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I am a major chazzunis fan. and I would like to know why no one is interested in chazzunes?
I Love Yaakov Koussevitsky (the brother of Moshe)
Who do you like?
Please post any chazzunis events in New York!!!!!!
BS”D
Chazzan Helfgott has spurred a bit of interest in chazzonus; I never owned a chazzonus album in my life until Hasc 19 when I heard him sing. The next morning I ran out and got a copy of his album. I also enjoy the remastered Yossele Rosenblatt recordings from Aderet/Mostly Music. There are some good younger chazzonim whose videos are on YouTube; two brothers named Lemmer come to mind.
I am not sure that R’ Dovid Werdyger’s recordings are really chazzonus; he was a chazzan by profession and training but any of his recordings which I have heard are actually neginah.
Yossele Rosenblatt
Moshe Hershtik
My favorites, in this order are: Glantz, Ganchoff, Pinchik. Ans the greatest of the Koussevitzky’s was Simcha.
I like chazzanus in a way…far away.
Jothar, Why your antagonism towards chazzanus?
No real halachic reason. I just don’t get my Oneg Shabbos or Oneg Yom tov from listening to someone drey a kup and pretend to be Pavarotti. Rosh Hashanah and Yom kippur are different, as those are days in which you are supposed to spend as much of the day as possible in shul. But for Shabbos and Yom tov, give me a Litvish Yeshivish minyan any day.
There’s an old joke where a little boy goes to synagogue and sees a prominently displayed plaque covered with names and depictions of flags, military vehicles, etc. The cantor looks down at the boy and says, “These are the names of those who died in the service”. The boy looks up fearfully at the cantor and says, “Shacharis or mussaf?”
Jothar – No appreciation for Yiddish or Chazanis; you probably prefer Malaga over Merlot and hamburger over steak.
Jothar, you don’t understand what chazzanut is about. It’s not about trying to sound like Pavarotti. Chazzanut, the artful use of nussach, is about interpretting text, and bringing the text of the tefilla to life. Chazzanut, when done right by a master cantor, is the ultimate intellectually satisfying and spiritually uplifting expression of prayer; like a really great shiur klali, one that has pilpul, Halacha and Agadeta. It’s a crying shame that the genre is moribund. Aside from losing a great tradition, davening will be cheapended as a result.
Obviously Jothar is a Kalte Litvak! 😉
The OP asked why so many people are not interested in chazzunis.
Davening is not entertainment
“spiritual uplifting” comes from the spiritual effort of the Neshama to come close to Hashem, not from even heartfelt music. Davening is not music. im not certain that “cantors” understand what Davening is.
yes music is wonderful
yes music can uplift the spirit
yes they played music in the Bais HaMikdosh
but “cantorial” entertainment, though perhaps uplifting, is music. It is not Tefillah.
besides for the fact that it is a great Tirchah d’ Tzibur which is Assur.
“bringing the text of the Tefilla to life” is done in the soul, not in the ear.
so listen to your cantorial concerts at home on the CD, and be “uplifted” there.
not in the Holy Bais Knesses during Tefillah.
dok36: I enjoy Chazanus too, It is not as uncommon as you think, though in this generation it has fallen greatly in popularity due to no new (talented)blood following in the footsteps of their grandfathers. The Churban in Europe also has a lot to do with it in my opinion. Lehavdil, in the goyishe velt, Opera has become quit popular
with tenors such as Andrea Bocceli having captured the interest of the our youth.
Rav Ovadiah Yoseif (Yechaveh Da’at 2:5) states that one may never repeat words. As proof, he adduces the view of the Maharam Schick that one should never repeat words, throwing in the concept of hefsek in addition to that of possible heresy with certain repetitions, as in “modim modim”. Rav Yoseif cites Rav Feinstein among his proofs.
