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Wolf,
Your comment is an allegation. However, my concern has been incontestably demonstrated in the YWN and on this and related threads.
Matzo Meal products are cheaper than Potato Starch products
Look at the price of matzo meal cookies and cakes vs the price of Potato Starch cookies and cakes
I paid $8 for a box of 9 Oberlanders cookies which is about double the price of the matzo meal cookies which i can barely even find anymore.
I didnt even attempt to purchase a Potato Starch cake, it was $30
maybe the raw potato starch is cheaper than Matzo meal, but the finished products are defiantly more money
Who forced you to buy it?
If it were really so much cheaper to produce matza meal products, and there was such a demand for it, it would be on the shelves.
If I wanted some desserts I had to buy it and there were some other products I bought that were also super expensive because they were potato starch items rather than matzo meal items.
I dont even think my local store even has Matzo meal items anymore, I can only get them if I go to a store out of the neighborhood that is a more general store (Stop and Shop) as I prefer to shop in my local store which has a larger selection, I was forced to buy what they had to sell
I personally have not had this issue but I know people who have and their inlaws have been respectful of the son in law who does not eat gebrokts and I think if such an effort is made, that son in law should be gracious and eat what was specially made. But think about it, how many foods really require gebroks outside of the cake, the best of which are not so great. Actually those with potato starch tend to be moister.
Joseph
“If someone conforms to the shitta that it is not permitted to eat gebrochts, and DY outlined the reason for it right above, then it makes no sense to eat from keilim used with gebrochts. It is contradictory and the gebrochts keilim are assur for the same reason eating gebrochts are assur.”
I never met anybody who actually held gebrochts are assur. The vast majority of people eat Gebrochts on achraon shel PEsach chas vesholom to say they lessen a chashash of Chometz! furthermore this year most of those will prepare their Kneidlech on shevii shel PEsach since Acharon shel PEsach is Shabbos (obviously some wont, but most do).
It isnt a real chashash of Chometz, nobody says your oiver bal yiraeh if have matzah meal products in your home. It is a minhag plain and simple. Minhagim are important. Especially PEsach when we have heightened sense of mesora and passing on tradition.
And yes some minhagim are silly. That some find that offensive doenst make it less silly. For example putting aside any keilim that feel on the floor makes no sense halachicly and is in fact (in my opinion) silly. Of course if that is your minhag keep practicing it much as those with minhag to avoid gebrokts (present compant included) avoid gebrokts
Ubiquitin,
The minhag is based on a chashash that some whole kernels of wheat remained in the flour, so the minhag was probably for keilim as well.
ZD, nonsense. You could have bought fruit for dessert, or macaroons for $2.50 a container.
When I was shopping in the store, I saw MATZA BAGS, meaning plastic bags you put the Matza in to eat it
There is also a minhag among some not to eat ANY matza the last 6 days of Pesach for fear of Gebrachs, they only eat it the first 2 days because its a mitzvah
Many years ago, I was a live in babysitter, by a couple that was Sefardic and ate kitniyos on Pesach. I did not eat kitniyos and asked a Posek, and he said that it was perfectly OK for me to cook in their pots and eat on their dishes, after they were washed clean.
My parents eat Gebrocht (I am the wife) my husband and his family do not.
When we go to my parents for the first days, my mom never made gebrocht for any of the meals & we were told that pots, not used for a year, were okay for us to eat from.
If we went to my parents for the last days, my mom made gebrochts, which we ate on isru chag, but, my mom cooked for us, in aluminum pans, for the seventh day.
It all depends on how flexible your parents/inlaws are.
FYI. ALL our married daughters eat gebrochts. When we go to them, and we always do, they are very careful what they make, & when, so we will feel comfortable eating at their table.
It is almost more of a “family issue” than a minhug issue. How much do you respect your parents’ minhagim and how much do they respect yours !!
When I was shopping in the store, I saw MATZA BAGS, meaning plastic bags you put the Matza in to eat it
Did they force you to buy that too?
I wasnt forced to buy that
I know some older Bochrim who really dont have many places to go especially for Pesach as many people are away.
One of the people he can go to eats Matza from a bag
(We could not have them over as we were not home because we went to family)
Avi K:
MW, you are correct
So we do agree on something 🙂
However, it is also offensive, presumptuous, and frankly just ridiculous for anyone in any generation to look for chumrot
I don’t believe that to (necessarily) be true. To casually dismiss a practice that large segments of Klal Yisroel have been adhering to for so many generations is an issue. But to say that we today may need a particular extra safeguard today so that people don’t ch”v end up violating actual prohibitions is something Chazal and their successors have been charged with doing since time immemorial, as stated in the very first Mishnah in Pirkei Avos: ??? ??? ?????.
zd:
companies are forced to make only non-gebroachs items
Funny, ’cause I seem to recall there being a gebrokts section in my local kosher grocery… must have been my imagination.
