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“Even knowing that עז is the worst, why should that NECESSITATE it having the more severe punishment?
If they are not correlated so why does it follow”Because GENERALLY a worse aveira has a worse punishment, but it doesnt “necessitate” it having a worse punishment. R’ Shimon may very well hold that this is yet another exception ( I glanced at the Gemara quickly it doesnt look like the Gemara there or mefarshim on th page discuss this point. What does R’ Shimon (who holds sereifa is worse) reply? )
“Were I to have no other information to go on”
Ah, but you do have other information to go on! – common sense. Like I described above. we dont need a source to tell us a thornbush is prickly. If I ask you whats more 1 or 2 you dont need a raayah from chazal. If I ask you whats worse hitting or chopping of a leg. you dont need o look that up. similarly if I ask you wahts worse meanes or stealing. just ask a person who has had both, you dont (or at least shouldnt) need chazal to tell you that.“Unfortunately for your side, there is plenty more information, as that is the sugya of the Gemarah”
not at all. There is no gemara (that I’m aware) of that says hitting is worse.
I’m still trying to wrap my head around this so I hope you dont mind my belaboring this point, since I find your position fascinating
If I told you ” KY you know how I always hit people who block my driveway, well my kabalah to work on myself this year is that now on I will only chop of their legs no more hitting”your response would be (according to the tzad that malkos is worse punishment) “good for you thats a step in the right direction” correct?
Remeber Rashi משם הפיצם how unity saves one from even ע’ז . At the dor hafloga, to punish them, the unity was first brokeb up. So how great is unity towards the good.
Oh and BTW KY
you said ” The Gemarah is unsure which is worse, malkos or mamon so I would have to (actively) plead the fifth to that question as I don’t feel qualified to take a position on something that the Gemarah is unsure of”
Ah, but the Rambam is sure, he tells us the order of severity of punishment (pirush to Avos 2:1) (which (generally) reflects the severity of aveira.
המדרגה הראשונה והיא הגדולה שבהם הם הדברים שחייבים עליהם סקילה. והמדרגה שלמטה הימנה מחויבי שרפה. והשלישית מחויבי הרג. והרביעית מחויבי חנק. והחמישית מחויבי כרת. והששית מחויבי מיתה בידי שמים. והשביעית מחויבי מלקות. והשמינית לאוין שאין לוקין עליהם
KY
“i dont see mamon on that list does he hold its not a punishment at all?”I guess not in regards to severity of aveira
“maiming is hitting plus the wounded gets nothing if the perp gets malkos”
It sounds like you are saying wounding is worse (but that this is an exception to the general rule).
now at this point, collecting exceptions isnt so interesting as there are dozens. My point though is
HOW do you know wounding someone is worse than hitting him?
Is there a chazal that says this? If I understand you correct, WE need chazal to explicit tell us which is worse, and if they don’t tell us we determine based on severity. So assuming you feel that wounding is worse. how do you know that?for me no question.
Obviously the guy who chops off legs for blocking a driveway is far far worse than a guy who hits (regardless of whether mamon is worse than hitting). Aye if malkos is worse why does the lesser act get it?
I don’t know. Its a chiddush . But of course maiming is worse than hitting. nobody could even have a hava amina otherwise!See minchas chinuch 595 ונוהג איסור זה לעניין שלא להכות אחד מישראל, בכל מקום ובכל זמן, בזכרים ונקבות. אבל לעניין איסור המוסיף במלקות, אינו נוהג אותו הענין אלא בזמן ישוב הארץ, שהיה לנו בית דין הראויין להלקות. והעובר (רמב”ם שם יב) על זה והכה ישראל הכאה גדולה שיתחייב לו עליה תשלומין של פרוטה או יותר – אינו מתחייב מלקות, לפי שהוא לאו שנתן לתשלומין, וקיימא לן אין אדם לוקה ומשלם. ואם הכהו מכה קטנה שאין מתחייב עליה שוה פרוטה או יותר – חייב עליה מלקות. ואומר אני שראוי לומר דין זה חידוש הוא שחדשה התורה.
The truth is this whole discussion doesnt really make much sense to me.
דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד. זו היא כל התורה כולהwho determines what is “hateful to you” ? and among various things people dont like, who determines which is worse?
I
Another question
whats worse holding up the middle finger or the pinky?
(I’m going to take the liberty of assuming you think holding up the middle finger is worse, please correct me if I’m wrong)
why?
Is there a maamar chazal that that says specifically holding up finger is a wrong thing to do?
or, well society views it as wrong therfore it is in violation of דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד. זו היא כל התורה כולה. If you move to a society that doesnt mind that act then it is no longer wrong .whats worse doing the above gesture or say calling a not nice name. Well it depends on society’s view of the two
doesn’t it?
I’m confused becasue your rubric for evaluating bein adom lechaveiro aveiros isnt logical.
and you’re dodging the question
If I maim him without hitting him. eg I use the sam that Rashi refers to that gets rid of tzar so it is completely painless leg removal. in that case is it less bad than hitting.
More to the point though.