Rabbi J. David Bleich (Contemporary Halachic Problems, volume 2) brings down a letter published by Rav Yoseif Dov Soloveitchik in 1965 in the Cantorial Council of America Bulletin, in which he opposes the repeating of words at any point in the prayer services. Rabbi Bleich surmises that this view is based on the statement in Ta’anit 27b and Megillah 22a that we may not divide any verse that Moshe himself did not already divide (“kol pasuk d’lo pasak Moshe anan nami lo paskinan. Since the repetition of a word constitutes the creation of a new verse, it would fall under this restriction and thus be forbidden.
As a final note, there are places in the prayers where words are repeated, most famously at the end of Psalm 150 in the daily services and at the end of Psalm 118 in the recitation of Hallel. Each of these cases is dealt with by the gemara and poskim and has a special exemption from whichever issues would otherwise render such a practice forbidden (especially since both occur between two blessings, and thus hefsek might be a legitimate issue).
BS”D
I agree with Feivel.
Chazzonus as a form of entertainment outside the shul is one thing, but in the shul it is a plain tircha if it leads to a lengthened davening where some people just want to hear the chazzan and as such are coming to a concert rather than davening.
The words are just as uplifting if they are recited by a recent BT for whom it is his first or second time at the amud as they are if recited by a chazzan who is paid to perform. If anything, deep down I know the chazzan is a paid performer and I doubt very much whether he davens with as much kavana as a volunteer. Instead, he worries about whether he is going to be asked back to the shul for another lucrative RH or YK gig.
I enjoy chazzanus, but generally not for davening. However, a few years back, we had an out-of-town guest in our shul who was a great chazzan, and he didn’t repeat words (which is never allowed in our shul). That was a great, spiritually uplifting davening.
(Not to say the usual davening isn’t uplifting. It is.)
feivel – I heard that the gr’a and others maintain that without the understanding of music theory, one cannot truly do a proper davening.
Thos who think that chazzanut is merely a form of entertainment, you are half right. Chazzanut is entertainment much like going to hear a maggid (who incidentally is often paid for his drasha) is entertainment. People laud those who teach and interpret and exhort us with oratory skill, but deride those who do so via the sung word. Why? I won’t deny that many past chazanim were not paragons of Jewish virtue. There were many reasons to explain that phenomenon, and it speaks to the curturl turmoil Judaism suffered over the last century and a half. But many grea chazzanim, the core sotck of them in fact, were deeply devout and learned men, who plied their craft seeking the betterment of klal Yisrael. So what if they provided some much needed and often absent entertainment during davening. Is a sermon really any different? Jews needed it and their spirits were uplifted as a result.
EDITED
Cherrybim, can you site a source for that? Litvishe davening has always been with a minimum of musical accompaniment. My Rosh Hayeshiva ZT”L loved listening to chazzanus tapes, but didn’t want it uring davening, as he felt it detracts from davening. In the olden dayd, the choir leader would have his back to the aron and the choir would wear those scarf tallises. then they would all go out and be mechalel Shabbos together. The chazzan like Cantor Rosenblatt who wasn’t mechallel Shabbos was a rarity. This fake Judaism fools nobody. How uplifting can it be if they can go out afterward and be mechalel Shabbos? (I also find myself wondering how someone such as yourself, who sincerely believes chazal made up the megilla as part of a petty vendetta against the Hasmonean kings, can speak of singing and being uplifted by the words of those selfsame chazal.)
One of the big changes of young Israel was they made davening participatory and made it more appealing to the masses. Chassidish davening is like that too. This is music for the “amcha”. I’m not a big fan of this either, actually. I’m davening in a shteeble, everyone is singing and clapping, and suddenly they stop the singing and yell “oomine!” That’s kaddish?
Master cantor chazzanus is a type of performance art. I’ll take kavanah over performance art any day. Obviously, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur’s “scarbova” chazzanus is on a different plane. Those are ancient melodies going back hundreds of years, with a power to move that matches nothing else.
Jothar,
There is no logical reason most of your taainas against Chazzanus should be less applicable during RH & YK, when you are moida it is a munhug going back 1,000+ years.
Also, it was not cherrybim who made those comments about the megila.
