because I see Popa has gone back on is “final word” so I guess I will too. CBT, whether you agree that it is correct or not, IS a form of psychotherapy. Psychotherapy is just any treatment that is psychological in nature. There are many, many different forms of psychotherapy. So the question of going for CBT or psychotherapy is ridiculous and redundant. It’s like saying ” hmm…should I take a pill for my headache or should I take a pill of tylenol for my headache?” The pill of tylenol is a pill. CBT is psychotherapy.
From webster’s dictionary: Psychotherapy – treatment of mental or emotional disorder or of related bodily ills by psychological means
I think what Popa has been ignorantly attempting to refer to is called psychoANALYSIS. Again from websters: Psychoanalysis – a method of analyzing psychic phenomena and treating emotional disorders that involves treatment sessions during which the patient is encouraged to talk freely about personal experiences and especially about early childhood and dreams.
It’s funny that Popa is too dim to even know the term that he has been propagating this entire time. And for everyone else besides for Popa – Psychoanalysis is the least scientific form of psychotherapy. It has very little reliability, very little validity and majority of doctoral psychology programs today no longer teach it and have moved towards CBT. For those just joining the convo, I know this because I am, in fact, in a doctoral psychology program, so I have some credibility.
And I want to address Popa directly again – I think if you go back through all the posts in this thread, you have not offered one specific solution to the original problems. All you have done is bash CBT ignorantly and tlk about “really dealing with emotions”. So I ask you again: Please propose a direct, specific solution for us. We are all dying to read it. So let’s see it.
DaasYochid:
I’m sorry if I was unclear when I said “that’s exactly what I wrote about…” I was responding to an earlier post where you had asked if CBT can be used together with other forms of psychotherapy and I was trying to point out that my previous post, (which was actually intended to be a direct response to the OP and had nothing to do with all the discussions that followed…) talks about my personal experience where I have used CBT in conjunction with another form of therapy and found them both helpful (relieving the symptoms so you can deal with the cause… like tylenol…) You then asked me which one I would choose if I could only choose one, and again, I answered based on my personal experiences. I don’t know what it is that you and I are saying that are not the same… But I was not trying to side with any other poster’s perspectives, I was only sharing my own…
PBA:
“Nothing like a quick fix. Who wants to spend time and energy actually dealing with emotions, when you can just repress them!”
DaasYochid asked me a hypothetical question: IF you could only choose one, which would you choose? And I had to actually give that some thought before responding because bH, I DON’T have to choose between the two and DO address the root of the problem. And the reason why I would choose a “quick fix” in that hypothetical situation is because the emotional stress that I was dealing with was taking over my life and taking a toll on my day-to-day functioning.
I actually started talk therapy first, went for MANY weeks, and wasn’t managing between my weekly sessions… so I went for ONE session of CBT where I got a handle on my feelings and learned how to cope, and then the next few weeks of talk therapy were much more productive. I only went to see my CBT therapist a few more times after that, and only once in a while- not because his techniques weren’t helping me anymore, but because they had helped me so much that I decided to work on other issues that I was dealing with…
Of course this is just MY experience and different people may not find CBT to work as quickly for them or helpful at all! different strokes for different folks…
No, I’m not talking about psychoanalysis. Psychoanalysis, ala Freud, is narishkeit because there is little basis for what the psychologist is ascribing to the patient.
I’m talking about good old psychotherapy, where you talk through your emotions, and what is behind them, and where you are making the illogical step.
And the fact that you have no idea what I am talking about kind of belies your expertise.
- What does belies mean?
It means, “verifies the high caliber of”
I am an experienced therapist and use CBT among other modalities. Almost every therapist uses CBT in some form. Most other techniques (DBT, etc) borrow much of their core philosophy from CBT. The basic premise, that a person’s thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are connected is very elementary. parts of CBT are used to treat many different disorders, including Depression and various forms of Anxiety. This Poppa bar Abba appears to be atypical blogger who knows nothing about the topic. I am curious as to why anyone would respond to his posts. I am impressed with the passion of some other people, though.
Can the moderators close this thread? Only harm can come from this discussion. A person should seek mental health advice from a trained psychologist, and only a trained psychologist. To argue back and forth on this website is pointless, especially since most of the posters here (my self included) have no formal training in psychotherapy. The only thing that
This Poppa bar Abba appears to be atypical
Yes, definitely atypical.
This Poppa bar Abba appears to be atypical blogger who knows nothing about the topic. I am curious as to why anyone would respond to his posts. I am impressed with the passion of some other people, though.
