Carlebach niggunim

Rav Moshe, quite a while ago, already was matir using his niggunim. The use of his niggunim has become accepted in even the most yeshivish circles.

The only posek I have ever heard of who assurs listening to his music is Rabbi Yitzchok Abadi.

My objection isn’t the character of the composer, but the niggunim themselves. They often force one to distort the syllables and meter of the text, and unnecessarily drag out the davening.

Benignuman: Rav Moshe’s teshuva about Carlebach is far from a wholehearted endorsement. It is very critical.

I happen to have known Reb Shlomo. No, I was not approving a whole lot of what he did. Absolutely not. I recall having a conversation with someone the day R’ Shlomo was niftar. He had commented to me about the petira in a sarcastic manner. I simply asked the fellow if he had as many people being currently Shomer Shabbos to his credit as R’ Shlomo had to his credit. No answer.

I do not approve any form of aveiroh. Negiya is a serious infraction, and there were other behaviors that were questionable if not outright issurim. I do not throw out the baby with the bathwater. And I will not stand in judgment. No problem calling an issur an issur. But I am not a Dayan in Beis Din Shel Maaloh, and I cannot judge him for his character. No, I do not run around calling him a tzaddik. But the opposite is likewise not indicated. He was not an apikores, and he connected to Chassidus in a manner that was helpful to others, but with some compromises (that I reject).

Lastly, the character of a composer is not really my business, and that is suggested in the tshuvah from Reb Moshe ZT”L. Do we calculate the character (bein odom laMakom) of anyone else? Do we examine the business tzidkus of the proprietors whose businesses we patronize? How about our friends and neighbors? Do we examine their dealings to see if they have ever engaged in lashon horah, hasogas gevul, gezailoh or ona’ah? Do we check their (wives’) shaitlach to insure they are not using human hair with issues? How about their stockings? Which hechsherim do they bring into their homes? It’s ridiculous, and that is obvious. We need to create a conception that distinguishes the individual from his behavior, and judge accordingly. We’re not talking about being meshadech with him.

Joseph,

I never said he endorsed Carlebach. It was critical of Carlebach. But Rav Moshe held that there is no isur in using his niggunim.

groissechuchum: Are you also angry at Reb Moshe for publicly publishing his Psak in hundreds of tousands of Seforim in Butei Medroshim and homes throughout the world highly criticizing Mr. Carelbach?

as far as I know Reb Shlomo was shomer Shabbos and shomer Kashrus and baal emunah and baal bitachon – there are stories of him being over aveiros – does that paasul an entire person? but the vibe I get from the questioner is really a sneaky way to discuss how bad the deceased was disguised as an innocent halachik/hashkafik question, I am not fooled, it is clear to me that this is an attempt purely and simply to discredit, demean, and disparage someone with fans and admirers. I cannot believe that this toyles harabim to save people from chas vshalom singing a niggun which by doing so would have them be oived avodah zarah. it is simply a very sneaky way to white wash an obviously negative vent and rant

Not all Averaros are the same, Some Averios people are more willing to forgive than others

Most people are willing to forgive missing Davening one morning and not putting on Tfillin that day, Most people are also not willing to forgive (I am not saying anyone did those things, just using them as an example)

Hordus
(I forgot the rest of what I was going to say.)

ZD:

You wrote: “Some Averios people are more willing to forgive than others” I am never able to forgive someone for not putting on Tefillin, missing davening, or chilul Shabbos. Those mitzvos are completely בין אדם למקום, and I have no authority over this. Frankly, someone’s degree of Avodas Hashem is not really my business. My obligation of הוכח תוכיח is a responsibility I have to HKB”H, and I have a mitzvah to say nothing if saying something will not work. Meanwhile, it is commonplace to stand in judgment of another’s status as an Oveid Hashem, and this is a perversion of our role and responsibility. I may be repulsed by the behavior I view in others, but I will never have the privilege to judge. What part of אל תדין is it difficult to grasp? Not even a בית דין has the authority to address these issues. Can you picture a בית דין accepting a defense from a בעל עבירה that he has done תשובה? They cannot, as these are matters that are not in their jurisdiction or domain. It is not up to me whether he should be forgiven.

