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Doing, great description of learning.. I wish we had a way to Quantify that description. Some sort of a standardized test that measures the learning itself or even effect of the learning on the cognitive abilities in general. This would be a great thing to demonstrate to others and also of help to the learners themselves. For example, you can do a practice sat test and see evaluation in different skills
gornisht,
Sorry to burst your pollyannish little bubble but bumper stickers don’t convey an accurate picture. One prominent Rosh Yeshiva said that the charedim owe no more gratitude to the IDF than they do to garbage collectors. Another said that children should not say tehillim for soldiers.
The truth may hurt but blatantly lying makes you no better than the anti-Semites protesting at Columbia and other universities. For shame!
AAQ; Limud Torah isn’t limited to abilities. A masmid who spends his whole day learning, every day, and it takes him one full month to master one pasuk in Bereishis — even before getting to Rashi — is just as entitled to dedicate his life to full time Limud Torah as the next masmid who masters a new Mesechta — with Rashi, Tosfos and all the Meforshim — every month.
And both the aforementioned masmidim ‘s Limud Torah are equally effective at protecting every Jew across the world from any harm.
Yotze Dofen,
Truth is apparently not your strong point, or possibly comprehension.
Do not be proud to misrepresent or misquote.
I am telling you what I see on the ground here.
You are like the people at Columbia. As Bob Grant used to say, fake, phony, fraud.
> isn’t limited to abilities.
R Aha b Yaakov, I think, had a different opinion. He sent his son to learn for a year, then tested him, and left the son to work the fields, and he went himself …
You are also hijacking the word “Limud Torah” and same in English “learning” to become a synonym for “not working”. Shuls used to have groups doing tehilim/learning mishna/learning gemora, you choose the one you fit in. In our times, one can work and afford ArtScroll or simply use sefaria and YWN to learn after work. With work from home, you can take 15 minutes out of each hour to work and learn for 16 hours and have 20 hours a week job.
Are you saying that anyone who is willing to sit in beis medrash or thereabout whole day without much effect on the learning and middos is deserving community support, army exemption, etc? I would agree, provided full agreement by the providers. Possibly parents or in-laws could do that, and it is great, but I don’t think Israeli taxpayers do.
AAQ: I don’t know who he is or, better, who he is to disagree with Chazal. And whether he “had a different opinion” or not, no one else is subject to follow his “different opinion”.
I am not focusing on community support; in fact I made no mention or reference to it. explicit or implicit, in my earlier comments. But since you raised it now, there’s no reason I see why the community might choose to not support both the hypothetical aforementioned masmidim I described.
Regarding army service or kollel service, which in your eyes you disingenuously equate, and in fact explicitly refer to above, as simply “not working”, absolutely. Chazal are abundantly clear that in regards to Limud Torah effort is all that counts. Ben Torah #1, who as described above, spends his whole day learning and it takes him one full month to master one pasuk in Bereishis puts in 9 hours a day swaeting over his Chumash, every day, until he finally finishes one pasuk after a month. Compared to Ben Torah #2, who masters a new Mesechta with Rashi, Tosfos and all the Meforshim every month, but let’s say he “only” learns 5 hours a day, and for him its all a breeze as Shas and Meforshim come easily to him even without much effort, so he takes some extra coffee breaks and shmoozes more than Ben Torah #1 (the one who does a pasuk a month). Then Ben Torah #1 is much more worthy than Ben Torah #2 (with his mastering a new mesechta each month) and Ben Torah #1 is most definitely more worthy (than Ben Torah #2) to be in the Beis Medrash full time each day, with no army service, or as you would put it “not working”, and Ben Torah #1 is doing far more to protect every Jew in Eretz Yisroel (and elsewhere) than Ben Torah #2 (who is also doing a lot for Klal Yisroel.)
If I could only support one of the above, my check will definitely be going to Ben Torah #1. And if I could only choose one whose learning will be a Zchus for my family’s safety, it would also be Ben Torah #1.
gornisht,
The quotes I noted may be found online. The truth may hurt but blatantly lying makes you no better than the anti-Semites protesting at Columbia and other universities. For shame!
AAQ: I don’t know who he is or, better, who he is to disagree with Chazal. And whether he “had a different opinion” or not, no one else is subject to follow his “different opinion”.
I am not focusing on community support; in fact I made no mention or reference to it. explicit or implicit, in my earlier comments. But since you raised it now, there’s no reason I see why the community might choose to not support both the hypothetical aforementioned masmidim I described.
