Cancel Bein HaZemanim

I had the same question, but the roshei yeshiva know better. Despite the danger of the government drafting bochurim, the terrorists….they still said bein hazmanim should stay in place.

Maybe the cheshbon is that without it, the bochurim won’t be learning flasig anyways. It might be proper, but maybe they’re not ready for that kind of sacrifice, which might harm their learning next zman.

The bochurim who are real bnai Aliyah prepare to have chavrusa for BZ and learn solid.

I guess for those who claim that learning is a substitute for fighting, it is a hard question … maybe either students can learn on their own, or go do food deliveries to the army during the break.

Wow, Joe ticking off a mod with nivul peh!

I wouldn’t have expected any different

The OP is a less than zero to publicly berate the Gedolei Roshei HaYeshivos and to give them instructions on how to run their Yeshivos. Does he seriously think the Gedolei Roshei HaYeshivos didn’t ever think of his brainstorm?

It would have been half an issue if he suggested this to the Gedolei Roshei HaYeshivos privately; but who the blazes does he think he is to give a public reprimand or even public collective advice to them on how to conduct their Yeshivos?

Now let’s have the Zionist army reduce time off for all soldiers, secular or not, and have them all spend 20% of their off time in a Yeshiva. Rather than trying to change the less than 10% of the people on how much learning they need to increase, when they’re already dedicating their lives for years of dedicated full time Limud Torah, work on the over 90% who spend zero time on Limud Torah to give an hour a day or even two weeks a year dedicated to Torah.

Mod, you touched on my biggest concern – that the current state of affairs confuses our values:

Various groups defend their derech by insisting that Torah and their derech is one and the same. This is not necessarily said by the leaders, but it becomes part of the group mentality. And then questioning the derech becomes associated with questioning the Torah. Something that Adam & Have got confused with the tree … In this case – surely, you can read in my post above that I am quoting Netziv’s personal view that it is impossible to go on vacation from learning. And surely I am quoting learning of others in many places. And maybe it is harder to see, but I can assure you that my concern about people approaching Torah with incorrect (in my view) values is out of concern for the Torah and Torah learning. In this case, I replied to you as you statement sounded like making fun of people engaged in mitzvos, as doctors surely are for working too hard. What is next – making fun of Satmar from spending time in the hospitals? (and I confirmed w/ a Lakewood rov that doctors who have right attitudes are indeed engaged in chesed, no less than those who are doing chesed without having a medical job).

Back during the Yom Kippur War, Rav Chaim Shmulevitz zt”l said bein hazmanim should be canceled. Rav Shach zt”l argued and said that bitulo hu kiyumo. Rabbi Gershon Ribner shlita mentioned this a few months ago. So it’s an old machlokes.

Most yeshivos don’t have a month. And even if it’s a month, that includes a week and a half of pesach so it’s not a month off. And during the zman theyre in yeshiva 7 days a week. I can say that my sons learns almost as much being hazmanim as during the zman. He learns a full first and night seder and depending on how much help I need for the afternoon.
The boys need a break. They need to be home. The men too, they need to be around their families.

Somcha613,
I know you, and others mean well, but neither armies of military soldiers or learning soldiers have any guarantee of protective value. From recent times ( Holocaust, pogroms ) to ancient times ( Menashe, Herod and the Romans slaughtering thousands of chachomim and tens of thousands of other Jews) and times in between ( Crusader massacres, blood libel massacres, Inquisition, forced conversions ) learning hasn’t protected us. There are those who say that there were other events that learning prevented. Even if true, they couldn’t have been much worse than those that did.

Rather than acknowledge a kasha and seek a terutz, you just conclude that chazal were acceptable when they give you the history but not acceptable when they say repeatedly that Torah protects us.

What is meant on a simple level is that Torah gives us a kiyum,an existence, which is a huge miracle, while among hostile nations. The fact that we haven’t been wiped out despite attempts by everyone in every generation is a bigger neis than krias yam suf, says rav yaakov emden.

When R Grozdensky was asked in 1940 Vilna who should use Sugihara visas – older T’Ch who would be first targets of upcoming occupation or younger ones whose children will be taken to anti-religious schools, he suggested – older ones because (1) they’ll be more useful to American Jews (2) they’ll be in a better position to help politically to those who remain. He did not suggest to simply sit down and learn better.

>> Gemorah says one of the reasons

Preposterous to quote chazal’s “one of the reasons”. R Eliezer said about some people that they should not be taught Gemora so that they do not use it for shtuyos.

Yeshivos and Kollelim can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that you are the REAL protection for the country and then abandon your post for an entire month. Does that mean than if anyone is CV killed during bein Hazmanim that the Bnei Yeshivos will take the blame?

Those who are arguing that everyone needs a break is OK up until the point of comparing it to the rest of the world. How many other professions (other than teaching) give 10 weeks of vacation a year? Do the chayalim get that much vacation?

