Cancel Culture

This isn’t new. Anything that doesn’t align with their agenda (whatever that is) is a target.

I don’t understand how anyone can oppose removing confederate statues. and spare me absurd arguments about “erasing history” We don’t need a statue to rememebr people, A statue glorifies people. nobody suggests Renaming a military installation fort John Wilkes Booth so he isnt forgotten, or building a statue of Mohamad Attah.
Kneeling in protest before a US flag is wrong, but taking up arms against the US and firing upon that flag deserves a statue?
please help

(I dont disagree with the opposing cancel culture and shutting down free speech that is taking hold of the left, and don’t get me started on the gleeful public excutions of people who do or tweet something, that may be offensive (and often isnt), but the statue example is one that I don’t get the support for.)

HBO temporarily banned ‘Gone with the Wind’ after being called out, so I would say say popular culture is next, either movies or books.

Charlie, I seriously doubt if anyone other than the confrontation seekers know for whom they were named. In fact, Army officals did not even know. A base was built and the locals decided on the names. Google “The history behind the naming of Fort Bragg as Pentagon considers renaming base”. It goes far beyond that though. Any historical figure who did anything wrong is out. In fact, they are even calling out Trump for holding a rally in Tulsa (scene of one of the worst racial massacres in American history) on June 19 (Abolition Day). The inmates have taken over the asylum.

1. From 1865 to 2017, America didn’t consider the South treasonous.
2. There is a monument to John Andre in Tappan, NY
3. The South had a right to leave an evolved system which they never signed up to.
4. Read Jefferson Davis’ Rise and Fall of the Confederacy.
5. Lincoln was a war mongering President who had no right attacking the Southern states and killing millions of Americans to “preserve the Union”. (Fort Sumter was a Northern provocation. They had no right being in that area.)
6. Some of the statues may have been a protest of desegregation in the 20th century. If that’s true knock those down.
7. Certain statues such as of Forrest (began the KKK in postbellum South) may actually be representing the evil of White Supremacism. If this is true knock them down.
8. Robert E Lee was always and still is considered at worst a great american personality and at best an American Hero. Some people don’t like the deification of the general, but there is no doubt that he represents more than just a slave owber fighting for his rights to own slaves. It would do well for us to remember that we had people like him in our history. (And sinve were on Yeshova World, based on the documents that we have, he was MUCH more tolerant to his Jewish soldiers than Union General Grant was. Making sure that they were able to take a break on Yom Tov if I remember correctly. Getting Matzah.)
9.and tgat is the point of these “protesters”. They want you to think that every remembrance of someone in history is trying to represent evil since naturally every single person living 100 years ago is in some way ot another less liberal than today. Does FDR represent anti Asian oppression?

Shnitzel
1. What about them?
2. No they werent exactly the same
3. Yes he was a traitor

1. Of course we did. It was just felt that it was better for the sake of peace to come together than to dwell on the past
2. so take it down
3. The supreme court ruled in Texas vs white that this is not so.
4. Why? (im not opposed reading it but is there a point or are you just reccomnding good bucks I liked the invisible gorrilla)
5. See number 3. ( And even if that were so, clearly yo uare operatign in a different framework of “right and wrong” Most of thsoe includign Trump who support keeping the confederate statues view Lincoln as a great president )
6. Its a lot of them see timelines of when they were put up
7. One correct point
8.- 9 Of course every individual is multi -faceted. But statues of Robert E LEe are not put up to commemorate how great he was that he gave Matza n or or Statues of FDR put uop to commeorate how well he dealt with Asian-Americans during WW2. the bottom line is Statues of Confederate generals are put up SOLELY to commemorate/glorify their role in a revolt against the US. A revolt that was largely fueled by racisim.

1. They were also treasonous yet there are statues of them all over the US.
2. One correct point.
3. He was not a traitor to the Commonwealth of Virginia.

1. That’s an opinion. I think it was more complex then that. Lincoln when visiting Richmond after the war asked the band to play Dixie because already then he said the Confederacy was inherently an American thing.
2. You have to be insane to be so unmagnaminious.
3. Texas v White was in 1869. Nice try.
4. Because then you will find out how and why the Southerners seceded, from their own POV. Of course, in a Cancel Culture society they would ban the book so that their POV is never heard. (Invisible Gorilla looks like an interesting read Ill try to get it).
5. See number 3 (its actually an interesting phenomena that Lincoln wasn’t considered such a bad guy in postbellum South. You can read Rav Ilowy’s hesped of him despite the fact that Rav Ilowy was very pro-South (he ran away from Baltimore to New Orleans). I think it had to do with the way Lincoln was killed. People tend to romanticize assassinated individuals (read Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar)).
6. Alternatively statues were put up in the 30s brcaus thats when the veterans began dying out and in the 60s because of the centennial. But in Cancel Culture we dont allow that kind of thought ch”v.
7. Thank you
8-9. Thats your point of view. According to the 1619 project everything is rooted in racism.