Regarding army service or kollel service, which in your eyes you disingenuously equate, and in fact explicitly refer to above, as simply “not working”, absolutely. Chazal are abundantly clear that in regards to Limud Torah effort is all that counts. Ben Torah #1, who as described above, spends his whole day learning and it takes him one full month to master one pasuk in Bereishis puts in 9 hours a day swaeting over his Chumash, every day, until he finally finishes one pasuk after a month. Compared to Ben Torah #2, who masters a new Mesechta with Rashi, Tosfos and all the Meforshim every month, but let’s say he “only” learns 5 hours a day, and for him its all a breeze as Shas and Meforshim come easily to him even without much effort, so he takes some extra coffee breaks and shmoozes more than Ben Torah #1 (the one who does a pasuk a month). Then Ben Torah #1 is much more worthy than Ben Torah #2 (with his mastering a new mesechta each month) and Ben Torah #1 is most definitely more worthy (than Ben Torah #2) to be in the Beis Medrash full time each day, with no army service, or as you would put it “not working”, and Ben Torah #1 is doing far more to protect every Jew in Eretz Yisroel (and elsewhere) than Ben Torah #2 (who is also doing a lot for Klal Yisroel.)
If I could only support one of the above, my check will definitely be going to Ben Torah #1. And if I could only choose one whose learning will be a Zchus for my family’s safety, it would also be Ben Torah #1.
ujm zogt twice> I don’t know who he is or, better, who he is to disagree with Chazal.
He wrote Torah once – and in a better shape than all Torahs written by his teacher R Huna .. He can also be found in Kiddushin 29 in support of argument between chachamim who thinks a person’s learning has precedence over his son and R Yehudah who thinks a son with an active mind (zariz) and whose Torah will endure has precedence. His story proves that the father should not work overtime to pay tuition for his less sharp children. So, sharpness and endurance are confirmed as factors in learning precedence. And of course, none of them suggested for both father & son to go learn and get supported by a combination of taxes and miracles.
As to your list of Bnei Torah, I am very happy to see anyone sitting and learning as long as he figured out how to do it in an ehrliche way – whether use his inheritance, or to eat and drink less, or to have a willing shver or eshes chail or an Issachar. If US government announces tomorrow that they will support all Torah learners should be paid life-long fellowships and this system is accepted by population, I might sit and learn full time myself. I would probably convince the sponsors that research in AI is an extension is included as an extension of Gemora sevora so that I continue doing some of my research also 🙂
UJM-I think you are confusing the issues. Your point about effort is true but only in regards to heavenly reward. Of course that is what will last for all eternity but that is a level that only G-D can judge and only G-D can reward. We have no way of becoming celestial accountants. Once we dip into that perhaps we should also give army exemptions to any Jew who will receive tremendous heavenly reward. What about someone who was raised secular and with superhuman strength becomes a shomer shabbos? Should his spiritual accomplishment translate into an army exemption?
We live in a world of reality where people need to work for a living and establish a functioning society. Like it or not, hishtadlus is still needed in all areas of life and society. As a society we need to come to an agreement on how we will function. I don’t think there is or ever was a single gadol that advocated for disbanding the army and said that no Jews should ever work for a living (including RaSHBI). There needs to be civil discourse and it is very possible that concessions will need to be made.
“UJM-I think you are confusing the issues. Your point about effort is true but only in regards to heavenly reward.”
Rocky: What basis do you have to say it is only applicable regarding “heavenly reward” and that it is inapplicable otherwise? Where do you see such a differentiation in the seforim hakedoshim? Please provide such sources.
Without addressing the question posed in this conversation, I had another question. What percentage of serving IDF soldiers, sailors and airmen are Da’ati?
UJM-My point exactly. The crux of the issues we are discussing is how to structure a system of army exemption. Israel is not currently a theocracy in which we will be able to create laws based on pesukim or statements of chazal. The value of ones learning, mitzvos, level of yiras shomayim etc. is totally irrelevant to this entire discussion. When eventually the entire country becomes shomrei Torah U mitzvos we can then start a whole new thread to discuss based on halacha who should be sent to war and in what capacity.
