Cantorial Music

cherrybim- that’s how I understand it, at least in terms of the “frumkeit” issue. there might be other reasons, i.e. chazaka or “Ein mesalkin. . .” to favor you hypothetical outvoted chazzan.

cherrybim, that’s not what I said. I said that if the chazar fresser, to use your words, is merutze l’hehal, he is kasher to serve as the shaliach tzibur. This used to be a big issue. Schuls would engage chazzanim who becuase of their fame and ability increased ticket sales over the holidays, the rabbis found objectionable, but there was nothing to do about it. I was hired once by a schul and a small group of members objected as I was, at the time, under thirty years old and unmarried. The rabbi paskened that since the majority of the congregation wants me to daven. . . I don’t have the exact cites for either here, but both being it down in Hilchot Rosh Hashana.

“I was, at the time, under thirty years old and unmarried. The rabbi paskened that since the majority of the congregation wants me to daven…”

So cantoresq, you’re saying that hiring a chazzan that’s less than thirty years old and unmarried is the same as hiring a chazzan chazar fresser? That’s what the Chazon Ish and Rema paskins?

Do we really require a shliach tzibbur to be of sound levels of observance and morality? I’ve been in many, many minyanim in which someone they’ve never seen before walks in and asks to daven from the amud because of a yahretzeit. I’ve never seen the request refused on an ordinary weekday unless someone else was celebrating a yahretzeit. How did they even know the guy is Jewish at all, much less shomer Shabat?

it’s one thing if he approaches the amud humbly. here we’re talking about a grandiose performance at the amud, for someone who’s not shomer mitzvos it’s making a mockery of tefilah.

EDITED

cherrybim, there are myriad responsa on the issue of rabbis who are not fully observant of Halacha. The ones that sticks out in my mind are from the Chatham Sofer; one concerning a certain R. Ploni1, the other about Ploni2. Ploni1 comitted various ritual breaches. He talked while putting on tefillin, did not wash neigel vasser, spoke between netilat yadaiim and hamotzi and wrote gittin without the permission of the regional chief rabbi, R. Mordechai Benet. The Chatham sofer ruled that there is no basis to unfrock a rabbi based upon his personal conduct, no matter how offensive that conduct may be (it seems that these lapses, innocuous though they seem to us were a big deal to the community in question). The C.S. recomended that such a rabbi take a leave of absence and carefully think about his life and what he wants to do with it. But writing gittin without proper authorization was worthy of defrocking as such a mutinous act undermined the rabbinic hierarchy and rabbininc authority. The responsa dealing with Chorin deals more with his insiduous influence on Judaism and does not address his persoanl observances with any Halachik consequence.

I’m not advocating that non-religious people be hired as chazzanim. I think all clergy should strive to the highest level of Halachik observance. But the fact that some cantors may have fallen short of the mark during a brief period of our history should not serve as the basis to derisively dismiss the entire field of chazzanut as devoid of religious significance. To do so, unfairly paints the entire cantorate and its history with far too broad a brush.

can we keep this thread on the topic it was started as

Unfortunately not. Threads here are open to whatever the posters wish to make of them, up to a point. If the posters wish to limit a thread to only answer the specific request of the OP, that’s fine also.

“The Chatham sofer ruled that there is no basis to unfrock a rabbi based upon his personal conduct, no matter how offensive that conduct may be”

cantoresq – Do you think infrequent distractions that may cause someone to talk while putting on tefillin or not to wash neigel vasser or to speak between netilas yadayim and hamotzi is the same as being a 24/7 chazzer fresser? Are you saying that the Chasam Sofer would paskin that there is no basis to unfrock a chazer fresser Rabbi?

Since you asked me in particular:

I am not interested in being entertained during the time of Tefillah. If I hear the Sliach Tzibbur begin chassanes I walk out. My impression usually, is that the “chazzan” is a big baal gaiva who wishes to impress everyone one with his great skill, and hasn’t the least thoughts of HaKodeshBorchu while he is performing, and hasn’t the least care about tircha d’tzibur.

