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for davy
This thread is only for the discussion of various cantors and cantorial music. Those you particularly like. It is not to criticize or to defend cantors or cantorial music.
Anyone who doesnt like cantorial music, don’t post here.
If you want to complain about those who don’t like cantors, don’t post here.
Mod,Why thank you very much!! that was very kind!!
I think Moshe stern deserves to be counted among the “old” chazzanim. meaning those that defined the way we know chazzanus today. as much as he was busy copying M Koussivitsky, his style was uniqe. stern, in his good days, at the amud was something special.
maybe cantoresq can fill me in on where that style of chazzanus came from.
my favorite stern pieces are his vhu rachum, his midnight slichos and brach dodi (which helfgot resings on one of his albums. also stern would use that composition to the words of shir hamaalos before mariv)
I refer to Stern as bread and butter chazzanut. It’s rock solid, never, or almost never, violates klalei hanussach and is always true to the text. Having said that, there is also very little that is avant garde about Stern’s chazzanut, and while he has the capacity to stir a congregation, and has an amazing sense of timing (his davenings, which someitmes lasted 4+ hours on a regular Shabbat, never seemed schlepped out) he doesn’t make me think all that much the way say Ganchoff does.
cantoresq, that’s a good way to put it, bread and butter. the truth is, the way he would “get into” the davening was amazing.
i’m not a big Ganchoff maven, his chazzanus was very musical,(as was Glantz). I’ve heard his Hashir shehaleviim, which is beautiful. I also know his v’liyerushalayim ircha and Habet mishomayim. He was definately a masterful chazzan, but he doesn’t give me the same rush as stern does.
Another chazzan i enjoy very much is Leibele Waldman. his Baavur David is a classic. He was a zugger as well, he has a very nice Hineni Muchan from before sfiras haomer. also a haunting but beautiful Sarfei Maalah from Yom kippur.
what do you think of him? have you ever heard him live?
Ganchoff didn’t compose the Hashir Sh’halvi’m. It was by Israel Alter. Waldman was a great chazzan. The Ba’avur Dovid was by Roitman, arranged by Rumishinsky. The Sarfei Maaloh was by Beinhron, I believe. I don’t really analyse chazzanim based on their recordings, but rather based on their davenings or concerts, when I can obtain a live recording or read a reliable review. I have listened to about a dozen Moshe Koussevitzky davenings, and they are all the same. The thrill with him was not the repertoire but his awesome presence and vocal perfection. David was more musical and Stern is a much more varied cantor, and Ganchoff was the most interesting. But nothing bar none, comes close to Pinchik’s Rosh Hashana.
that’s facinating. i have also heard the Moshe Koussevitzky recordings, and i agree with you that the thrill was the presence and perfection, he was like a king up there.
i never heard the pintchik R”H, but it happens to be, that the first piece of chazzanus that i really heard (I was 10 yrs old),and the one that hooked me, was a snipet of Pinchik from a live shachris at the end of Ahavas Olam. Vrachamecha h’ elokeinu…….. WOW, that totally blew me away!
PS now i see you’re really a maven 🙂
WHICH RECORDINGS OF MOISHE ARE U REFERING 2 THE WARSAW RECORDINGS R FAR LESS GRANDIOSE THAN AMERICAN/ISRAELI CREDIT SHOULD GO 2 HANAN WINTERNITZ MOISHE SOUNDS LIKE2DIFFERENT CHAZZONIM ALSO STERN WAS A DIFFERENT CHAZZAN TILL KOUSSIVITZKY STYLE WAS FORCED ON HIM HE WENT FROM ZOGGER 2 SHRIER READING ABOUT THE STERN ERA MORE CANTORS COME 2 MIND BESIDES GANCHOFF SUCH AS FUCHS KATZ AND YANKELE EDERMAN
THERE WERE 2DIFFERENT MOISHES MOISHE WARSAW AND MOISHE AMERICA U R TALKING ABOUT THE AMERICAN/ISRAELI RECORDINGS SOME CREDIT SHOULD BE GIVEN 2 HANNAN WITERNITZ 4 ARRANGEMENTS ALSO THERE WERE 2STERNS 1IN S.Africa and 1 who after 2yrears in new york try2immitate moishe last 1shouldnot forget tthe other of that era such as katz fuchs and ederman
I’m not referring to commercial recordings. I’m referring to live davenings. And indeed, Stern did change his style considerably after coming to Beth El. But even with the change, he never really resembled MK.