Yes, you definitely are a CBT practitioner if that is what you ask. Instead of realizing that there may be a history involved the relationship between Poppa and the people he is arguing with.
Think about that next time you see a client. You’ll be amazed at what you’ll be able to help them figure out.
(You can come consult with me if you wish, I charge $360 an hour.)
Popa is unique, but that’s not news,
Popa, I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were referring to psychoanalysis, because there is still a small minority that believe in it. Now I see you completely don’t know what you’re talking about, because what you wrote about “talking through one’s emotions and where you are making the illogical step” is exactly what the cognitive part of CBT is. You are mistakenly thinking that CBT is only behavioral therapy, which, yes, for the most part would only treat symptoms and not underlying issues. The whole reason that CBT is so successful is BECAUSE it takes from both the behavioral aspect AND the cognitive aspect of identifying incorrect or irrational thoughts and emotions. It is psychotherapy’s form of “the best of both worlds”. I don’t know why you can’t wrap your head around that – CBT ABSOLUTELY DOES INVOLVE DISCUSSING EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS. IT DOES. IT DOES. IT DOES…maybe now you’ll get it? I can give another capitalized “it does” if that will help you…What do you think the cognitive part of CBT is then?
And saying that you’re talking about “good old psychotherapy” is also ridiculous. There are many, many different forms of psychotherapy. To give another of my analogies, that is like saying to someone with a headache “don’t take tylenol or ibuprofen, take medicine.” It is ridiculous and simply. makes. no. sense. It isn’t saying anything helpful.
Oh and by the way, you avoided the question AGAIN: Please propose a treatment, (not just a name, but what the treatment entails) that you would use. You haven’t given one practical solution at all. Saying “talk through emotions” is the vaguest statement ever. Propose a plan – i.e. I often have anxiety attacks. How would you treat me?
I’m aware that most CBT practitioners do not practice pure CBT and instead incorporate elements of psychotherapy, as you note very well. And I’m glad they do–because at least you get some utility.
I’m not sure what you are asking me for. You want me to describe how I would treat you? I’m not a psychologist; I wouldn’t treat you. But I do know I would send you to a psychologist who practiced psychotherapy, not narishkeit.
“You want me to describe how I would treat you? I’m not a psychologist; I wouldn’t treat you.”
Exactly. Now that you’ve admitted that you have no experience in the field you are claiming to know so much about, how about we end this discussion?
I’m pretty sure that when PBA is saying “psychotherapy” he’s actually referring to psychodynamic psychotherapy, which is often thought of as being a counterpart to CBT (which is, of course, also a type of psychotherapy). And I would also like to express my dismay that something as well-supported and empirically proven as CBT would continue to be disputed by someone who (generally) posts smart things. Not a good look.
And I would also like to express my dismay that something as well-supported and empirically proven as CBT would continue to be disputed by someone who (generally) posts smart things. Not a good look.
Perhaps if you generally think he posts smart things, you should consider the notion that he is saying something smart here also.
You ask how it could be disputed, as if it is agreed upon by all experts. It isn’t. Perhaps popa is espousing a minority opinion–why is that stupid?
Since when does agreeing with a minority opinion mean you are stupid?
Even people who are very smart can still make mistakes. Einstein made some, and certainly someone with no background in psychology can make a mistake when it comes to evaluating the efficacy and validity of various treatment models. Also, please do not put words in my mouth. I did not say that minority opinions do not exist, or that every single psychologist in the field agrees with it. Furthermore, I did not call popa stupid. However, he is wrong to write off an extensively tested and studied and effective treatment modality as ‘narishkeit’. I’d even turn what you said to me around on him – perhaps he doesn’t agree with CBT himself (for reasons that I certainly don’t understand, but sound personal), but why does mean that it should be so flippantly dismissed as ‘narishkeit’ when clearly the vast majority of reputable therapists support CBT? Although, now that I’ve seen from above comments that he doesn’t seem to really understand what CBT is, perhaps that is the root of the problem here.
No, I researched the issue, spoke to experts, and concluded it is narishkeit. (Including my next door neighbor who does psychology research and does CBT, and I told him it is narishkeit.)
So if some experts agree with me, and their position makes sense to me, exactly why should I not advocate it?
Popa is making a good point. True, it’s a minority opinion, but that doesn’t make it any less valid.
If you say CBT is the only research-based, effective treatment out there, you’re saying that mental illness is not biologically based, because CBT assumes that it is merely habits of thinking rather than biological forces causing mental illness.