Remaining with the feeling of disgust some 20 years after he passed away is your privilege, although I wonder if that is in accordance with דברי חז”ל. Once again, this is not relevant in any halachic way with his niggunim as poskim have stated.

I don’t have the time to read all the entries so maybe someone already wrote the following:
a well-known story circulated about shlomo’s last day on earth. There are two versions – I heard one from a relative who received it from the man involved. This yid refused to shake his hands in a shul that morning. Shlomo was offended but the man said it was because he was lax in negiyah. he was silent for a few seconds and asked “what if i do teshuivah over that?” the yid agreed. Shlomo then said, I have just done teshuvah over that aveirah” – the yid shook his hand and Shlomo left happy. An hjour or two later he died at the airport.
How are these people who refuse to be mekabel his teshuvah – holier that hakadosh boruch hu???

ZD, why would you advocate following the goyim’s example? That’s a terrible idea.

If the Goyim do something right, we should follow their example. Appeals Process in Beis Din came from the Goyim

“Appeals Process in Beis Din came from the Goyim”

Incorrect. Butei Dinim today do not have any appeals process they lacked previously or got from the goyim.

Uncle Ben:

You are being ridiculous. The hashkafic aspect is whatever you wish it to be, so that’s not objective. Your hashkafah has no relevance to me, nor mine to you. Emotional is equally not-transferable. I might be able to challenge your hashkafah as being based on inaccuracy, but cannot do that regarding the emotional. In any case, you are entitled to both your hashkafah and emotion, but are not entitled to impose that on anyone else. You keep returning to the argument that I have stated is irrelevant. You address the inappropriate behavior, and look for additional examples, or ways to make it all sound worse. I’m not impressed. I agree that there were plenty of actions of his that were horrible, and inappropriate for someone purporting to share divrei Torah, etc. When I look for works about hashkafah, I can B”H find many resources of gedolim, and I don’t feel any drop of interest in seeking R’ Shlomo’s insights. But again, we are not discussing his hashkafos or his behavior. Just his nigunim. You may feel negatively about them, and are entitled to to do so. But that doesn’t affect how others should feel.

ZD:

You are correct in expecting those purport to be models for behavior to exhibit behavior patterns that are above reproach. Agreed. Again, this has diddly-squat to do with his musical compositions.

K-cup:

Your social responsibility does not include imposing your will on others. It does include Live and Let Live. In the case of rebuking someone committing a sin, that is not your will at all, but Hashem’s will.

K-cup: Your social responsibility does not include imposing your will on others. It does include Live and Let Live. In the case of rebuking someone committing a sin, that is not your will at all, but Hashem’s will.

Live and let live is a very non-Jewish concept. Jews very much must judge the character and others and reject unsavory characters. Tochacha is an obligation not an option and rejecting those who we must reject is an obligation.

“ZD, why would you advocate following the goyim’s example? That’s a terrible idea.”

You clearly didn’t get the mushul. He was saying, if EVEN the goyim say this kind of behavior is below their societal standards, then obviously it should be below our’s. If you know the case he’s talking about, I don’t see how you can disagree.

The idea of not using his songs comes from the idea that music is the language of the soul.
It comes out of his soul and enters the listeners soul.
That’s the reason that music from an impure place is different than buying shoes from such a person.
(ill GOTTEN money would probably have the same affect)
The reason there is talk about carlBach is because his music seems to express devotion and yearning for purity while some of his behavior was shall we say ”questionable”.
Most of the songs sung today are in a great part seriously frowned upon by most serious rabbanim and people with a sense of purity.
The reason carlbach is a discussion is because his music is so close (at least) to the pure side.

I don’t think anyone was actually claiming Carlebach did the exact same thing as the producer.

What is this case about the “pikuach nefesh” excuse?

Avi K. , your facts about the movie producer ( a Jewish Holocaust survivor ) are slightly off. Unlike R. Carlebach, he confessed, was convicted, jumped bail and fled to Europe. He has not been shunned. He has continued to work, received honors and was perceived by his industry peers has being persecuted. Do 40 years Europe has refused to extradite him