But seriously, if you honestly expect everyone to follow the most lenient opinion on everything just to give companies an incentive to make better/cheaper food for you, I have nothing left to say to you. We clearly do not share enough common assumptions and attitudes to be able to have a real conversation.
lesschumras:
DY:
Did they force you to buy that too?
No, but it caused him so much emotional distress just seeing that stuff on the store shelves that everybody should be banned from using anything even remotely like that so as not to ch”v hurt anybody else’s feelings.
One of the people he can go to eats Matza from a bag
I have a cousin who eats his matzah in a napkin while turned away from the table.
But seriously, if you honestly expect everyone to follow the most lenient opinion on everything just to give companies an incentive to make better/cheaper food for you, I have nothing left to say to you. We clearly do not share enough common assumptions and attitudes to be able to have a real conversation.
Eating Gebrachs is not a “Lenient Opion” its a chumra for some.
I have as much right to better/cheaper food as someone has the right not to eat Gebrachs
I should have added, the host who has the bocher over, makes all his guests also eat matza from the plastic bag (I get it that it is his house and he has the right to make his own house rules)
maybe some of you can spend as much energy on your internalizing the message of pesach as you spend on making sure zdad’s comments are batul-ed. and please dont embarass yourselves by trying to make some mitzvas asie from it.
“There is also a minhag among some not to eat ANY matza the last 6 days of Pesach for fear of Gebrachs, they only eat it the first 2 days because its a mitzvah”
That is the reason? Because of “gebrachs”? That’s strange, because it is a Burkett hanhogo and they do not have the minhag of gebrokts.
You really got to stop making up this stuff.
Mods, is there a record for a most (self) edited post? 😉
The message of Pesach is not supposed to be ?? ?????? ???? ???.
I have as much right to better/cheaper food as someone has the right not to eat Gebrachs
Market forces win. It’s not about rights. What’s weird is that you seemed to make up that food is more expensive because people are makpid on gebrokts, but it’s simply not true.
The inexpensive non gebrokts stuff uses plain (not shmurah, not 18 minute) matzah meal, but to use 18 minute or shmurah would be much more expensive.
I should have added, the host who has the bocher over, makes all his guests also eat matza from the plastic bag
Sure, not to have matzah crumbs fall into his soup.
well that’s a good start but you should really keep at it. maybe look into some of the more mystical reasons for not eating chametz – there’s so much to learn and grow from!
Brisker hanhogo, not Burkett.
Autocorrect issue.
MW, so you are making a gezera on a minhag?
zdad:
I have as much right to better/cheaper food as someone has the right not to eat Gebrachs
And I have as much right to better/cheaper non-gebrokts food as someone has the right to eat gebrokts. Therefore, you are obligated to buy non-gebrokts food so as to make my non-gebrokts food better and cheaper.
zdad, just out of curiosity, does it bother as much when you see somebody buying chometz on Pessach as it apparently does when you see “Matzah bags” for sale?
Syag Lchochma:
You know, I was about to write a knee-jerk retort about ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? being one of the lessons of the Seder when I caught myself. You’re right, we should be this involved in learning the lessons and Torah of Pessach as we are in this discussion.
As someone who doesn’t eat non-gebrokst, I believe that I have a right to call my minhag silly. It is a minhag which all [should] agree isn’t required by the letter of the law. Even silly minhagim should be respected, though, when it comes to chometz on pesach. We just shouldn’t make more of them, imho, without a very clear reason justifying the burden. And because it is silly, hataras
nedarim works.
The minhag in Chabad is not eat from keilim (dishes) that were used for gebrots, and so was the custom of certain Litvishe gedolei Yisroel. Such keilim should be put away and not used.
However, in Chabad the minhag is to eat gebrots on the regular keilim on Aharon shel Pesach, and then to use these keilim again next Pesach, without kashering (since a year has passed, it is OK).
HOWEVER…
Avi K:
No, I was explaining the concept of gezera/chumra in general. As far as I’m aware, nobody (here or elsewhere) has suggested making a gezera on kitniyos.
Also see:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/whats-with-the-left-wing-and-kitniyos#post-563775
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/whats-with-the-left-wing-and-kitniyos#post-563803
A utensil which was used with gebrokts food may be used for non-gebrokts. [Natei Gavriel Pesach 3:37:13:footnote 26]
Nonetheless, the custom of some is to have separate utensils for gebrokts, and only use such a utensil on the last day of Pesach.
Shuni Pesach page 160, Ohr Yisroel 15:page 145.]
Some permit food which was
cooked in the same pot with gebrokts foods. [Tzitz Eliezer 12:53:2.]