What about David Shiro and Yechezchel Sion? Their great
cantoresq, when i would be by a cantorial concert i would ask the older folk who they heard live, some heard many chazzanim even hershman and chagy in beth el. they ALL said hands down noone came close to MK at the amud. they said you sat there mesmerised. just reporting what i heard. from the live friday night recording that’s around it’s possible to hear it a bit, especially by the end of mizmor Ldovid. i’m sure you know what i’m refering to.
also, i imagine when you say you don’t analyse by recordings, but rather by live stuff, it’s because that’s where the origanality comes out, if there is any. sadly today it’s hard to hear a chidush from any chazzan. the recycling has gotten way outa hand. (there may be an exception out there, perhaps chaim adler)
someone once critisized MK for stealing pieces for himself. to which he answered “ganvinin darft men oich kenen!”. aint that true.
BTW how do you analyze a chazzan by reading a review??
altermirer, it is a shame that stern screamed himself to an early demise (in chazzanus at least). he’s really a beautiful baratone. the warsaw MK just was in a rush to get to the big notes. when he got older he calmed down. his style was basically the same.
davy when moishe k. 1ST CAME 2 B.E. PEOPLE WANTED CHAGY BACK ESPECIALLY THE WAY HE SAID HOYSHANOS ALSO PLEASE CLARIFY WHICH MIZMOR LDOVID IN FRI.EVE SERVICE MAYBE U MEAN THE BLESSING BEFORE MOGEN AVOS MOISHE HITS A D AND CHANGE [THERES A RECODING OF MIZMOR LDOVID BY SHLISKY
THE CURRENT MICHADSHIM ARE ROSENFELD @P.KOHEN [HE SINGS ALOT OF SHOLL] ALSO D.BAGLEY A’H’ FAR MORE THAN ADLER
I think the piece davy refers to is the Mizmor before Lechah Dodi. The Oz Leamo section always stuck out in my mind. Chagy was a great cantor. His improvisational skills, coupled with one of the fastest coloraturas made him thrilling to listen to. Rosenfeld just doesn’t do it for me, although he is quite musical. He should try to develop his voice more.
I can analyse a chazzan based on a good review if the review is written by a real meivin, and I am familiar with the chazzan. For example, I have a sense of how Sulzer must have sounded based on the reviews of his davening by Edouard Heinslich and Franz Schubert. since they referenced specific pieces and described how he sang them, and I ahve the music for those pieces, as composed by Sulzer, I get a decent idea of what he was as a cantor.
EDITED…from the original post:”This thread is only for the discussion of various cantors and cantorial music. Those you particularly like. It is not to criticize…”
I TAKE IT YOU DON’T MEAN SULTZER ALONE AND NOT EVEN LEVANDOWSKY BUT CANTORS /COMPOSERS FROM DIVERSE BACKROUNDS ALSO IN YOUR MEIVENUS OF CHAGY U MADE NO MENTION OF HIS FALSETO WHICH WAS AS GOOD AS IT GETS P.S. THANKS 4 YOUR CARIFICATION ABOUT M.LDOVID THOUGH MY FAVORITE OZ LIAMOY IS FROM GLANTZ
Indeed I forgot to mentio Chagy’s falsetto, which sounded like a song bird. As to using reviews, the scholarly literature is full of such material, especially the CA journal. And yes Gklantz’s Kol Hashem is a great piece. My favorite of those six first recordings are the Ein Keerkecho, which is a wonderful demonstration of bringing out the major cadences in a pieces written in the Yishtabach minor and the Ki Hinei Kachomer, which molds the myxolidian nussach masterfully. However, in my opinion the best piece Glantz ever recorded was his Uvenucho Yomar. The first cantor’s solo at kohanecho is so regal and majestic, it always puts a picture of what I believe the Kohen Gadol looked like on Yom Kippur when he first emerged from the kodshei Kodshim, lavush b’tzedek and klal Yisrael singing in celebration.
i wish i thought about the kohen gadol’s look other than when we recite mareh cohen as far as glantz goes there r 2 glantz levels basic e.g. shma yisroel a great composition though within the realm of chazzonus advanced for the educated e.g.ayn kerkecho my personal favorite is a fusion of the 2styles ki keshimcho odom yesodo laibele can’t hold a candle 2 it p.s.Glatz dror yikro wheres it from?
wow-just reading the comments….in truth, i never analyzed the chazzonim and their singing like these contributors do…from the few recordings i have heard, berele chagy must have sounded awesome in real life and, of course, moshe koussveitsky in his unparalleled high tenor….any of the commentators appreciate any of today’s chazzonim?
herr rabbiner, its a pity we didnt hear SIROTA when m.k. succeeded him in warsaw people complained that moishe was bearly audible
I believe that Glantz’s Dror Yikra is a Talner niggun. Glantz was very influenced by Chassidic dveikut melodies, and was from a Talner family. Then again an old friend of my mother’s, a professor in Bar Ilan University, told me it’s a Munkaczer melody. My money is on Talne.