The issue now is how to handle the situation, given the facts on the ground and the history behind them. I believe these are some of the issues that come into play but please feel free to add or disagree with any of them
1) The country needs an army to exist. This is basic hishtadlus in pre-messianic times
2) The country is made up of a majority of people who either do not view Torah learning as a valid form of protecting the country or would like to see even those learning full-time contribute in some physical way (non-spritual) to the defense of the country
3) The current concept of exemption for full-time learners (i.e the status quo) was created as half-hearted concession at a time when the situation was totally different than today (400 vs 66,000)
4) There is no way of knowing numbers, but there are many chareidim who are gaming the system and not really learning full time but still take advantage of exemptions
5) There are many in the general Israeli population who have grown angrier and angrier at the Chareidi population because of issues 2,3 & 4 and also because of the money given to yeshivas. The war has exacerbated this anger and the PR response from the charedim has not helped.
Understandably, as more soldiers are killed or wounded, more children of soldiers are left orphaned, these feelings of resentment grow. Even soldiers who return alive, many have put their businesses and lives on hold and thousands have psychological scars. Everyone has friends or neighbors whose lives will never be the same.
If the response to these people (who like it or not are in power) is quoting chazal and calling people heretics if they don’t appreciate what you are doing does not seem to be an effective way of improving the situation. Refusing to negotiate in any way will only last for a short time.
So getting back to the topic of the OP, it seems like the chareidi world could use a much better PR system and if that means cutting short the vacation time (which is much longer than the rest of the working population), might be a good start. Even a well placed “thank you” would go a long way
Mnay within this same majority are resentful of the chareidim
Rocky,
it is perfectly legit and reasonable to first articulate what is an ideal halachik position, and then consider compromises with others (imperfect phrasing, as compromising with others should be done under halachik guidelines too, of course). So, presume majority of knesset members are shomer shabbat and baalei halakha – what should they do?If they decide that talmidei chachamim need to be excluded, I would think they’ll define criteria (and maybe timeframes). I doubt these criteria will be based on headwear, or who your zeidi was. Rabbi in Bava Basra asks poor people what they learned to give them food during a drought (and his students refuses to answer). It would probably be a higher bar to get this privilege. So, maybe a monthly test on what you learned?
Rocky:
Israel is not currently a theocracy in which we will be able to create laws based on pesukim or statements of chazal.
Which is wrong. It should be a Jewish theocracy. We don’t dismiss the wrongdoings against Jews by Czarist Russia or the Soviet Union because it isn’t a theocracy or a Jewish state. Neither should we dismiss the wrongdoings of the non-Jewish zionist entity simply because it isn’t a theocracy.
1) The country needs an army to exist.
Chareidim didn’t ask for this country. We lived in Eretz Yisroel before the zionists and before their state. The zionists created this disaster of a state that now has been under constant unending attacks for 75+ years. They need to deal with the mess they made.
2) The country is made up of a majority of people who either do not view Torah learning as a valid form of protecting the country
And they are dead wrong. There is no reason to change our position and the truth simply because the majority of people have a wrongheaded and incorrect view.
3) The current concept of exemption for full-time learners (i.e the status quo) was created as half-hearted concession at a time when the situation was totally different than today (400 vs 66,000)
There’s no reason to reduce what so-called “concession”; indeed, there’s every reason to increase and enlarge than “concession”.
4) There is no way of knowing numbers, but there are many chareidim who are gaming the system and not really learning full time but still take advantage of exemptions
Baruch Hashem for that. No Chareidi should be in the army. Even if they are a full time baal haboss working full-time. Let them find every loophole that works, even not as designed, to avoid an army full of pritzus.
5) There are many in the general Israeli population who have grown angrier and angrier at the Chareidi population because of issues 2,3 & 4 and also because of the money given to yeshivas. The war has exacerbated this anger and the PR response from the charedim has not helped.
5) There are many in the Chareidi population who have grown angrier and angrier at the Chiloni population because of the answers given to issues 2,3 & 4 and also because of the money given to Israeli universities and sports leagues. The Chiloni hate-mongering has exacerbated this anger and the PR response from the Chilonim has not helped.
Refusing to negotiate in any way will only last for a short time.
There’s nothing to negotiate. If they want to impose a non-negotiated draft against Bnei Yeshiva, they should start building new prisons to house tens of thousands of Yeshivaleit who will become draft-dodgers who will choose prison over the zionist army.
if that means cutting short the vacation time (which is much longer than the rest of the working population), might be a good start.
Sure. Cut back vacation time of soldiers.
