Cause For Teens At Risk?

Sorry, nurse, I took out on you my frustration with the constant baseless frum-bashing on the net. You say my “poll” is pointless. My point is to defend the shift to the right and encourage more of it.

SJSinNYC, I didn’t say, I asked. The 3% intermarriage rate is official stat for Orthodox Jews. How many chassidim or yeshivaleit marry goyim? I assume perhaps 0.01 to 0.001 of those 3%. If 3%, or almost 3%, MO marry goyim, how many go OTD? Just askin’.

aries2756:

I appreciate that you have experience with children at risk. However you must understand that the Torah is unchanging and if Hashem said that a 13 year old biy is old enough and mature enough to be chayiv meesah for doing chillul Shabbos….then that doesnt change ever. You think Hashem didnt know about this generation?! You have to be careful what you are saying. Its our obligation to teach the children responsibility. Of course there are different responsibilities.

A 13 year old has to be responsible enough to keep the Torah. However I wouldnt trust him with a credit card because he lacks maturity and knowledge of a value of money. However maybe thats a problem with us not educating our kids to be responsible with money.

13 years old is not a baby. Dont try to make 13 year olds into helpless immature fools.

As for your ‘proofs’, I can only echo what SJS and rebetzin said. There are arguments to the contrary as well, and refutations to every point you’ve made, which demonstrate, at the very least, that there can possibly be other explanations. I am only debating with myself whether or not it is worth playing devil’s advocate here.

Bring it on. Let’s here you’re refutations to the proofs I’ve written about.

philosopher-

Forget it, I’d rather look like a fool than do that. You win.

WIF, as I said before you are not well informed in this parsha and therefore your observations are not objective, knowledgeable nor accurate. YOU are interpreting the TORAH to mean what YOU want it to mean. YOU are looking only at the pshat. And rarely is Torah ever looked at only for pshat. So what needs to be done is to apply the TORAH to today’s situation and today’s world because the Torah will always be part and parcel of our lives and yet life goes on and on and the world changes and WE change along with it. For instance, one of melochim we are not allowed to to on shabbos is make fire. Well we don’t make fire in order to have light in this century we turn on a lamp. However, our Rabbonim and Gedolim interpreted the Torah to today’s life and assured us from turning on electricity on Shabbos which in their opinion and interpretation is equivalent to light or igniting a fire. By your way of thinking, didn’t Hashem know when he wrote the Torah that eventually we would have electricity? Why didn’t he put a clause in for that? Didn’t he know we would have cars, why didn’t he put in a clause for that? In another thread it is explained why Gedolim assered swimming because we might build a raft for safety and horse back riding because we might break a branch to use to hit the horse. But in today’s generation we have swimming pools so there is no need to build a raft for safety. Didn’t Hashem know we would have pools so why did the Gedolim have to add that geder and why hasn’t it been removed?

Your words are extremely foolish and shallow and I am not going to waste my time arguing with you any longer. To me it seems you have a need to be right and thats it so you will argue your point to death. I will say this again. Yes children need to be taught responsibility at every level of their lives, but and this is a big but, the responsibility that they can be held accountable for has to be in line with their level of maturity and ability for that level of responsibility. And again I will tell you that YOU don’t understand the parsha because children do not just wake up one day and say “Oh, today I think I will go off the derech”. It is not a simple choice like what I will have for breakfast. It is a very painful situation, and it is a process because of an unbearable pain that is eating at them. A pain that was caused by another frum person either because of a dysfunctional family or a trusted Rav or mechanech! A child does not “choose” to be abused either verbally, emotionally, physically or sexually. And when that happens they do not choose to suffer the pain, humiliation and heartbreak that goes with it. They also do not choose to not know who to turn to and not know how to get help. AND they don’t choose to go off the derech it is a process that happens to them. Just like YOU don’t choose to get depressed and you don’t choose to have a tooth ache or cavity and you don’t choose to get a headache or cold. It happens to you and the only choice you have is what to do about it. The problem is children in the same situation try to help each other. The blind leading the blind and they lead each other off the derech. But B”H there is hope because there are others who help lead them back.

