Capitulation

“Capitulation” is a fancy, lawyer-like, word that means “surrender”. For examples, the Germans capitulated to the Allies on May 8. The United States capitulated to the Taliban in Afghanistan. If the Israelis are forced to capitulate to Hezbollah, they probably will have to give up the Galil,

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“Capitulation” is a fancy, lawyer-like, word that means “surrender”

A good lawyer doesn’t use “lawyer-like” words in a pleading. If you mean surrender, say surrender, or even better, “give up”. Our law schools are churning out too many “lawyer-like” litigators for whom English appears to be a second language.

Sam Klein is an Iranian Bot

Aside of the stupid opinion on charedim, this tactics is still being used by the Russian army right now in Ukraine, sending former prisoners, minorities, foreigners, etc forward. The only change is they are not sending 1,000,000 people at a time into the line of fire any more, but usually in small groups, one group after another. Soldiers reported walking over bodies of previous groups.

Capitulate means to cease resisting under specific terms (usually dictated by the stronger party). It is not exactly the same as surrender.

I thought capitulation refers to a recitation of a capitul of tehilim.

Participant, take a longer view – there is just no possibility of a deal that will not make half of Jews and half of the world upset.
There are demonstrations to make the deal and demonstrations against the deal.

At this point, I would just trust Bibi’s government and army officers to reach the best deal they can given (unknown to us) options and limitations.

We should also appreciate that Israel defeated Hezbollah, that lead to vanishing of Syrian dictator and closing Iran-Lebanon corridor, and, so far, deterred Iran and now also gets anti-Iranian president in USA. Hamas is also partially destroyed and lost most of external support.

If Hashmonaim had our attitude, they would, H’V make chanuka a day of mourning because the war did not end and oil lasted only 8 days.

“I thought capitulation refers to a recitation of a capitul of tehilim.”
So, now that Israel has capitulated to Hamas, can we all stop capitulating those 2 capituls after davening?

“take a longer view – there is just no possibility of a deal that will not make half of Jews and half of the world upset.”
I would be more willing to agree if this had happened ~1 year ago. If they were going to cave, why not do it a month or two after the October 7th attack? What was the point of fighting a war for over a year and getting the whole world to hate the Jews? I can understand people being mad about the deal, and other people being mad about it not coming sooner. I did not think anyone would be of the opinion that fighting a long, drawn-out war only to make the same concessions they could have made right away would be the best move. Either the war was stupid or the deal was stupid. I don’t think Netanyahu is playing “4-D chess” as Trump supporters like to say to justify anything bad that happens.

“that lead to vanishing of Syrian dictator”
More specifically, it took out a westernized, suit-and-tie-wearing dictator and replaced him with a beard-having, turban-wearing psycho. When has that ever worked out for Israel or The US? Syria being in a forever civil war was best case scenario. Let them all kill each other so that we don’t have to worry about them killing us.

I understand all the feelings you guys think and I am not saying you are wrong also, I just think you don’t appreciate what involves in the decision making by Israeli government and army. I am not saying that we should analyze them from the position of reverence “David never sinned” and “R Yohanan could not say that”. Or, from a modern example, one Rav send a shaliach to R Ovadia Yosef to confirm that he can apply a ruling R Ovadia made 20 years earlier, and also brought a citation from Meiri that supported the ruling that was not mentioned in the teshuva. R Ovadia confirmed the ruling and smiled – ata hoshev sheani lo yadati hameeri hazeh?!

So, Israeli decision-makers are surely aware of pros and cons that you are quoting. There is a reason it took them so much time to get to this point. So, if you take them seriously, you need to look what were latest changes that lead to this agreement: destruction of Hizbollah, fall of Syrian regime, bombing of Iranian air defence, change of US president, taking over border with Egypt cutting off supplies, more gradual – Hamas growing losses, of which Sinwar is part. What are the effects?

For one, this changes Hamas position. Their strategy was to involve “partners” into war against Israel and get supplies through. Sinwar was the architect. Now, the architect is no more and the strategy is not working.

2) Israel can be now more sure of coordination with US. Who knows what were discussions with Trump’s envoy? They now know what support they may (or may not) get in case of certain actions they do, or what enemies can do.