Even a well placed “thank you” would go a long way
The Bnei Torah have long been waiting for that “thank you” from the chilonim. It would, indeed, be a good start.
Mnay within this same majority are resentful of the chareidim
A majority of the world is antisemitic; are you suggesting we accommodate their antisemitism since they are a majority? A plurality of the world is Christian; are you suggesting Yidden accommodate Christian minhagim?
With this attitude, whether you are right or wrong, you should simply try to distance yourself from those you do not want to be brothers with.
If you don’t like to live under Zionist regime, you are free to move to Islamic enclaves where you can live your dream-life as a dhimmi, who are not required to serve in the Muslim army. If you prefer not to move for whatever reason, you should similarly accept dina d’malchusa with whatever laws they make. If you prefer to be in prison, fine. Although if many will do it, they might be simply shipped out to PA, so you may as well do it on your own.If you don’t like to live under Zionist regime, you are free to move to Islamic enclaves
Chareidim have been in Eretz Yisroel long before the Zionists, Zionism and their State. Indeed, long before Zionism even existed. And Chareidim will remain in Eretz Yisroel long after Zionism, and their State, is gone.
We lived under the Ottoman and British regimes so we can live under the Zionists regime — until they go the way of the Ottoman Empire and British Empire.
The Zionists are, of course, free to move out to Uganda — their first choice for a State.
Charedim didn’t live under Ottomans, Jews did. None of them dressed like modern Charedim. And they were supported by other jews who volunteered to support them. They worked when they were allowed to. Newcomers charedim started demanding money from the government and are now endangering good relationships with the malchus that was indeed established over centuries.
Chareidim have been around since, either, Avrohom Avinu or Moshe Rabbeinu; depending whether you start counting from pre-Matan Torah or post-Matan Torah.
What is today called Chareidism is what used to be called Judaism; much as what is today called Orthodoxy is what used to be called Judaism. They are simply the default Judaism that never broke away. When the Reform broke off, the new movement called the original Judaism — Orthodox; when the MO broke into their own movement, they called the original Judaism — UO/Chareidi.
Clothing don’t make the man; I have no idea why you are harping on how who dressed when, when attempting to make artificial distinctions between how Jews dressed before the Reform and/or MO versus thereafter. Clothing changes over time; that has nothing to do with the practice of Judaism.
That being said, what absolutely is true is that Jews dress as Jews, even if what it means to dress as a Jew may change with time. Practicing, observant , Jews do not dress as the Gentiles. Just as the Navy uniform was different 200 years ago from 100 years ago, and again 100 years ago from today, doesn’t mean that they aren’t the same Navy. If a Sailor today decided to toss today’s Navy uniform for that of what the Navy wore 100 years ago or 200 years ago, it won’t help his defense at his court martial when he defends himself saying he was wearing the original Navy uniform.
A Jew, too, needs to dress in the uniform of the Jew today.
And with that, let’s conclude by pointing out that the mode of dress of Chareidim such as the Vilna Gaon and his Talmidim who settled in Ottoman Palestine as well as Chareidim such as the Talmidim of the Baal Shem Tov who settled in Ottoman Palestine, (all of whom continued their presence in Eretz Yisroel into the British period and the Zionist period) as well as how Chareidim like Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld dressed both in the Ottoman period and in the British period, are easily recognizable and comparable as how Chareidim dress today during the Zionist period.
Pls keep reform out of this discussion, this is a misdirection. Many charedi takanot that protect people from improper influences have good social reasons behind them, but this is not we are talking about.
I’ve seen lots of photos of observant Jews from Lithuania to Iraq. Most of them dressed similarly to their gentile neighbors. In some cases, they are dressed more on respectable side. Sephardi “gedolim” sometimes dressed more extravagant, but these were individuals. Most of people worked in whatever jobs they were able to obtain under restrictions imposed on us. Volozhin yeshiva had 400 students. Most Yidden did not expect other Yidden to pay for their learning and did not collect from non-Jewish welfare funds.
AAQ,,
Please stop trying to confuse Joseph with the facts. Everyone knows that Moshe Rabbeinu wore a shtreimel.
GadolHadofi> stop trying to confuse Joseph with the facts.
Thanks for your concern for the maeha, but I don’t think I am overwhelming him. He has koyach to stand up and ignore any adverse facts.
> Moshe Rabbeinu wore a shtreimel.
