Can we have an adult conversation about education?

This is what you posted and we are suppose to take you seriously?

I am a Roman Catholic. No, no, I do not believe that Jesus was our savior nor do I believe him to be the son of God. I certainly do not believe in the Holy Ghost and, to be honest, I am not really sure what that even is. But believe me (as our President is want to say) I am a Catholic.

Don’t get me wrong, I have never stepped into a church, I did not attend Sunday school, I know very, very little about the New Testament and if you asked me what mass was, I’d probably tell you it is the property of matter that measures its resistance to acceleration. But I call myself a Roman catholic so a Roman Catholic I am.

My father was not a Roman Catholic and neither was my mother but I was converted by a Roman Catholic who shares my views of our religion. Truth is, to me being Roman Catholic means being a good person and having Catholic values (because, after all, we all know that Muslims, Jews and them awful Baptists do not believe in being a good person or changing the world for the better).

As I do not know or care for the Catholic rights, I don’t have rosemary beads and think they’re silly, Hail Mary is what I like to see at the end of a football game and again, I don’t believe in Jesus, I have developed a new form of Catholic prayer. It entails, wearing a pasta strainer on my head (I borrowed that one from the Pastafarians) and wearing speedos and chanting the lyrics to any song by Abba. This is how I, as a Catholic, like to perform the prayer service. Now, truth be told, I conduct my services maybe once a year but as a Catholic, I demand that the Holy See set aside a space for me at the Vatican to conduct my mass every 15th of the month and on Christmas and Easter, too. The refusal by the Church to cede to my requests shows great intolerance on the part of the Church and I will stop donating money to the Archdioceses and instead of telling people I meet how nice Catholics are, I will encourage them to spread lies about the Catholic people all over the world.

And that is the Reform argument to pray at the Kotel.

OP/Besalel:

1. You must completely separate the discussion of education pertaining to Limudei Kodesh from secular studies. Some/many parents, may desire — fully within their rights — to forgoe any secular education and focus entirely on Limudei Kodesh and on being a Ben Torah, Yid and mentsch with stellar middos.

This is not only their natural right, but it is a highly commendable choice. Even if you disagree with the parents.

2. To answer your OP, Torah education has not declined with time over the last 75 years. Au contraire. It has markedly improved.

3. Those spending 50% of their income on their children’s education are clearly and absolutely focusing on their second education. To the detriment of their Torah education, I might add, as the secular is then occupying a significant amount of the child’s limited time per day.

No one needs to spend remotely nearly 50% of their income of their children’s Torah education.

4. Not every of what you call “kosher fields” is as kosher as you may think. Some are less kosher than others, even if not outright forbidden. There is very good reason to educate one’s children to the exclusion of gaining a taste or ability to choose a less kosher line of work environment over a more kosher/Jewish field.

@ besalel No.
@ ADA Delay and obfuscate.
@ common Irrelevant.
@ Gadol There is a legitimate argument for providing basic skills in primary school and either an apprenticeship or technical program to learn a trade.
@ ADA This isn’t about CRT, gender studies, or whatever boogyman talk radio is babbling about. It’s isn’t even about hours of instruction or covering basic materials. The real “threat to Jewish education” that the yeshiva education establishment will fight tooth and nail to prevent are minimum qualifications for teachers. Increasingly, yeshivos are relying on seminary graduates and retirees to teach secular classes on a part time or “temporary” basis.

Ym, marx – learn Jewish history; whenever the government tries to tell us how to do anything, it doesn’t end well. It wouldn’t have ended well if this was 20 years ago when things were relatively sane, because it would bring in anti Torah values into our schools and our children’s minds.

It’s not “fear mongering” – what’s to stop the government from saying that substantial equivalency requires a robust education in gender studies and tolerance of LGBT? They pump the kids full of this stuff in public school.

Give it 2 years – first it’s “basic English” then it’s “on grade level”, until they mandate that we spend just as much time on secular studies as public schools, including mandatory gym classes, music, etc…then give it 3 more years and after they will have reduced yeshivos into after-school talmud torahs, they will force us to have the full gamut of gender and LGBT in our class.

They will abolish dress codes, as they are gender constrictive; tznius is a violation of “children’s rights” (a movement which wants to limit parent’s abilities to educate their children religiously)

This is what’s happening in public schools.

The hate speech in the NYT and the gezeros on chinuch should spur us only to reach inward and see how we can improve our chinuch – in limudei kodesh! My rebbe rav belsky said during the gezeros on metzitzah b’peh, that it’s just like by chanukah, when the cohanim had become complacent in their avodah… Hashem then threatened the avodah and Torah altogether. By milah, rav belsky said that younger mohalim give a small peck to be yotzei zayn, and don’t treat the mitzvah carefully.

When chinuch is threatened, it’s a sign that we’re not doing enough of it.

I haven’t noticed any comments about the fact that the yeshivas take government money or the possibility that parents could possibly be charged with educational neglect for not providing a minimal secular education.

My secular neighbor sends her two daughters to public school. She gave my wife and I a long talk about how the yeshiva system is failing so many boys, and how they would have no opportunities for parnassa. Many off hand comments about how we were disadvantaging our boys.