Charliehall – kitniyos are not permitted to be eaten erev pesach after zman issur achila.
maybe look into some of the more mystical reasons for not eating chametz
I actually saw a fascinating pshat from the Ramchal in Derech HaShem: He says that chometz is symbolic of the “extras” in physicality – by leaving the bread to rise for extra time, we add extra flavor and texture to it. And at this sensitive spiritual time for us, when are being born as a spiritual nation, we must abstain from the “extras” of pysicality so as to be exclusively focused on the spiritual.
I found this to be a nice thought to bear in mind this time of yomtov, when eating Matza is starting to lose its novelty and the food selection available can sometimes seem somewhat boring – we are supposed to be training ourselves to not focus on the “extras” of physicality such as taste and texture, but rather on more important spiritual matters.
mik5:
Thank you for that Halachic compilation.
kitniyos are not permitted to be eaten erev pesach after zman issur achila.
Source? (Not challenging, just inquiring.)
I didnt see anyone purchase the matza bags. I think it was no different than Zip Lock bags except someone called them Matza bags
I rarely shop at regular stores anymore so I didnt see anyone buy chametz on Pesach and If I was driving past such a person walking into the stop and Shop or key food, I wouldnt have known they were jewish
By causing people to purchase more expensive non-gebrachs you are taking food away from poor single mothers with kids money for food to support your chumra. Chumra arent in a vaccuum, Kol Bnei Yisroel Arevim Zeh Lo Zeh and you are causing these people to starve
frumnotyeshivish:
Even silly minhagim should be respected, though, when it comes to chometz on pesach.
Don’t you think that calling it silly is, by definition, not respecting it?
hataras nedarim works
Again: do you think hataras nedarim should also solve the “problem” of second day yomtov?
zdad:
I rarely shop at regular stores anymore so I didnt see anyone buy chametz on Pesach and If I was driving past such a person walking into the stop and Shop or key food, I wouldnt have known they were jewish
You have only sidestepped the question, so I’ll tweak it a bit: would it bother you as much when if you would see somebody buying chometz on Pessach as it apparently does when you see “Matzah bags” for sale?
By causing people to purchase more expensive non-gebrachs you are taking food away from poor single mothers with kids money for food to support your chumra. Chumra arent in a vaccuum, Kol Bnei Yisroel Arevim Zeh Lo Zeh and you are causing these people to starve
As I have conclusively proven above, according to your logic, by not buying non-gebrokts products you are making them more expensive. By causing the non-gebrokts food that people purchase to become more expensives you are taking food away from poor single mothers with kids money for food to support your kullah. Kullos arent in a vaccuum, Kol Bnei Yisroel Arevim Zeh Lo Zeh and you are causing these people to starve.
You wicked person you, starving widows and orphans like that.
As someone who doesn’t eat non-gebrokst, I believe that I have a right to call my minhag silly.
As someone who eats gebrokts, I believe I have a right to say that I find it offensive nonetheless.
@dy you have a right to your silly feelings. And I’d like to clarify that I meant that I only eat non-gebrokst.
As someone who doesn’t eat non-gebrokst, I believe that I have a right to call my minhag silly.
If it’s silly, then why do you follow it?
For the record, the Vilna Gaon laughed about the minhag of not eating gebrots, and there are those who opposed this minhag due to not having simchas yom tov.
mw13 – No source, but it’s a davar pashut. Starting from zman issur achilas chametz, one may not eat any food that it is forbidden to eat on Pesach. Kitniyos is forbidden to be eaten on Pesach (for Ashkenazim). Regarding peeling produce – those who follow this chumra (of peeling all produce) are likewise to avoid eating unpeeled produce starting from zman issur achila, although some are lenient due to chametz being botel erev Pesach until shkia.
Source for not eating kitniyos erev Pesach: ?? ???? ??”?
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32461&st=&pgnum=106
Quoted by ??? ???? ?’, ?”?. He calls one who does a ???? ???.
I have no obligation to lower the prices for your Chumra, especially if I dont belive in it. I didnt call it silly or mock it in any way. I just I didnt belive in it and refuse to support it in any way . You need to prove to me to support your Chumra, not the other way around
And I never said I was upset I saw the Matza bags, I was just commenting that I though it was nonsense that such a product exists especially when one can bu Zip Lock bags for cheaper if you belive in such a chumra
Thank you.
Please translate, if you can, especially what is a ???? ???.
“You have only sidestepped the question, so I’ll tweak it a bit: would it bother you as much when if you would see somebody buying chometz on Pessach as it apparently does when you see “Matzah bags” for sale?”
I think you can find your answer on the other thread about someone who had a guest bring chometz on pesach.
A person who is having non religious guests is obviously not going to scream at them for an error. But that the poster does not even give a krechtz about the cometz and on this thread gets all heated about those who are makpid on gebrokts gives you the answer to your question, unfortunately.
zdad:
I have no obligation to lower the prices for your Chumra, especially if I dont belive in it.