Jews have no problem changing their clothes. Just look at sephardi youth in Lakewood and other towns – they wear black cylinders and fully abandoned their traditional turbans and kefyiahs (which may be a good decision in current political environment). Why are they so quick to abandon their traditions? And why are their Ashkenazi bruders not telling them to keep their indigenous traditions? An Iraqi dresssing up as a Litvish is as funny as a Yekke dressing up as a Ungarishe.
“Jews have no problem changing their clothes. Just look at sephardi youth in Lakewood and other towns – they wear black cylinders and fully abandoned their traditional turbans and kefyiahs (which may be a good decision in current political environment). Why are they so quick to abandon their traditions? And why are their Ashkenazi bruders not telling them to keep their indigenous traditions? An Iraqi dresssing up as a Litvish is as funny as a Yekke dressing up as a Ungarishe.”
AAQ: Why aren’t you as concerned as above, and as vocal as above, regarding the other Sefardim who have, as you put it, abandoned their traditional turbans and instead walk around without any kind of hat altogether. Better to swap one kind of hat (i.e. a turban) for another kind of hat (i.e. a fedora), which you protest, than to abandon a head covering (i.e. a turban) for nothing at all, leaving their head mainly unhatted — something you do not protest.
And on the same token, why your failure to protest the Modern Orthodox running around hatless (and often jacketless, as well), having abandoned their traditional (what you refer to as) black cylinders that their grandparents, great-grandparents and earlier all used to cover their heads.
Ujm, Sorry, didn’t reply to your post before. On those who walk bareheaded, I am all for helping them out and I am all for organizations and individuals who help them. I don’t think berating them would work.
As for fedora, my family minhag is to dress up like respectful members of current society, so I have no problem with others doing the same. My great greatzeidi dressed like a Vienna businessman, and I dress as a Midwestern businessman and it is all fine.
Re: mashgiach. So those here who sucked us into endless discussions about talmidei chachamim requiring exemptions do not agree with the esteemed rav, who clearly articulates that this is a social position for the whole charedi community.
Clearly Rav AL Shteinman zt”l agreed that some young men would be better off in the army and that is why he backed the creation of Nachal Chareidi. Perhaps Rav Segal disagrees with Rav Shteinman? Apparently there is no consensus among the gedolim that anyone who claims to be a chareidi should be exempt.
I wonder if anyone has asked the “anti-draft Gedolim” the question “If Chareidim would constitute the overwhelming majority of the population, should there still be a draft? At what point do we say the Chareidim have overtaken the country and it is time to contribute to its defense in a physical way?”
Rocky: That’s a complete falsehood. Rav Shteinman was OPPOSED for any normal person to join the so-called Nachal Hareidi or any other part of the IDF. He was ONLY in favor of a Mechallel Shabbos who would otherwise be on the streets to join Nachal if that was the lesser of the two evils.
See:
Recently Released Letter By Maran HaRav SHteinman To Hagon HaRav Don Segal Regarding Nachal Charedi
Ok, so propose a law that anyone who is mechalel major mitzvos – shabbos, arayos, geneiva, spilling blood by insulting people, standing idle by his brother’s blood, etc should be drafted. This should get majority of the knesses behind it.
AAQ: Joining the Nachal Hareidi is the greater evil compared to geneiva. Rav Shteinman clearly and explicitly wrote that even bochorim who are weak in Yiras Shomayim should NOT join Nachal Hareidi, since the IDF is much worse.
Only “bochurim who are mechallelei Shabbos and actually committing other grave transgressions for which the punishment is kareis” can be possibly considered to join Nachal Hareidi or the IDF if the “father wants to save the boy and to save the street from enduring damage that we do not have the power to withhold him.”
“But for sure it is an unforgivable sin if he were to persuade or entice in any possible way which might cause anyone who is not a mechallel Shabbos or committing other chayivei kerisos to be placed there” in Nachal Hareidi or the IDF.
Above quotations are Rav Ahron Leib Shteinman’s own words.
OK, so propose a law that sends to the Army those who R’L deserve kares – mechalal shabbat, worship AZ, eat blood, eat chametz on Pesach,, arayos, eat chelev, eat on YK, as well as I presume arba misos Beis din: bestiality/homosexuality/not listening to parents.
I would add specifically that geneiva is not sufficient, you will still be protecting Am Yisroel thru your learning as long as your levush is appropriate.
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