Years later her eldest daughter (12) is dressing like a boy and lecturing her family about gender ideology and oppression of these new neo“minorities”.

She expressed to my wife how distraught she was and explained how pervasive this narrative is in what used to be a very esteemed public school.

All I could do is smile.

The Supreme Court of the United States has ruled that parents have the right to stop all education after eighth grade.

besalel
Participant
Q: “Are we ok with the state of education in our yeshivos?”
Generally speaking, yes. We are successfully meeting the critical needs of the vast majority of children.

Q: “Do we believe that there has been a decline in the quality of the education? Or …”
Perhaps Torah learned “al yeday hdchak” was better. Otherwise, no. In fact, as others have pointed out, both delivery and retention of our education have improved.

Q “Are we comfortable with the sight of too many our brethren struggle to string together coherent sentences in English”
The vast majority of your “brethren” speak English well, primarily because their parents have decided that English should be their first language – or at the very least, speak English at home.
You demean those who speak Yiddish to their children, and frankly, that is not very enlightening.
In addition, this is not a legal or even a societal issue. According to US law, English is not an official language of the United States. Instead of being proud of your Jewish heritage and the rich Yiddish culture, you live in shame.

Q: Do we want our children to be able to express themselves in written and spoken word? Are they given these tools in school?
See above.

Q :Do we not want every one of our children to work in any kosher field they choose – even those that require an advanced education and degree?
Personally, I would be happy with them working in the frum community, while having an income that allows them to spend time with their family and learning.

Q: “Or am I the crazy one? Is everything perfectly fine? Is there a problem here – at all – that needs to be addressed?”
You’re not crazy, you’ve become “Americanized” and your values are not what they should be.

Marx, it’s not multi cultural. It’s about respecting daas torah, whether that be the satmar rov, or rav moshe feinstein. Chasidishe gedolim were the architects for their communities. They are entitled to their opinions. They held that English should he kept at a minimum. They’re successful, and they are not harming any other part of klal yisroel in their ways – chasidim support many needy litvishe yidden, especially in eretz yisroel.

The Times’ piece was anything but accurate. They interviewed drug addicts, drop outs, and the most nebach people they could find. They didn’t interview a single average chasidishe businessman – that’s where they mostly go. And they’re very, very successful in business. They’re also very creative; Hamodia had a three-week series in their magazine showing the success of the heimish world in business, skilled labor and other parnosa fields.

The article did not mention the strong family structure, low crime, drug and unemployment rates, or anything else which shows the success of the education system. It’s a different kind of success, it’s not designed to produce accountants.

You’ve bought into actual sinas chinom – not the fake seenat chinam that the modern world dreams up, but real, bona fide baseless hatred of another jew.

I’m referring to the former students; the 1% who end up as such people in Yale or Harvard are definitely not representative of the norm, and making it out to be as if they are is horribly inaccurate.

Mentioning that the majority are successful in business or blue collar work is a simple, demonstrable fact to present. They are also not illiterate; yiddish is a language and they use it efficiently.

You’re just parroting all of their talking points. You’re sounding like a MAGA supporter, just repeating whatever the times says as if it’s torah misinai.

The numbers are very clear – the chasidishe parent supports the public schools. The amount that they receive for their children dwarfs that which they give in taxes to public schools, so that children can be taught to change their genders and that all white people are racist.

The “billion” dollars is a hoax and total fake news. They’re losing, not taking. Do they mention the many hundreds of billions that chasidishe businesses pay in taxes to a system that they don’t benefits from?

“They’re successful, and they are not harming any other part of klal yisroel in their ways – chasidim support many needy litvishe yidden, especially in eretz yisroel.”

Nice obfuscation. We are not discussing Satmar Bikur cholim or other chesseds that they do. We are discussing the fact that our Litvish yeshivas are being put into jeopardy because of the actions of the Chassidishe velt and we are the ones swooping in to save their (and because of them our) skin. Rabbis Reisman, Brudny and Bender are the ones who are being tied up into this and it is not because the government was having problems with Torah Vodaas, Mir Brooklyn or Darchei.

“And they’re very, very successful in business.”

Correct, but let’s not ignore the nice amount on food stamps.

Lastly, this whole thing regarding “respect”. No, I don’t respect everything they do just because they had great people. I don’t respect many of them missing zman tefilah. I don’t respect the derech halimud of many of them. I don’t respect how they handle being in the public eye and dealing with the government. I don’t respect their chinuch.
I do, however, respect their warmth, their avodah, and chassudim that they do.

Marxist,

Spoken like a rabid marxist. VDA’L.

Ubiq.

“Some would argue drug addicts too have a right to education.
Moreover the reason WHY they are drop outs and nebachs, is because the system failed them, which is by design.”