As for all those mathematical statisticians out there, good luck with your survey but really, there is no way to figure it out because it happens in every yeshiva, in every neighborhood straight across the board.

yitay- (responding to a post a pg ago, sorry so busy) that’s exactly what i was trying to say. You can try to up-route everything if you don’t want to believe. i’m not saying if it’s right/wrong, just all those proofs never sat well with me.

sof davar hakol nishma-

Agreed. Though I will say I am not against the idea of proving yiddishkeit in principle, I just don’t think it can be done in a way to refute someone who really does not want to believe.

yitay – yes, I don’t have any backing or source, just for myself the whole idea of “proving yiddishkeit and Torah” is correct, doesn’t sit well with me.

gavra

just to be a touch more precise:

I believe the following is true, I would like someone to confirm it.

The Chazon Ish holds completing a circuit is boneh. Not electricity itself.

The nafka minah I believe is that if no electricity is currently flowing into your house (say a local outage), it would still be assur to flick a switch on or off (al pi boneh, not just muktza).

Mod,

To extrapolate a bit, I was always told you could extend a timer (obviously mechanical) to keep the status quo, but couldn’t change it to lessen the status quo. That would make sense with what you are saying.

That’s quite interesting

I agree, if it is correct. I just thought of it, I’ve never actually heard anyone say it.

Wolf and 000646 please excuse the long wait for an answer as I have said before I written a wrong megillah and pressed a button which somehow deleted the contents of my post.

Fist of all, there is no question that we need emunah. Emunah is a tool we use in aquiring the truth. Without emunah we can discount the most logical of proofs. Emunah is a spiritual concept and obviously if we can only go by physical proofs, then logical proofs which are not in the physical realm will be discounted as well.

The answers to the following questions are complicated and I will answer them as soon as I am confident that with Hashem’s help I can do so in an articulate fashion.

But it doesn’t matter, because even if I grant you that it is, I don’t see how this proves the Torah is divine. All it proves is that a lot of people hate us for a long time.

from Wolf

The fact that many people hate Jews for no reason just proves that many people are bigots nothing more. from 000646

I will answer this as soon as I can.

Do you think that Jew hatred is the only illogical long-standing hatred in the world today?

Well, which different nation was hated for so long?

Why do you say that? There are several religions that are of the same approximate age as Judaism — and they, too, have rules and regulations about their lives.

Which religions are of approximate age as Judaism? Christianity became a religion approximately one thousand years after that and Islam even later. Now these two religions which together are practiced by a majority of the world’s inhabitants are man made copies of the divine original. Can I ask you why, over one thousand years later than the Torah was given, couldn’t people come up with something, different new and exciting to appeal to the masses?

In addition, as the Torah and consequently the halachas were given to Jews, the goyim could not keep the mitzvos of the Torah. The Christians do not have laws that they must follow daily, the Moslems have some, but certainly not the amount that Jews have to follow the minute they wake up until they go to sleep. Between washing negel vesser, brochos, davening, brochos on food, watching oneself from talking loshen hora, eating kosher, being b’tznius… a Jew is never done.

Frum Jews are already programmed to think and act in this manner, we don’t even realize that every action we do is because of the halachos we keep. But ask any baal teshuva what the difference is between the life a frum Jew and those not keeping the Torah.

The only way we can be voluntarily controlled like that with hundreds of laws is because the Torah is divine.

Also, while the the way all these laws are applied to our daily lives is different than in the midbar the core halachas are the same. Could we take anything as an example that is as old as the Torah, that is man made, not stuff Hashem made like air and water, but man made ideas and objects that is that old and has survived this long that we actually live with today?

Not only did the adherence to the Torah survive all these years, but it survived the most trying conditions, when the Jews who are the ones living the Torah laws were banished from their homeland,disperesed throughout the world, killed, persecuted , went through forced conversions, they went through conditions were any other nation gave up their religion when they went through all of that like the Moslems who gave up their former Christian religion when it was forced upon them by conquering Muslims.

Also, the Jews are dispersed throughout the world today for hundreds of years already. Throughout all these years that Jews lived in different in different countries, their cultures and minhugim are different wouldn’t you think the versions of halacha would change? The way it is applied may be different for each mokom as well as each generation, but the core halachas are unchanging with time and place and religious Jews practice the same version of the Torah since har Sinai.