I have no obligation to lower the prices for your Kullah, especially if I don’t believe in it.
And what happened to your concern for all of the poor, starving widows and orphans?
“I just I didnt belive in it and refuse to support it in any way .”
1) You have never demonstrated that gebroked items are cheaper, you compared completely different items.
2) Why would you insist that manufacturers and distributors lose money for your odd whims? It makes snes to produce a product for the widest market that they can.
3) The large non heimish manufacturers make gebrokte cookies and cakes. go ahead and buy that. But most people who would not buy tyose products for pesach would also not eat food made from plain matzo on pesach. And cookies made ffrom shmura matzo or even 18 minute matzo, as demonstrated above, are more expensive than the non geborkte products.
4) What about all the people with Celiac, including poor widows and orphan. By driving up the cost of non gebrokte products, you are making them starve.
5) Nobody is making you buy non gebrokte products, and if it is too expensive, go without or make it yourself. Just like any item that one decides is too expensive. In fact, no one here is making you buy kosher for Passover products at all, which are more expensive, although we would be terribly bothered if you bought chometzdike products on passover.
6) I wonder how you know which items cost more if , as you’ve already said earlier, you cannot even be bothered to check the hechsher on a package, certainly you don’t have time to compare prices.
7) Another good quote http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/whats-with-the-left-wing-and-kitniyos/page/2#post-564047
mik5
“If it’s silly, then why do you follow it?”
Tradition!
I beleive mesora should be followed. Of course it is silly. DY mentioned a chashash for chmoetz. Nobody views it as a real chashash otherwise you wouldtn eat it the last day. As for keilim a year later the bleios of gebrokts/ “chashah cometz” dont magically disapear and yes I know there are some who use seperate kelim for last day or only make keneidlach if the next year is a leap year so the added month can make the belios over a year old but these arent mainstream minhagim.
BTW, Has anyone heard of a minhag applying baal yiraeh baal yimatzeh to this “Chashash Chametz” during the first 7 days?
And as mik5 said “For the record, the Vilna Gaon laughed about the minhag of not eating gebrots, ” Why wouldnt he? Its pretty funny!
:??? ????
????? ??’ ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?????, ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??”?. ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??’ ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???”? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???’ ??? ??? ?? ??? ??, ????? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????, ???? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????, ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???
And what his honor wrote (asked) about whether the minhag of not eating kitniyos is only on Pesach or also erev Pesach, there’s no (need to) elaborate on this since the Chok Yaakov (571: 2) wrote that it is assur on erev Pesach, and he is quoted by the Maharsham in Daas Torah (453).
From the words of the P’ri Megadim, who writes (444) that matzah made of kitniyos is permitted to be eaten, there is no proof (to the contrary), because he holds that matzah is different.
The S’dei Chemed (Chometz Section, 7:20) also writes that the minhag of our rabbis was to eat only fruit, meat, and the like on erev Pesach, which is as if explicitly forbidding kitniyos, and they also disagree with the above P’ri Megadim.
Do not contemplate (to disagree with) this, and one who does (eat kitniyos on erev Pesach) is a fence breacher.
If you would shop and purchased similar items on a normal basis, you know the Hashsghcas without even looking (I dont need to look at a coke bottle for a Hashghca) , yes Pesach stuff is different than regular stuff, but I usually try to get stuff I am familiar with and brands that I know so its not as hard as you think
The same is true in Eretz Yisroel; if you know which hechsherim do not allow kitniyos, it’s not as hard as you think.
“, yes Pesach stuff is different than regular stuff, but I usually try to get stuff I am familiar with and brands that I know so its not as hard as you think”
You are the only one who says it is difficult to check the hashgochas, no one else said that. All the other people concurred that you always have to check the hashgochas and specifically for pesach when there have been many occurrences where items that were not pesachdik, got mixed in with the pesachdik in stores, for any number of reasons.
Checking the items one buys is not a “chumra”, it is basic halacha.
And your answer to does not answer how you can possibly look so closely at prices, which change all the time o determine what cost more?
A quick check as I just got back from the store
the Potato starch cookies costed $9.99, the Geborachs cookies costed $3.99 each
and in case you were curious, the Quinoa sushi started at $8.50 each
And If I see something obvious;y wrong, you look or if its something questionable you also look. THe common stuff that you know, is something else. Most things I know its like anything else you go to the store enough, you know what to look for.
What types of cookies, how big were the packages, what companies made them?
The Potato Starch ones were Oberlander, The Gebrachs I forgot. Each was about 12 oz. The Gebrachs came in a bag not a box. They were chocolate chip cookies
Oberlander’s tend to be expensive. I think there are less expensive ones.
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