My favorite among the current crop of cantors (aside from me hehe) is Yanky Lemmer. He has great talent and takes the time to learn the technical aspects of the art. He is not your typical zoger wannabe/poor imitator. I also like Simon Cohen.
cantoresq, that’s right, i was refering to the oz leamo yetain….totally off the charts.
it sounds to me like in almost all the live MK shabbosim the tapes are running a little fast, so i don’t think he hit a D and change. there’s a recording of the first two brachos of shmone esrei where he does his famous Avos where the tape is a good note and a half fast. incidentaly i was told by a MK extremist that once a year he would do his Avos. the outstanding part in my opinion is the Mi chomocho baal gevuros… comprable to the above mentioned Oz leamo yetain.
chagy wasw magnificent, i happen to use his yishtabach all the time. it’s a nusach piece and the end fits beautifuly without repeating, especially if you daven sefard, you gain some space.
Sirota’s gadlus was lost to us through his recordings.
Karniol was like Chagy on steriods 🙂
has any of you heard todays crop- like moshe schulhoff- alberto mizrachi, the hershtik’s of course,moshe muller (from antwerp- not to be confused with ben zion) and others. I love schulhoff- no koussevitzky but a beautiful sweet voice.
Karniol was nothing like Chagy. Karniol was a bass who developed a contra-tenor like sound, Chagy was a fluke. technically he was a tenor, but his vioce defies real categorazation. Karniol, and to a lesser degree Yeshayeh Meisels represented the end of the pre-Sulzer free style chazzanut, and the transition to more symmetrically laid out compositions. By the time chagy came on the scene, some sixty or seventy years later, Orthodox cantorial music had moved from the Sulzer styled set compositions of, say, Gerowitsch, Rovner, Baruch Schorr and Minkowsky to the style the defined the “golden age.” That style was melismatic and resemlbed free style chazzanut, but was in fact organized and metered. Additionally, like his music, Karniol did not pay much attention to textual issues like punctuation or syntax. Sulzer restored those considerations, and after him, no cantor could ever ignore them. Glantz and others like Alter and Leibush Miller then added the layer of using the music to interpret the text.
altermirer, the shlisky mizmor ldovid was not his composition. cantoresq will tell us who’s it is. and for the life of me i can’t understand why he would not sing till the end of the perek. the piece stops by ki ata imadi. i once heard a chazzan sing it by a levaya, he had to improvise in the end…didn’t really shtim.
cantoresq, do you agree that the Moshe tapes are fast?
I haven’t listened to Shlisky in years. I don’t know who is main composer was. I’m no so sure that the MK tapes were spun.
todays crop unfortunately don’t interest me too much. however i must say, i only heard Yanky Lemmer once, by a private type kumzits thing where he sang a yiddish song from Hershman. I was very impressed with the professionalism and technique.
i heard from a reliable source that Ganchoff expressed his feeling that the Koussevitskys to an extent destroyed chazzanus, in the sense that it became High C or nothing. the hamon am lost appreciation for the finer points of chazzanus.( i can see why ganchoff would feel this way, he kinda played second fiddle to MK). while we can debate the truth of this statement, one thing it definately did was ruin many chazzanim of today, that are busy screaming instead of learning the art. i don’t want to mention names.
just wondering, where does Rosenblatt come into all of this????
Ganchoff was famous for his dislike of the Koussevitzkys. It was more then a critical observation though, and was a personal issue. MK did not give Ganchoff the respect he felt he deserved. David was a bit more friendly to Ganchoff, as they were colleagues in the CA, and moved in similar professional circles. The truth is there is alot of validity to Ganchoff’s point. Musicality, interpretation of the text, creative use of nussach now take a back bench to mind numbing high notes, even ossia ones and ersatz kvetching. The MK imitators ruined chazzanut in their rarification of it. It became boring and turned people off. Perhaps had Ganchoff’s creativity held more sway we wouldn’t see the antipathy towards chazzanut that we see today.