Even the Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, the Jews who do not even beleive the Torah is from a divine source always quote the Torah when they want to as their sources, lets say for ethical treatment of animals and such. It’s true they only refer to it when they want to, but one would think with their view of Judaism they would not quote the Torah to support their opinions.

First of all, there are plenty of legends that are beleived by many thousands and even millions of people to have happened in front of thousands of people (some supposedly happened as recently as the early 1900s i.e. the story of the “miracle” of fatima)

If there are plenty of legends that happened in front of thousands of people why do you bring me only one example?

I’m not sure with the story of Fatima you mean the girl you was dragged by a horse because she didn’t want to marry an Arab. If it’s that story you’re reffering to, than I don’t see why you say it was a legend. This was witnessed by a lot of people, I’m not sure if it was hundreds or not, and there is no reason this story shouldn’t be believed that it really happend. It might have been embelsihed, like the fact that she stuck a pin into her leg to keep her dress in place, but the main story could have easily happened. We are not talking here avout ten, twenty meshegoyim who claimed that they saw a heavenly spirit coming down from heaven or such mythical stories where we don’t believe stam anyone. But this happened in a town where all the inhabitants witnessed that story. Witnesses are witnesses.

If we are going to refute stories that are witnessed we can refute all of American and world history and just stay with the archeological digs in Egypt and South America and maybe some journals and books here or there. History is complied by those who have witnessed events and it was passed down. What “happened” between two, or thirty people could be a legend, but not what was witnessed by masses of people.

I will answer the rest of your posts when I get a chance to.

To add a bit from the Kuzari:

1. In general fathers do not lie to their children *about important, especially positive events in their family history* (i added a lot the kuzari didnt say all that, just trying to deflect some objections to that statement.)

2. this is tricky, you have to think about it:

people will not believe that an event took place if it was an event such that it should have left a great deal of evidence, but it didnt

Let me give an example. you would not believe that a large meteor struck new york city 100 years ago, destroying most of it, then it was rebuilt. why? the event should have been well remembered by people living in that generation who told it to others, and their children, many stories about it , thus becoming history.

the Jewish People, perhaps the most cynical and stubborn peoples to have ever existed, would certainly never have swallowed the tale of Har Sinai at any point in their existence, had it not happened, because there would have been no evidence or history or remembrances of it had it not happened.

They would never have accepted:

Uh guys, well my father told me that Moses told hm that all of our fathers received this Torah a while back. Why haven’t you heard about it? I’ll explain that later.

Why should you accept it?

Well, even though you never heard of it before there is a lot of good things in it i’m sure you will like, and will gladly accept even though you are still a little skeptical.

Like what?

Well like 3 times a year you have to leave your fields, your property, your wives, your little children and travel up to Jerusalem. Dont worry Im sure our friendly neighbors won’t hear about this and if they did they wouldnt do anything.

Oh yes, and I have a huge list of all kinds of taxes you have to pay to the Kohanim, so they don’t have to work like you.

Lets see, oh yes you cant eat this and this and this, and every seven years you cant work your fields at all (not a portion but the entire field)

oh I almost forgot, not just the Kohanim. Theres a heavy welfare system for the poor also

And once a week you cant work, of course if you really want to you can, but then well have to kill you.

This is just the beginning folks, but dont worry, after you die youll get rewarded for all this

Are we really having a “Is Torah Divine” conversation?

Can I to play devil’s advocate? (meaning, will it be allowed)

Most of you have probably seen this, andit is not brought as any kind of proof, but interesting if you haven’t seen it

by Mark Twain:

“If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the

human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze

of the Milky Way.

Properly the Jew ought hardly be heard of; but he is heard of, has always

been heard of.

He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial

importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk.

His contributions to the world’s list of great names In literature, science,

art, music, finance, medicine, and obtuse learning are also way out of

proportion to the weakness of his numbers.

He has made a marvelous fight in this world in all the ages, and has done it

with his hands tied behind him.

He could be vain of himself and be excused for it.

The Egyptians, the Babylonians, and the Persians rose, filled the planet

with sound and splendor, and faded to dream stuff and passed away.

The Greeks and the Romans followed and made a vast noise and they are gone.