Last, but not least, Bibi has tremendously successful record over decades by this point. He confronted Clinton/Arafat/Obama/Nasralla/Biden … Just this year’s operation against Hizbollah. There is a good reason he was PM so many times. Does not mean he is always right, but you need to take his decisions seriously.

WSJ report (full version, not YWN) says there were several stipulations made by Trump’s envoy:
to Israel
– if hamas reneges on the agreement, US will fully support resumed fighting
– US will work with Israel to create Gaza government without hamas
to Arabs
– US will press on Israel to continue with the 2nd part of the deal

Neville

This is all part of Hashems plan and Hashem runs the entire world and said this is the way the Israel-hamas war should go

Maybe if we accepted Hashems wake up call for serious teshuva and Achdus together as one loving nation begging Hashem forgiveness then Hashem could’ve ended the war a long time ago

“– if hamas reneges on the agreement, US will fully support resumed fighting”
Meaning they otherwise did not fully support Israel.

Nobody can know for sure, but it seems an awful lot like Israel was assuming they would get unwavering support from Trump and had an incentive to prolong the war until he took office. Upon finding out that he was not the gift from Hashem that his supporters made him out to be, they agreed to a deal that they could have made back last May if not earlier.

yungermanS
I’m not sure why that comment is addressed to me specifically. You could say that as a reply to any post on any thread to render all discussion of the news superfluous. I’m guessing you didn’t like something I said, but were to lazy to respond in earnest, so you just posted an implication that it’s theologically wrong to have an opinion on current events.

It is impossible to destroy Hamas in war unless you kill all the Fakestinians in Gaza. Hamas can only have a chance at being destroyed by taking over their media and schools and cultivating ideology of peace instead of hatred. Unfortunately, the Israelis don’t understand this. And so numerous soldiers died for nothing while Hamas regroup and celebrates their victory. Yes, the ceasefire is a victory for them because their people dying is not a loss for them, it’s all about bringing Israel to its knees and they certainly won in that regard. Thanks to Trump who has to feed his huge ego. And of course, thanks to the weak-kneed Netanyahu as well.

Neville > If this is true, and Israel had been trying to make this deal since last May,

It may be an unconscious bias from reading papers that always start with discussing Israeli problems. With rare exceptions, like Oct 7 or misguided Russian attack on Ukraine, most sides are rational and well-informed parties and negotiations reflect this. If conditions changed in Israeli favor from May to January, that means the results of negotiations are more favorable to Israel in January than they were in May. Game theory 101.

> I’m not totally convinced that Israel doesn’t bear some responsibility for dragging this

We do not have access to all information they had at a time. They achieved a lot of successes. There is a lot of both hard work and syata d’shamayim involved. Try convincing one guy on Ebay to buy a beeper, and you’ll appreciate how hard it is to make Hizbollah buy thousands of those!

> I don’t think they ever had the delusion that they would fully eliminate Hamas.

indeed, it well may be that they had to maintain certain positions because of public pressure leading some to being disappointed.

Neville > Even Hamas?

In negotiations, yes. When militants were developing their plans, they apparently did not discuss that with others in Hamas or outside organizations. Current negotiations are conducted with several leaders from different locations involved and they are having discussions with each other, even if they have to use pigeons sometimes. Also, most of the irrational players are gone already.

> what did it accomplish longterm

this is an important question. So far, Israel was able to defeat or deter all enemies for almost 80 years. Are things worse or better now v. 1948 or 1967 or 1973? Compared to Amonites or Assyrians or Babylonians or Romans at the gate?

Most of those enemies are gone or pacified … Maybe the plan is to finally make peace w/ Saudis, or maybe there is no “long term” solution and H’ gives us some (?) time and space to build an erliche and religious country that will impress everyone. As we always considered ourselves the center of the world, Israeli being in the center of daily papers and UN resolutions seems as prophetic as the foxes on Har Habayit that made R Akiva happy.

Israel destroyed hizbulla and half of hamas. This is not less than in previous wars. All enemy countries were still there after previous wars. Iran supports hamas; Egypt and Syria were supported by USSR.