@frumtd i dont think you have the correct definition of cancel culture. We all agree that not every viewpoint should be promoted. But are you suggesting that the Chinese Culture Revolution was also legitimate?

akuperma
if biden sweeps the next election, america turns into Venezuela

@frumtd

Cancel Culture would be the equivalent of Mishna Brurah followers banning the Arukh Hashulhan

“i appose it for the same reason i appose people who want to destroy Auschwitz, because if we erase history we are likely to repeat it!!”

this poitn was already addressed:
should we rename Newark airport Mohamad Atah International Airport. you woudlnt want his name erased now would you?
And lets not forget a statue of John Wlkes booth

This isn’t comparable to Auschwiz. A comparison would be to a statue of Hitler in time Square (or Berlin) .

@ ubiquitin I agree. This Condoleezza Rice reason to keep monuments makes no sense and is obviously an excuse to keep monuments that they cant explain intellectually why they have a problem with it coming down. Another absurd reason is that it will be a slippery slope.

the difference is Hitler specifically stands for Nazism, George Washington and Robert E LEE don’t specifically stand for slavery, in fact Robert E Lee was against slaves, he fought for the south because he felt patriotic to them.

Schnitzel

No need for a loop

But we dont seem to have covered all bases, since oyu are repeating the same mistake.

“I will try to delve deeper in the “myth” of the Lost Cause, ”
Sure start with the beginning : namely the articles of secession of the various states

“Interestingly, there were many people in history whos day job was to be great personalities and on the side perswcuted the Jews.”

You nailed the distinction! but seem to have trouble following through.
People’s whose day job was “to be a great personality” are not comparable to the subject at hand. When you see a statue of FDR, and your kid asks “who was he” the reply isnt “Oh he’s the guiy who interned the Japanese” or “Hes the guy who didnt due enough to save the Jews” Although both of those are true. That isnt what he statue is commemorating. Ditto for the ohers

On the other hand Mussolini may have gotten the trains to run on time (as the saying goes) . nonethless it would be weird to erect a monument for him even claiming “its not about that other stuff, we are ocusing on his train orginizing skillls”

Similarly a statue of Lee, Why is it there? is it becasue of his leadership role in the confederacy? or becasue of some noble quality that he undoubtedly had eg “Making sure that they were able to take a break on Yom Tov if I remember correctly. Getting Matzah” Why is the statue there? what are they glorifying?

if the former – well as mentioned look no further than the articles of secession declaring WHY the confederacy (that he represents) existed

@ubiquitin

I would want to look at Virginia’s articles more than what a deepnsouth state would write. But regardless, what really happened isn’t so important. They’re not necessarily memorializing the truth. Even if they made up their myths on the spot to whitewash what they really fought for, I don’t think you have a right to control their thoughts. We also believe in things which social scientists think are rooted in illiberalism.

Back to the important stuff, you’re leaving a wide range between FDR and Mussolini but I get the idea.

Would you support knocking down the Arch of Titus? (And dont say History I dont care for History and I didnt care for History when ISIS destroyed the Roman temples at Palmyra/Tadmur.)

“if biden sweeps the next election, america turns into Venezuela”

Biden is the only think that will prevent Trump from turning into Venezuela. We need to permanently defeat the venal corruption and racism that Trump represents.

Trump went to Dallas last week to speak on policing. He refused to meet with the Dallas Police Chief, the Dallas County Sheriff, or the Dallas District Attorney. All three are African Americans. The message is clear.

Comments like this give ammunition to anti-Semites. You just defended Lee’s being able to own other human beings. You are to black people what Nazis are to Jews.

Shnitzel: Do you carry your argument over to skinheads who whitewashed the Holocaust and believe their denials about its occurrence?

Are you sorry that ISIS destroyed the Avoda Zora temples from 2500 years ago in Iraq? You shouldn’t be.

First we get defenses of racist slavery and now we get defenses of Islamic State.

Good thing this site doesn’t get many non-Jewish readers.