Rosenblatt, like Glantz, Ganchoff, Pinchik, Chagy, Aroni and a host of other great chazzanim, in the current market, given current tastes, wouldn’t get a job as a chazzan sheni in a 30 member shtible on a Monsey side street. At least not in any Orthodox schul.
DAVY KUDOS FOR THE KARNIOL STEROID LINE BUT YOSSELE CALLED HIM THE KING OF COLORATURA PLUS NOT EVEN STEROIDS CAN TURN A LITVACK INTO A POILISHE OBERRABBINER THE YOUNG CHAZZONIM SHULOFF IS A CANTOR AT LEAST 35 YEARS MIZRACHI OVER20 YEARS AND THERE AIN’T NO MOSHE MULLER THE ONE IN BELGUIM IS BINYAMIN AND HE’S CANTORING FOR AT LEAST 35YRS P.S.DAVY THE PIECE U REFERRED2 YESTERDAY IS KOL HASHEM NOTA DIFFERENCE
Please, stop posting with ALL-CAPS, thank you
cantoresque most of your above mentioned cantors wouldnt get a job in a shteeble 4alot of reasons i find that in all the discussion a couple of names deserve honorable mention such as moyshe oysher and did any of u here of PODORABBINIC
Oysher was a great. He fused jazz scat singing and nussach, demonstrating that nussach, in the hands of a master is ageless.
How about Malavsky. Before he made his chazzanus a family business it was very pleasant. to me Maran Dvishmaya is a classic. it’s one of those that you say to yourself every day of slichos. even later he was great. i can’t stand when his tuchter skreeches kvakoros. anyone whose married understands this…:-)
all kiding aside ato yodea rozie olam, bayn maylitz yosher and shomea kol bichyos are all tear jerkers.
altermirer, as an altermirer you should really use punctuation. R’ Yerucham ZT”L was not big on texting:-)
Malavsky was a beautiful chazzan. His love of the music is manifest in every composition he recorded. As to his making it a “family business” including his daughters, his doing so kept his kids Jewishly connected. They went on to raise Jewish families and did not assimilate. Any ehrlich father would do likewise.
davy i dont think reb yeruchim was big on punctuation …. u forgot habas yakir lee.all jokes aside malavsky was a great cantor he could sing folklore as good as anybody ,had a great falsetto was a warm zugger and not only restricted his expertise to hi holidays. vishomru is a classic as lokeil boruch .what better recommendation than yossele having him sing together on JORO recordings P.S. there,s a rabbi malavsky who teaches tora in a yeshiva in Elizabeth ,N.J. but S.M. religious conviction doesn’t pertain 2 the site other wise we’d be left with rosenblatt 2 shor,s and a handful 2disscuss
davy i dont think reb yeruchim was big on punctuation …. u forgot habas yakir lee.all jokes aside malavsky was a great cantor he could sing folklore as good as anybody ,had a great falsetto was a warm zugger and not only restricted his expertise to hi holidays. vishomru is a classic as lokeil boruch .what better recommendation than yossele having him sing together on JORO recordings P.S. there,s a rabbi malavsky who teaches tora in a yeshiva in Elizabeth ,N.J. but S.M. religious conviction doesn’t pertain 2 the site other wise we’d be left with rosenblatt 2 shor,s and a handful 2disscuss
There were more religiously observant chazzanim than Rosenblatt and Schorr. Roitman was frum and a talmid chochom. Same for D.M. Steinberg, Mandelbaum, Kapov Kagan, Eshel, Dlin, Lind (the father), Rovner, Sholom Katz, Yosef Mandelbaum, Minkowsky, Glantz, M.K., and Simcha K. I have it pretty good authority that the overwhelming majority of post WWI european chazzanim who took Conservative pulpits were, themselves frum; people like Moshe Taube, or Louis Klein. They took those jobs because there were no other positions. I also have been told that Kwartin was shomer Shabbat, at least in public. His son, Saul, was a member of an Orthodox schul in Stamford, and walked when we went to schul every Shabbat. While Ganchoff and Pinchik were not frum, they did prefer the Orthodox schuls over the Conservative.
speaking of roitman, is it true that he composed Ashamnu mikol am & Kol birama nishma that Rosenblatt recorded? if yes, why did rosenblatt record davka those 2 pieces from someone else. are there others that are also not his. I read somewhere that Uvnucho yomar is an Italian opera composition.