And if you say medication is necessary to treat mental illness, you’re saying that mental illness is biologically based, and CBT can’t work because habits come from the neurotransmitters, not vice versa.
Both methods ignore the whole person. Perhaps both the biology and the crazy thoughts come from one cause. Childhood experiences, trauma, poor emotional intelligence, abusive family… you can treat the symptom, but it will just come out another way.
Psycho-dynamic Psychotherapy, that is, talking to someone, talking about your life and experiences, having someone else help you realize where problems originated and deal with them at their root, is far more effective long term than either CBT or medication.
So I agree with Popa. If you want to deal with your problems, get psychotherapy. If you want a quick fix or to treat the symptom, CBT and medications are fine.
As an expert patient in psychological/psychiatric care, I believe that depression can be greatly helped by medicine and not much by talk.
Lost1970- That depends on why you’re depressed. Postpartum depression, for example, is chemically/hormone based and therefore is treated with medication. Someone who is depressed because of life experiences may or may not medication. It all depends on the person.
Lost1970- That depends on why you’re depressed. Postpartum depression, for example, is chemically/hormone based and therefore is treated with medication. Someone who is depressed because of life experiences may or may not medication. It all depends on the person.
I don’t believe in that either. Studies show that post-partum women are depressed at the same rate as other women of child bearing age. But if post-partum causes depression, the rate should be higher. Rather, it shows that women who are prone to depression davka get it when they are having those life factors (like the huge emotional upheaval of giving birth)
yawn… I’m getting tired of all this arguing. Let the expert psychologists/psychiatrists treat the patients that come to them in the best way that their expert knowledge sees fit… let the expert patients seek the help that they need from the expert psychologists/psychiatrists that uses the method of psychoanalysis/cbt/meds etc etc… that works best for them! Why in the world are you still discussing this?? to prove a point?? nobody seems to be very agreeable here so why don’t we all just agree to disagree and move on!!
Ok I hear that. So I would modify my post to that depression is different in every person. No one case can tell you something universal about it. So just because medication helps one person it may not help another.
The immaturity that goes into commenting about an area where one lacks study and training!
There are several types of depression. Several of these have a biological basis to the disease. There could be hormonal aspects to it, and post-partum psychiatric illnesses are not rare. Yes, men can have hormonally related problems, too. While use of medication for biological based depression is usually the preference, the science is not exact. Some people respond to one medication and not another. Others are refractory to medication use altogether, and not enough is known to treat some complicated cases. Psychotherapy (the entire realm of it) is usually helpful. It rarely substitutes for medication, and use of both is often warranted. All of this can be verified by any trained mental health professional.
PBA’s comment about women of child bearing age experiencing as much depression as post-partum women is simply baloney. There is a wealth of research that indicates otherwise. Perhaps he would like that to be true, but it simply is not the fact.
It is also erroneous to call CBT a “quick fix”. I will spare the readers the shiur on that. When to use it, where it is indicated, just what role it should play in the treatment of any particular individual, ask someone with ample training in the field, not commenters on the internet.
PBA’s comment about women of child bearing age experiencing as much depression as post-partum women is simply baloney. There is a wealth of research that indicates otherwise.
And for scientific information, we can look to a scientific journal. I quote: Social Psychiatry and Psychiatric Epidemiology, Najman et al., 2000, pp. 19-20, 25 (quoted in Sorotzkin, CHEMICAL IMBALANCE, GENETIC MALFUNCTION, OR PROBLEMS IN LIVING?):
>> Lost1970- That depends on why you’re depressed. Postpartum
>> depression, for example, is chemically/hormone based and
>> therefore is treated with medication.
I am a 43 yo man. As for other depression, Effexor helps a lot.
So medication may have been the best choice for you. Other people prefer therapy. There is no way that is better above all others because every person is different.
Can the moderators close this thread? Only harm can come from this discussion. A person should seek mental health advice from a trained psychologist, and only a trained psychologist. To argue back and forth on this website is pointless, especially since most of the posters here (my self included) have no formal training in psychotherapy.
Do you all really think that because someone has a degree in psychology (and even has many years “experience”) knows exactly how to help another person with their psychological issues? For every competent psychologist, I can find you many more psychologists who have no real clue how to help their clients. And for nth patient that was helped by a certain psychologist, there are many more who were not helped, because the psychologist didn’t understand what the real underlying issue was. Don’t get me wrong. There are many psychologists that are very good, but many others do not have the knowledge and intuition what would help figure out the causes for certain behaviors. And many of them do more harm than good.