Other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time. But it

burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished.

The Jew saw them all. Beat them all, and is now what he always was,

exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts,

no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind.

All things are mortal but the Jew. All other forces pass, but he remains.”

Mr. Mod80:

Bemechilas Kevodcha of your Modness, my rav specificly holds that if you do a melacha that is not visible and has no effect, then it is not a melacha.

For example, if you have refrigerator that has a light bulb, but you unscrew the lightbulb, or put in a dead lightbulb, then you may open it, even though you are “completing the circuit”.

In addition, one may also apen a door that causes the alarm light to go on if that light is not visible, i.e. you placed the light behind the sheetrock.

Not to argue with the point (that building the circuit would be the melacha), but the example.

It then begins to get interesting when you start to deal with wireless charging pads. Since no circuit is built, the Chazon Ish would hold it is not a melacha. (there still would be other issues, such as Uvda D’Chol (a catch-all), ask your LOR).

And let me assert before anyone starts calling me an apikorus or anything like that…

I firmly believe in Torah MiSinai. I just find all the “proofs” to be flawed.

The Wolf

Mod-80, that’s essentially the same thing and don’t worry, I beleive the Torah is divine.

You can’t prove the Torah is divine without a devils advocate, which requires questions which may appear to be apikorsus. That’s fine, but then I probably won’t participate in the proofs.

The conversation is not about:”Is Torah Divine?”

The conversation is: “Can it be logically proven that the Torah is Divine”

I think the one is intertwined with the other. I don’t think you can separate the two.

The Wolf

Baloney. I’m willing to bet that Hindus, Bhuddists, pagans, et al, throughout the years denied Har Sinai.

Again you are arguing with Rabbi Miller,tzl, who is the source, as you know for much of what I say. As you know in addition to being a true Godol, he was a recognized expert in Jewish History and published a few books on the subject.

But in any case I’m surprised at this style of argumentation coming from such a distinguished Debator: “I’m willing to bet”!

I hope that wasn’t an ad homineum (or whatever it is) attack.

This conversation makes more sense now that all the posts were up, not just the mods.

I’ve never heard of Buddhism and other non-Abrahamic religions agreeing to Matan Torah either. Silence does NOT mean acceptance. Many religeons were secluded from Western religions for a long time.

Is there anywhere that they proclaim Matan Torah was true?

Rabbi Miller’s statement was not that every person that ever existed anywhere in the world believed in Har Sinai. It was that no one ever denied it. No, I am willing to bet that B**dha never declared that Matan Torah was true.

Rabbi Miller was very familiar with eastern religions and spoke about their beliefs and practices many times.

the ad hominem comment was directed at MY comment about your use of “willing to bet”

And was he an expert in paganism? North American Indian Religions? Zoroasterism? Shinto? Incan Religion? Mayan religion? Ancient Greeks?

Paganism, NA Indians, Incans, Mayans, Ancient Greeks, Yes he was an expert. The other two, I don’t know.

What is this: “willing to bet”?

Based on what, a general feeling you have? What is your knowledge of their attitude towards Jews that leads you to bet on this. Are you even aware if these peoples were even familiar with the Jewish People or not? Can you cite anywhere a statement that they denied Har Sinai? or anything to indicate they ever heard of Har Sinai?

Rabbi Miller’s statement was not that every person that ever existed anywhere in the world believed in Har Sinai. It was that no one ever denied it. If you have any information to the contrary please post it. Otherwise I’m not going to take up any more time responding to silly comments (definitely ad hominem)

I’ve never liked this internet phrase, but I just can’t help myself:

*sigh*

No, silence doesn’t always mean acceptance. But when throughout history, throughout the western world, in spite of the tremendous, pressing reasons to deny Har Sinai, by almost every culture (maybe not the zoarastrians) and they did not, yes it indicates acceptance, it indicates they viewed as a fact, not something to wonder about.

Are you even aware if these peoples were even familiar with the Jewish People or not? Can you cite anywhere a statement that they denied Har Sinai? or anything to indicate they ever heard of Har Sinai?

Fair enough. That’s exactly what my argument was predicated on. Apparently, once again, we probably agree more than we disagree. We’re just arguing over the definition of “no one.”

The Wolf