I agree that davening in a shul with a real chazzan at the amud is not davening. Actually when my chevra wanted to go hear chazzan hershtik in the great synagouge in yerushalayim, we would first daven at six, then go to the great synagouge.
that being said, chazzanus in general is a facinating art. i was raised with chazzanus playing in my house almost constantly.
MM, My comments were not aimed at Cherrybim, and my apologies to Cherrybim if Cherrybim thought they were.
Music was an integral part of the avodah in the beis hamikdosh. Music can inspire and elevate. Rav Shach ZT”L said that he should have sang more zemiros by his Shabbos table, which would have given his kids more geshmak than Divrei Torah. Rabbi Twerski from Milwaukee says singing in shul is a key part of giving people warm memories of shul. I used to feel so uplifted when I was a child in shul and the chazzan sang Menzelefsky’s Mimkomcha. I once passed by someone getting into his car Friday night, and he was singing “Shalom Aleichem”. Rav Yisroel Grossman does kiruv by walking into pubs full of Israelis during elul and singing Sephardi selichot, which gets jaded, pleasure-seeking secular Israeli youths crying. The Orchos Tzaddikim (shaar ha’ahavah)says one should sing zemiros to develop a dveyjus to Hashem. All of this is perfectly true.
That said, I don’t get my oneg Shabbos or Oneg Yom tov from listening to someone drey a kup and trying to show off his voice. There are some for whom that is their Oneg Shabbos, especially the chazzan. but it’s not mine. Assuming the chazzan follows halacha, I have no religious objection to it. But it’s not my cup of compote. Al taam va’reach…
I don’t understand why people assume that artistic presentation of davening done by a trained cantor and davening with kavanah are mutually exclusive. There were chazzanim like Ephraim Shlepak or Baruch Schorr, David Moshe Moshe Steinberg and others who were well known talmidei chachamim, who learned nine or ten hours a day; men of great piety. The chazzan in the Vilna Shtot Schul was required to learn a minimum of five hours every day, in order to insure that he was a pious Jew. Moshe Koussevitsky had a daily regimine of talmud Torah. Even among later day cantors who suffered lapses in their observances, there were hints of spiritual greatness. Pinchik, who upon escaping the Soviet regime, established himself as a chazzan even though he was well known as a Russian folk singer. He did so to honor his grandfather’s memory, who was a chassidic cantor, and out of a desire to reconnect with his heritage. Granted he lived a Bohemian life and was never able to shake off the bad habits he picked up in the Red Army. But his chazzanut, one filled with nostalgic yearning for his heritage and imbued with Jewish pathos, stirred his soul and those of his congregants. Ganchoff, who was raised with no Jewish education beyond an afternoon Talmud Torah, chose to be a cantor rather than a secular musician because as a Jew he felt called to it. How many of us choose our careers for no other reason than a desire to give expression to our Yiddishkeit? The Conservative movement today would be even worse then it is, would have destroyed far more Jewish souls, were it not for a core group of chazzanim who with a combination of charisma and piety and wisdom resisted the reformist tendancies of the rabbis. The stories are legion of Conservative rabbis bitterly complaning about the orthodoxy of their chazzanim and wondering why the congregations back those backward thinking Europeans over the American rabbis. I’ve heard countless tributes to those cantors from people who credit them with saving their yiddishkeit (generally they go along the story line of I sang in Cantor X’s choir as a child and watching him daven, the care he put into preparing services and the love he had for each of us who helped him make the davening more meaningful inspired me to be a better Jew.). I’ve never heard such tributes about Conservative rabbis. (and before you ask what those cantrs were doing in Conservative congregations, there were no jobs anywhere else for them. Orthodox refused to give them pulpits, by and large, having no interest in them) I don’t know why it is but when it comes to the cantorate, people are so quick to dismiss it and deride its practitioners and adherants and never consider that it was value, tremendous value. But you are the ones who lose out. You lose out like anyone who never experienced a truly beautiful thing. You can live your whole life and never appreciate the deprivation, but it is there.