I could be wrong, but that has always been my impression, and although I generally try to work on my Yetzer when I am in a situation of anger, in this case I’d rather skip the nosoyan.

Ive never heard the second kind. I’ve heard beautifully melodic Davening. People don’t generally call that “chazzanus” chazzanus to me generally implies a certain imitation operatic like tone with a huge increase in the number of syllables, drawn out words, and general extreme slowness.

Perhaps we are all talking about different understandings of what “chazzanus” is.

But what I call chazzanus…belongs in concert halls, auditoriums, and synagogues, not in a Shul, not in a Beis Ha Knesses.

If I appreciated the finer points of musical theory, perhaps I might enjoy the very skilled Chazzan, yes.

In concert, in the concert hall.

Since the Mod deleted my last response to cantoresq, I’ll change course.

There’s a great on-line internet site for chazzonis called: The Charlie Bernhaut Show. The program comes on at 9PM every Monday evening. The first hour is a mixture of all kinds of Jewish music and the second hour is exclusively for chazzonis.

Hey, just wanted to put in my less than 2 cents here, because I referenced this thread-topic in another thread recently:

Although cantorial music is not my cup of tea, I have family members who do appreciate it in some way, so I appreciate the fact that it can be appreciated!

cherrybim, I envy your childhood. Who were the chazzanim of your youth? I well remember walking with my father on Yom Kippur during the break to hear the chazzan in the Conservative schul for a few minutes. It was rather amusing when we arrived, my father unshaven, in his big tallis and kittel. He looked rather out of place. But the ushers never gave us too hard a time. Indeed chassidim would fill up the balcony of Emmanuel in Boro Park wen Dovid Koussevitzky was there.

Regarding b’shita non-Orhthodox chazanim, where do you draw the line? You once made reference to Orthodox chazzanim who work in non-Orthodox schuls. How do you diffrentiate between the two?

They were/are great chazzanim; especially Taube. What do you do though with someone who grew up non-Orthodox and becomes a cantor out a real desire to do something Jewish with his life? He knows no better. It’s true, under certain circumstances, R. Yosef Dov Soleveitchik together with Rabbi Belkin did allow certain YU musmakhim to take non-Mechitza pulpits on the belief that the rabbi might be able to turn the schul around, or at least stem the tide. Generally these dispensations were for one year subject to reevaluation, and other conditions were often applied as well. The most famous example of a success of this notion is Lincoln Square Synagogue in NYC. When he was frst hired, R. Riskin did not daven in the schul. He davened at a hashkama minyan and then went there to give his sermon but functioned as the congregation’s rabbi in every other way. Eventually he created a vibrant and very important Orthodox schul; albeit one with a controversial mechitza. The heterim had varied success. Some schuls did become Orthodox, others made more limited changes, but did not take the “big jump” and the rabbis in question acted in kind. Some followed the drectives of the Rav and maintained a place in the Orthodox rabbinate, and others didn’t. Eventually such arrnagements became untenable as the chasm between Orthodoxy and Conservatism became too wide.

Jothar – Funny how the Agudah have Chazzonim at their large functions.

Go to any Chazzonis concert, with and without t’fila, and you’ll see a vast majority of chassidim; hardly what you would call modern Orthodox.

All the great shuls, including the Safardeshe Shul in Boro Park had Chazzanim, hardly what you would call modern Orthodox.

If chazzanis was inspirational then, it is inspirational now.

EDITED

Like Cantoresq said, chazzanus is usually found in more modern shuls and the Conservative ones. Clearly it can’t be that inspirational.

That’s one interpretation.

Perhaps the people in non-chazzanus shuls are already inspired by the tefillah and don’t need the extra inspiration that comes from chazzanus, whereas the people in more modern and Conservative shuls do.

Or perhaps chareidim are aware that “great synagogue music” has nothing to do with praying to Hashem, which is what davening is supposed to be about. I go to a concert for music. I go to a synagogue to daven to Hashem.