I cannot agree or disagree with PBA regarding CBT, because I don’t know exactly how it’s implemented, but I can tell you, that there is no doubt that depression comes from circumstances which causes the “Chemical imbalance” rather than the other way around. And it’s important to go through the thoughts (childhood circumstances or current environment) that is causing the depression rather than train a person to have positive thoughts and/or medicate them.
I am a trained patient — in psychological care since ’92, and psychiatric care since ’97.
“There are many psychologists that are very good, but many others do not have the knowledge and intuition what would help figure out the causes for certain behaviors”
Being a good psychologist, or a good professional in any field, does not require any intuition. In fact, most expert’s intuition are wrong. Look at “House of Cards” by Robyn Dawes.
Thank you Matan1: You only proved my point. It’s what I believe that a smart person without a degree can know a whole lot more than a psychologist with a degree.
From Amazon description of the book “House of Cards” by Robyn Dawes.
Dawes (social and decision sciences, Carnegie Mellon Univ.) presents a strong argument, based on empirical research, that psychotherapy is largely a shill game. He argues that while studies have shown that empathetic therapy is often helpful to people in emotional distress, there is no evidence that licensed psychologists or psychiatrists are any better at performing therapy than minimally trained laypeople. Nor are psychologists or psychiatrists any better at predicting future behavior than the average person–a disturbing conclusion when one contemplates the influence such “experts” have on the U.S. judicial system. While other books have criticized the psychologizing of our society, none has been so sweeping or so convincingly argued. This book raises such important societal issues that all academic and public libraries have a duty to make a permanent place for it on their shelves.
That may be true Lost, but just because one thing worked for you it does not mean it will work for others.
???? ??? ??? ?????
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?? ??? ????? ????? (CBT)
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yoma 75a
That’s what happens when you don’t learn Rashi.
Also see Maharsh”a Sotah 52b.
So I met a pchychotic tonight at the dinner. He does pcsychologic research at harvard or yale or touro or something fancy.
He says I have no idea what I’m talking about and that CBT is about learning to deal with the bad thoughts so that you can still live despite them.
But really, would you trust him?
What did you think it was?
Also, this is all b’dieved. L’chatchilah you’re supposed to do it the Maharsha’s way.
PBA – I enjoyed your back & forth, but you’re still wrong.
Just maybe the OP is crazy and will listen to you!
pba +10
Trust,
The conclusion of the book is that we have to use a statistical analysis of each situation to come to a proper conclusion. Intuition just won’t cut it.
CBT has stood up to rigorous examination is thousands of studies. Dawes’s point is that even though many psychologists might feel that CBT or any therapy might not work, if it has the evidence, it should be used.
The conclusion of the book is that we have to use a statistical analysis of each situation to come to a proper conclusion. Intuition just won’t cut it.
According to the editorial review and the customer reviews of the book, it seems the author is stating that the academic credentials of the therapist is irrelevant to the success of the therapy.
The author also brings up research article by Mary Smith and Gene Glass which found that on a statistical level, psychotherapy works. But the type of therapy was irrelevant as well.
I did not read the book, so I really don’t know what the book says about intuition playing a big part of therapy.
But I can’t imagine that it doesn’t. I think the best and most understanding therapists are the ones who themselves experienced the same hardships as the client.
I find it very interesting that a person can go to therapy for years before any real progress is made. And often it is the patient who figures things out for themselves and the therapist just listens.
I won’t argue with you whether intuition plays a big role in therapy. Telling me that a book states it doesn’t, is not proof.
You’re right, credentials don’t matter. What does is that the therapist uses a statistically proven therapy. As can be seen in many studies, it does work.
The point about intuition is that experience doesn’t give anyone any sense about how therapy should work. Psychologists should follow the DSM and other standardized material, not their intuitions.
Reading through this thread gave me “happy thoughts”, so I was able to skip today’s session.
It’s been a good day. Earlier, I called GEICO and saved 15% on my auto insurance.
Lol. I just read through this whole thing too. The winning quote: “the reason Tylenol relieves headaches is these people’s brain fails to produce the correct amount of Tylenol.” –PBA. Sheer awesomeness. People are very passionate about these things. There are a lot of biases and stigmas. This does not mean that one’s critical thinking skill must be turned off. Popa might be wrong but no one (in my admittedly quick scanning) proved it. Just saying.
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