AAQ: Why do you think that citing an open Chazal in the Gemorah is “shtuyos”? Just because you disagree with that Chazal doesn’t make is shtuyos.

“Wouldn’t that also send a message to the chilonim that the Bnei Yeshivos are taking this war (and sharing the burden) seriously?”

Let the chilonim first send a message to the Torah community that they are taking this war seriously and sharing the burden by spending some time in the Beis Medrash.

Then we can talk.

UJM_your logic highlights one major flaw in the message put out by the Chareidi world. Just because you have a certain belief and appreciation of the Torah, having an elitist and disconnected mentality will not draw the other person closer to your way of thinking. Your argument goes something like

“Why don’t the chilonom appreciate our Torah.? Don’t they know that Torah holds up the world?!
No, they don’t. They value learning gemara as much as a college student studying ancient Latin texts. Imagine one of these discussions.

Reuven: My brother, who was a father of five, was just killed in the war, and his children will grow up orphans. My neighbors have similar tragedies. Shimon, why do you think you are better than us, and why can’t you also fight?”

Shimon: “Me fight? Soldiers are losers. Don’t you know that I study Latin! Try it sometime and you will see how difficult it is. ”

Reuven: “Maybe you can cut down on your extended vacation time and contribute in some way to the wat effort or at least show some appreciation to those who are laying down their lives for you?”

Shimon: Me show appreciation? You should appreciate how much Latin I study!. Latin students are so rare we need more of us!” Don’t you dare consider cutting off our funding1 The study of Latin is holding up the world!

Joseph,

According to you, the secular Israeli’s who are fighting, bleeding and dying to defend Jews against bloodthirsty terrorists have no right to be critical of the charedim who are not doing so. They should somehow realize that their efforts are really accomplishing nothing and only the charedim’s learning is worth anything, despite their taking this entire month off. Efforts to raise consciousness about the hostages, such as posting signs and writing letters should be mocked. In addition, the state of Israel is a bastard and there have never been any miracles in the wars since 1948 since according to the Satmar Rebbe, zt”l, a da’as yachid, it’s all the work of the Statan.

Your twisted logic, unfortunately shared by so many of your myopic ilk, highlights why the charedim are reviled as parasites by so many in Israel. You must be very proud.

Dofi: According to you, the Chareidim who are dedicated their entire lives, morning, noon and nights learning Torah Hakedosha every day, to defend Jews against bloodthirsty terrorists have no right to be critical of the chilonim who are not doing so. They should somehow realize that their efforts are really accomplishing nothing and only the chilonim’s army service is worth anything, despite their taking time off duty and going on furlough.

Rocky: Please correct me if I am wrong but you seem to imply that —

1) Limud Torah is just a silly invention like studying Egyptology created by the Chareidim to dodge the draft and is not really necessary at all since the people who are in the army are all the protection we need

2) The Chilonim owe zero hakoras hatov to those who dedicate their lives to Limud Torah because they had no business becoming full time masmidim anyways (refer to point #1)

3) Having a full Kollel is not really a form of hishtadlus or at best it is overkill. After all who needs more than one security guard to protect a bank vault or more than one person to study Egyptology?

4) Jews learning in Kollel is just some 20th-century Chareidi creation. We do not see anywhere in Jewish history that Jews learn Torah so much. And if they did they were bad people who should have been in the Czar’s Army or whichever Army that was protecting the country they were living in.

From what I understand, the army has mostly left Gaza. That means that they are mostly not fighting. Why? I don’t know, I guess they have a cheshbon why in the long run it’s better if there is a break in the fighting. Same goes for Bein Hazmanim. Get it? It just don’t work uddawise.
And besides, your average bochur is learning everyday for multiple hours, and many Yungerleit are learning for the majority of the day, just in a more relaxed setting.

Also, many people seem to think that learning Torah is basically sitting in a chair reading all day, and you don’t even have to read the whole time because your chavrusa reads for half the time, you can just sit and listen! Let me tell you, you have no idea what learning is. When I was in Oorah, I remember the guys in the college aged program coming out of the bais medrash after just an hour of serious learning and talking among themselves about how their energy was completely sapped and there is no way they could do that full time. The amount of thinking being done straight for long periods of time is not comparable to almost anything in the world.
Not that I’m comparing the hardship of learning to facing and risking death in a Hamas tunnel, but don’t think chareidim are a bunch of couch potatoes.

And for the complaints about Chareidi messaging; well I’m sorry, but we just don’t have anything better to say than that Torah protects everybody in a real and serious way. If someone doesn’t understand that, “ein hachah nami”, there is nothing for us to say. That’s what our fathers passed down through the generations, going all the way back to Sinai. If you don’t believe in our Mesorah then you are plain and simple lost. A gutten tog.

Doing,

“we just don’t have anything better to say than that Torah protects everybody in a real and serious way”

A bit of heartfelt gratitude to those who fight might allow that message to penetrate. Instead, too many charedi leaders publicly declare that the solders’ sacrifices are worthless and that Tehillim shouldn’t even be recited for them.