They have a right to education, however their failures are because of their drug addictions, not because of the “system”. Their education system works for the overwhelming majority of their students. There is no evidence to even consider that the failures, resulting in nebachs are greater in their system. Compare to many LWMO, where more than 50% are no longer shomer Shabbos, (vchol hanilveh al zeh) once they hit college. I cant speak to drug use other than what a coworker who had gone through such schools and he said it was “ubiquitous”. You want to talk about providing for those who are slipping or not doing well in the system because of whatever issue, those need to be addressed individually.

It is a fallacy to state that the Chassidish Moisdos have a failing education system.

Their systems is well developed and they very successfully teach their children tons. Children come out knowing what they need to live life, including as a Jew. Additionally, these schools teach children responsibility for their community. With a focus on responsibility, and not just focus on “rights”.

SO the issue is not about education, it is about what the schools teach. And the DOE and the liberals clearly want to control that. No matter how good the education is.

And that is what Yaffed wants. Not to help anybody. That is complete and utter hogwash. Which is crystal clear from the Molesters public comments and statements.

It is an easy in to start with the Cassidim because they look different and even talk different. But the intention is to force all sort of anti Torah and anti Halachic subjects in all Yeshivas.

And that is why this is an issue. No Marxist, it is not the Chassidim’s fault. This has been the goal and they are the canaries in the mine for this.

“Right now the schools are taking money, not following the law and failing some of their own children” – this is parroting the Times. It’s simply not true. Chasidim lose money to the government; what the yeshivos take (and reinvest in the community, in ways that the times doesn’t approve of) does not cover the losses that they suffer, in giving hard earned tax money to LGBT indoctrination camps, aka public schools.

besalel – agreed. You’re entitled to think that chasidim should teach more English; and if you’re chasidish, and you want to petition the change from within the community, al taharas hakodesh – go ahead! things change; the issue here is government control. And if we give in even a drop, we’ve lost.

Avira

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify
I dont agree with the times. I was surprised that some of what I said was considered parroting

““Right now the schools are taking money, not following the law and failing some of their own children” – this is parroting the Times. It’s simply not true. Chasidim lose money to the government;”

I did not say they are net takers.take. bottom line is The government is fundign yeshiva education. Is it less that public school? sure . Doesnt change my point.

“what the yeshivos take (and reinvest in the community, in ways that the times doesn’t approve of) does not cover the losses that they suffer, in giving hard earned tax money to LGBT indoctrination camps, aka public schools.”

SO true!
Not relevant though .

I also had in mind ubiq, with the parroting statement – that the system failed them by design. That the system is designed to make jews fail in life. It’s not. It’s designed to teach torah and prepare the majority for a life in business, and a minority for klei kodesh.”

YES! and nothing else. I never said “designed to fail in life” it prepares them very well. no question as You said majority for a life in business, and a minority for klei kodesh.” However for those few who want to be frei are stuck. You (ane even I) may view that as good. But that is how it is designed. As the kids say this is a feature not a bug.

Hope this helps

ymbirat
“For everyone proclaiming that Jewish education is “just fine”, what objective studies or reports can you present to support your position? ”

what kind of data do you have in mind?

Marxism

“It’s funny how Yaffed came from an ex-Chasid and not a Litvak”

I refer to my comment about failure being because of their own failings.

All his multiple siblings are thrilled with the existing system.

I expect you to reference footsteps YMS as well.

I would send my children to schools that work for them, and are in keeping with one of the valid mesoros. I do not think i am capable, nor do i plan on raising my children in the satmar community.

I speak English in my house, and my mesorah is that it’s best for most boys and all girls to graduate high school, unless the boy is in 10th grade, outstanding in learning, and will undoubtedly use the time spent on secular studies to learn.

Sara schnirer changed chinuch for women; she gained the approval of the gedolei hador. If chasidim want to present their case to their rabbonim – by all means they can. I don’t see why they have to change, as I’ve been saying – it works. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. They don’t need to cause an upheaval just to accommodate people who choose to go off the derech – that shouldn’t be an option regardless of circumstances.

If there’s anything i think the chasidishe world needs, and I’m not in a position to lecture them, it’s mental health awareness. It’s something we all are learning about, in all parts of klal yisroel. It can be mussar/chasidus based, it can be from heimishe sources, vut in all of our yeshivos there is a need for such things. But it does need to come from within, and it can save many neshomos.

ymr – Standardized tests are only proof if they’re actually taken. I’ve taught title 1 classes in williamsburg chadorim – they do not take the tests. They fill in any answer at random, to get through it. That’s because when I’m teaching them, tests aren’t part of the curriculum.

The Times (and you ) did not verify this basic, simple observation. Don’t just look at data – ask the kids and teachers about the standardized tests, and you will understand why nobody passes – it’s because nobody’s taking them.

The girls do take them, and they are not below the public school average, even the Times had to admit.

@ ADA Girls and boys schools are different in the Orthodox world. They have different administrations, different priorities, different staff, and different expectations from their students.
An objective study would involve boys yeshivos with limited hours of instruction.

To clarify, standardized aren’t the only it necessarily the best way of evaluating a school. But it does give an objective measure of performance. Saying that “most of the kids turn out OK” is subjective, and misses the point. What metric are we using to support the claim that yeshiva secular education is performing adequately?