There are times when I listen to a CD and wish that I could have heard the chazzan sing this piece in shul and even on Yom Kippur. I hope our esteemed Cantoresq will agree that Kvartin’s Ribbono Shel Olam can bring tears to one’s eyes. It does to mine. There is no doubt that chazzanus is capable of creating the highest level of kavannah. There is no obligation to appreciate it, but there is immense value for someone who does.
The difference betwene listeing to musical cd’s and chazzanus in shul is that in shul, I am a captive audience, bound by the chazzan’s desire to lengthen davening. When I’m listening to moving niggunim on cd, I choose the time and place. Chazzanus is nice, but not on my cheshbon. Sometimes the cynical part of me says the chazzanus is a way to give everyone a chance to catch up on the latest news.
Chazzanus can be moving. I recall my old mussaf chazzan, who would literally and sincerely be crying by mi yichyeh mi yamus, and yes it brought home the moment. Listening to a chazzan repeat “uvyom” 8 times before saying the word “haShabbos” does not do it for me. There really is nothing to debate here. Chazzanus is like petcha- a nice delicacy for those who appreciate it, but a bit revolting for those of us who haven’t “acquired” the taste. One chazzan told me that chazzanus was more popular in Europe, when their seudos Shabbos were much more spartan, and the chazzan was the weekly entertainment. Times have changed. Enjoy your chazzanus, enjoy your petcha. But please don’t force either of them down my throat.
Jothar, what do you say to those of us who suffer week and week, yom tov upon yom tov with what we consider to be mediocre davening presented half heartedly and clearly with the idea to get out of schul as quickly as possible? Are we not entitled to obtain some satisfaction in our own schuls?
Cantoresq, you are. But please don’t mind if I vote with my feet and daven in a yeshivish minyan. Like I said, to each their own.
BS”D
The problem is that when a chazzan stretches out the davening and irritates daveners, there is no way to walk out because then you miss out on the minyan.
On the other hand, if you don’t want to hear a maggid, a guest speaker, or even the rov’s dvar Torah, you either don’t attend the lecture or walk quietly out into the hall and wait it out.
Personally, I do not like chazzanut, for many of the reasons stated above. I have difficulty sitting for protracted periods of time, and having tfilot drawn out does not exactly enhance my davening.
However, I recognize that others may have different views. I do know people whose davening is inspired by chazzanut. The best answer is to have multiple minyanim, so that we can pick the one that best answers our individual taste. This is not always possible, for reasons of limited space. However, I, like many with my preferences, am willing to get up extremely early for a hashkama minyan to satisfy my davening preferences, even though I would much prefer to sleep a bit more.
BS”D
In most communities there are multiple shuls :). While everyone “has his shul,” who hasn’t gone to another shul to hear a chazzan, a rov, a speaker, go to a simcha/kiddush, because they’re up early/late etc – or indeed to avoid speaker or chazzan so and so?
Community shuls have a responsibility either to serve as much of the community as possible (as ours does which includes refusing to hire a chazzan after several bad experiences) or indeed to allow for multiple minyonim.
BS”D
Incidentally, I am listening to, of all things, Chazzan Yechiel Nahari right now. I assure you that I could never sit through any tefila he leads, but at this particular moment when I have a few free moments to really listen, I find his hazzanut entertaining as well as inspiring (in that I can listen to every word he sings clearly and internalize the message of the piyut).
Now I am switching to a Yom Tov Ehrlich song, and the feeling is the same.
cantoresq, i notice your favorites were glantz, ganchoff and pintchik. if you appreciate their style, you would enjoy listening to chazzan Joseph Shlisky. perhaps you have heard him already. he passed away many years ago after a career that was cut very short due to a stroke. he recorded two albums, both of which are beyond phenominal. a lyric tenor with alot to say.
I’m very familiar with Shlisky. But there is little in Shlisky’s chazzanut resembling that of Glantz and Pinchik. Shlisky came from the Berdichev school of Chazzanut, while Glantz and Pinchik were primariy Volhiniyan/Odessa.