Here are some Southerners who deserve to have US military bases named after them:

Lt. Gen. Winfield Scott, from Virginia. He had served in the War of 1812 and the Mexican-American War. He is the longest serving US general officer in history, and was the commanding officer at the beginning of the Civil War. He clashed with Lincoln on many issues but it was his “Anaconda” plan that ended up winning the war for the US and defeating the rebellion. He also tried to talk then Col. Robert E. Lee out of committing treason.

Rear Admiral Samuel Phillips Lee, also from Virginia. He was third cousin to Robert E. Lee and also tried to talk Col. Lee out of committing treason. He led blockades of the South during the Civil War. His father in law, Francis Preston Blair, was a major advisor to President Lincoln. His son Blair Lee would be the first person elected to the US Senate by popular vote after the 17th Amendment, his grandson E. Brooke Lee would be Speaker of the Maryland House of Delegates, and his great grandson Blair Lee III would serve as Lt. Governor of Maryland.

Major General Montgomery C. Meigs, from Georgia. He was Quartermaster General for the entire Civil War and his ability to supply and to transport the huge Union Army huge distances via rail, water, and land was essential to the successful victory of the Union. It is an accomplishment that has gone unnoticed by too many supposed Civil War buffs but not by people who understand war. As the saying goes, amateur generals talk strategy while real generals talk logistics.

Major General George H. Thomas, from Virginia. As a child, he and his family had survived Nat Turner’s famous unsuccessful slave revolt and he became an opponent of slavery for the rest of his life. He was one of the Union’s best generals, winning the Battle of Nashville which totally destroyed what remained of the Confederate Army in the West. He never got a major command because he refused to play politics and he died a few years after the war before getting a chance to write memoirs.

Admiral David Farragut, born in Tennessee and grew up in Louisiana. One of the few loyal southerners to receive some recognition, including a now closed naval facility and a postage stamp. The town closest to his place of birth is now named for him; that part of eastern Tennessee remained loyal to the Union. He had served in the War of 1812 and the Mexican-American War. He played a major role in the Union capture of New Orleans, Port Hudson, and led the Union forces at Mobile Bay, famously shouting “Damn the torpedoes.” He was the foster brother of Admiral David Dixon Porter.

Major General Robert Anderson, from Kentucky. He had served in the Black Hawk War, where one of the people he mustered into militia service as Abraham Lincoln, and in the Mexican-American War. He is best known for having been the leader of the Union garrison at Fort Sumter when it was attacked. There had been little sentiment in favor of fighting a war against the South until the South attacked Fort Sumter without provocation; then Major Anderson’s refusal to surrender at the point of a gun made him a national hero and electrified support for fighting to preserve the Union by force. While he was promoted to be a general officer he played little further role in the Civil War because of poor health, although he did return to Charleston to raise the US flag over Fort Sumter in April 1865.

Brigadier General William Terrill, from Virginia. He was killed at the Battle of Perryville. He had two brothers who fought for the Confederacy and were killed in action.

Rear Admiral John Ancrum Winslow, from North Carolina. However, he was from an old New England family and had ancestors on the Mayflower. He is most famous for having been the Captain of the USS Kearsarge when it sank the “commerce raider” CSS Alabama off the coast of France as both French and British vessels stood by. The wreck of the Alabama was discovered in 1984. There have been several USS Winslow ships in the US Navy named in his honor.

Finally, as we are about to read Parshat Shelach this coming week, one Southern Spy deserves mention: Elizabeth Van Lew, who despite being from Richmond VA was an abolitionist prior to secession. She cared for Union POWs and helped them escape, and she had contacts in the Confederate government that fed her information about the confederate military that she conveyed, partly through escaped prisoners, to the Union leaders. She was rewarded by President Grant by being named Postmaster of Richmond for eight years and she lived to the age of 81, dying in 1900, just before Virginia took voting rights away from blacks and poor whites.

All statues should be taken down. If they can keep renaming bridges (which they do), why not keep putting up new statues? New people to make statues of are born faster than new pedestals are made.

Charlie cries over the destruction of the Avoda Zora temples in Iraq while calling for the destruction of statues of white Americans.

@rebyidd23
What would be the point of putting up statues of new people if they would only last twenty years when they will be knocked down to make way for the next generation’s statues?

Shnitzel: You haven’t addressed my response to you in Post #1871328.

Schnitzel

“Rav belsky allowed reading the Odyssey too?”

I didn’t ask specifically, his answer didn’t address arayos, just the Avoda Zarah aspect