i happen to like roitman’s rendition of ashamnu better.
to Davie, there was a court case over those 2 compositions .galeh kvod is D.M.Stieinbergs and the famous shir hamalois is supposidly Minkowsky ,s the origin of oshamnu mikol om was composed by NISI BELZER so moishe karagodzky told me. cantoresque i dont no what the exact definition of frum is? some of the above mentioned didnt belong at the amud P,S. NISHMAS/AD HEINO is rumored2 be from the opera
Roitman did compose both those numbers. There is a well known fable that Roitman sued Rosenblatt over his recordings of them. I’ve tried, via Westlaw, to find a record of the case and came up with nothing. Moreover, while I’m not an expert in copyright, I don’t think there is a basis at law for a suit. Many peices recorded by Rosenblatt were composed by others, like the Zemachson’s Lo Sachmod. People somehow have the mistaken notion that chazzanim who were themselves composers ONLY sang their own material. It isn’t true. Kwartin, for example, sang many of Sulzer’s compositions when at the amud. Rosenblatt sang Rovner’s music at the amud. Ganchoff sang Alter and Rappaport’s music and outright patterned certain of his compositions after Rappaport’s versions of the same text. The only chazzan I know who flat out refused to sing anything he did not compose was Glantz. And even he once recorded Schlossberg’s R’tze.
Altermirrer, My definition of frum is shomer Shabbat and Kashrut.
a lot of the yiddish is not yossele and the kaddish which is credited 2 JORO is a Sadigurer niggun from his roots. dovid k recorded it .
I too have heard that Shir hama’alot sung by Rosenblatt was by Minkowsky. D.M. Steinberg was known to compose pieces for chazzanim. BTW, Dovid Koussevitsky’s Hmaavir Bonov was based on Steinberg’s rendition.
who composed MK’s aneinu? Hershman sang it before him, although of course MK put his signature on it. hershman’s is beautiful in a hershman way. that’s what’s nice about real chazzanim, even when they say yenem’s they put their touch on it. not like today…blah blah blah…..
actually, chaim adler sings kwartin’s ribono shel olam and besides for kinda fixing it up (he takes out alot of the kwartinisms), he also leaves his touch on it.
The Aneinu was by Max Kotlowitz. He composed it in memory of Yossele Rosenblatt. MK took the piece and significantly altered it
I don’t know about you guys, but I would have given every last dollar I had to hear Yossele daven once on Yom Kippur. Though I enjoy Herschman, Waldman, Pinchik etc. none of them move me the way Yossele does.
As for todays chazzanim, I think you gotta go with Helfgot.
Yosselle probably gave his best on Yom Kippur, Kol Nidre night. But there were other chazzanim of that era I would go to hear over him; namely Hershman, or Steinberg or Sirota.
Yankele, first of all it’s not worth going into debt to hear a chazzan, even Yossele.
second of all, this is my advice to you. get a high quality cd player with earphones. next, put in Hershman’s Modim, pintchik rozo dshabbos, Glantz’s tal etc. Next, go into a dark room by yourself and turn the volume VERY LOUD. after you’re done tell us if you’re moved.
my point is you’ll be moved by many chazzanim, and at that moment you’ll think it’s the most moving piece ever. it depends on the time, place, mood you’re in etc.
Helfgot is very nice.:-)
what classifies a falcetto?
some chazzanim use a voice that’s kinda in between. namely Shlisky, for example in his Uvmakhalos rivivos at the end he goes into an in between voice. he sounds like a malach. in other places he does a much thinner falcetto. (I’m not talking about the chazzanim (whom shall remain nameless) that didn’t have a proper falcetto, only a throaty squeak.)
Falsetto refers to a tone produced without the vibration of the full vocal cords. It is a disconnected sound, usually very breathy. It’s used mainly by rock singers, crooners and poor vocalists. Personally, I don’t like the sound. Those chazzanim who sing in the bel canto style don’t use it. Rather they use the head register (kop shtime) to produce a very reedy sound, but one that still has vibratto and is connected to the other vocal registers.
cantoresq i dont know if SHOMER shabbos means shomer mitzvos or not even so is someone who sings on a mic a SHOMMER shabbos? THE RESPONSA IGROS MOSHE cites 5 reasons to forbid it the AGUDAS HARABONIM formerly banned it and no shomer shabbos shul has a mic don’ mean to be offensive just to clarify
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