Cherrybim – “I heard that the gr’a and others maintain that without the understanding of music theory, one cannot truly do a proper davening.”
The same holds true for poetry.
cantoresq, you’re over my head with the geographical aspects (although i appreciate the new info), i was refering to their sound as opposed to koussevitsky and co.
davy, I was referring to styles, not geography.
Cherrybim, My Rosh yeshiva ZT”L was among those who would relax with classical music,chazzanus, Carlebach, etc. Davening is different. He made that point clearlyI’m actually on the same page with you for carlebach davenings, although the “halachic” ones only do it for Kabbalas Shabbos which is a minhag not real davening.
cantoresq, do you go for Glantz’s super interpritive/artsy stuff or just for his more standard pieces like shema yistoel, birchas kohanim and tal?
I loce all of Glantz’s chazzanut. But I can’t say I understand every peice . Glantz wrote some of the most complex and avant garde chazzanut ever.
i agree. in general five of the greatest cantorial selections in my opinion: 1) hershman- modim 2) Pinchik- rozo dshabbos 3) M. koussevitsky- Aneinu 4)Yossele- yaaleh 5)Shlisky- ana bikoach.
would love to here someone else’s favorites.
dok36 what happened to you, you started this thread!
Davy what is it about those pieces that you like so much?
what makes them special is that besides being beautiful, they also have a wonderful setup (for lack of a better word) meaning a very defined beginning, rising emotion, a climax and an ending. while all pieces basically have this, in these pieces (and others) it is done beautifully.
It’s a far enough reason to prefer a piece. Persionally I look to the application of the music to the text. Does the music do something to elucidate the meaning of the text, and does the performer bring out that meaning?
Sorry cantoresq, but a chazzan is a talented shaliach tzibor, not a performer or artist; those are descriptions not found in the Shulchan Aruch.
i LOVE the analogy!! i happen to know a few people who have this minhag. although they never expressed it so elequently.
similarly, on erev yom kippur, my father would listen to Malavsky’s Ata yodeia rozey olam… just to get into the mood. what a piece!
Sorry cherrybim, but a shliach tzibbur is not an automaton. The text of the siddur speaks to us and a proper chazzan must convey that message to the congregation. You acnkowledge that a shliach tzibbur is the representative of the congregation. He therefore has the obligation to passionately advocate for his client. After all, the Judge might be impressed not only by the words of the advocate but by the passion with which he makes his arguments. Moreover, such passion may stir the heart of the “client” to improve him/herself. Klal Yisrael is deserving of the best representation; no?
There are many grounds upon which Pinchik, or people like him, could be disqualified as a cantor. I can’t say those points are wrong or illegitimate. All I offer in response is the heter of “merutze l’kehal” which most poskim say overrides all other considerations. But I truly believe that Pinchik davened with real kavanah, his irrelgiosity notwithstanding. It’s akin to p’sak of the Gemara in Kiddushin in the case of a man, known to be a inveterate sinner proposes to a woman ont he condition that he is a tzaddik. They are betrothed says the Gemara, “shema hirher t’shuva belibo.”
I can’t believe that people here suggest that it is good to cut short our communication with our Creator!
Cantorial music concert, Saturday, December 5, 2009, 8pm, at Park East Synagogue in Manhattan, with music by Cantors Yitzchak Meir Helfgot and Sol Zim, accompanied by the Park East Synagogue Choir and Cantor Daniel Gildar on piano. 163 East 67th Street. Contact the synagogue for further information. (I’d post a link but YWN doesn’t allow outside links.)
The Chazon Ish, in the Shoneh Halachot holds that merutze l’kehal overrides. And as I recall, the Rema says much the same thing in Hilchot Rosh Hashanah.
cantoresq – Are you saying that the Chazon Ish and Rema paskins that a non-frum chazzan, vus dee publik vil, merutze l’kehal, overrides a frum chazzan that he has outvoted?
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