Is it wrong to hold up a finger to someone in a way that society deems disrespectful?
do I need a explicit maamor chazal to tell me that it is wrong?“Severity means grade of issur not how much it hurts”
i’m not sure wha this means. we have already established that stealing a rich person’s sheep because you are hungry and have nothing to eat is the same grade of issur as stealing a poor person’s only sheep is the same grade of issur.
Yet obviously the latter did a far worse act and is a much bigger rasha than the former.
“You have proponents of both positions here.
Whose “common sense” are you going to use as the arbiter for all of jewery to go by?
Do you really not see how untenable a position that is?”Just the opposite. Your example proves it is teneble. Judaism is still going strong your Rav says better to make a fuss mine follow s halacha (I couldn’t help myself) there’s nothing untenable about that.
if you find a more horah who says being meanes is not such a big deal. Definitely better than lying OK, he’s strange but the world doesn’t fall apart. Nothing untenable about that
And out of curiosity, what’s worse sitting next to an erva or being meanes a penuyah who isn’t a nidah
Yet ANOTHER exception!
Seriously though that isnt what the Gemara means, see Rashi הרהורי עבירה – תאות נשים קשים להכחיש את בשרו יותר מגופו של מעשה:
a concept started on Frankfort jewry & expanded elsewhere called Ersetzestrau
That is is fealty to the law of Judaism as codified but not to the Medrash
now all this is too far and I hope no one is claiming that much
however one has to start with the base
and the base is severity of the punishment as far as we are concerned in this world
not in terms of some metaphysical spirituality
the base is the severity of punishment determinesSecond:
a positive commandment one only has to pay one-third of his wealth to fulfill
a negative commandment must give away every drop of his possessions to avoid overriding
Plus
something which is obligated in death penalty or Kares
a positive commandment generally( though there are exceptions) does not override it it while positive
commandment do override a regular negative commandment
there is definitely a permanent structure that is based on punishment
We follow the severity of punishment and terms of structure a priori
everything else is in a non-tangible sense and not really, related to and shouldn’t override our perspective
And even in terms of all the exception stated previously“How does the Chafetz Chaim know that מוציא שם רע is worse than being מאנס a woman (shockingly not agreeing with ubiq’s moral scale, )?
By seeing what the punishment is!!”Thats not an argument on ubiq, As I said from the onset that is generally how severity is determined, but as we have demonstarted there are no fewer than 25 exceptions .
At any rate, halacha lemasseh
A person will either be meanes someone or motzi shem ra. you would tell him better to be meanes?And to make it stranger: suppose a person is “spreading rumors” saying plonis is no longer a besula.
your reaction would be “chas veshalom how can you be motzi shem ra like that”
He replies “no no its true I was meanes her”
while still a rasha, You are maintaining that he is now better than you first thought because he is no longer being motzei shem ra, is this correct?I replied earlier but ddint make it past the censors
Ill split my reply and reword it:“How does the Chafetz Chaim know that מוציא שם רע is worse than being מאנס a woman (shockingly not agreeing with ubiq’s moral scale, )?
By seeing what the punishment is!!
(again arguing on ubiq )”thats not arguing. As I said from the get go, that is generally how severity is determined
and Just so I have your view correctly
If Gimpel is spreading rumors about a person
You would rightly by horrified saying “how can you say that its motzei shem ra”
If he then says “no its not motzei shem ra I was meanes her ” Is he now less of a rasha?“Ubiq I just now saw that you answered.”
Thats ok I was worried what you would reply.
Luckily you didn’t answer you dodged.I’m confused by your response though by saying he was meanes, why is that making him a rasha? Is int that BETTER than what you think of him (ie you think he was motzei shem rah, by your understanding isnt he saying I’m not THAT terrible (relatively speaking) I’m just a rapist ? (interesting kler, I dont want to get side tracked, Ill rephrase)
At any rate thats a dodge,
Suppose 2 eidim come in and corroborate his version? NOW is he a less of a rasha than you first thought?I’m fine if you don’t want to answer
“So then I’m not sure your position. … we generally assume that is so unless it doesn’t agree with my personal moral compass? ””
Yes I think thats fair, though I would substitute “my personal” to “our”
We proved along time ago that the Ribono shel olam instilled a “moral compass” in each of us. Eg even if we were not metzuva in shfichas damim, we would be expected to know not to do that .
Generally severity of an act is determined by the punishment. however as we have seen there are many exceptions.
when a seeming exception arises we dont necessarily assume our moral compass is off. for example Molech nobody assumes that killing all children is better than kiling one. that isnt even a hava amina . why doesn’t the onesh reflect that? good question and one that absolutely deserves an answer but that killing multiple children is better than 1 is simply an impossibility. More to the point, we don’t even need to PROVE that its worse, it is obvious or God -given seichel, our instilled moral compass tells us of course killing several children is worse than one, now we have to understand why the onesh doesnt reflect that.2 people: Revein publicizes that Shprintza is a beula (not true he was motzei shem ra)
shimon publicizes that Genedel is a beula (true because he was meanes her but not motzi shem ra)Obviosuly both are reshaim.
Is it possible that Shimon is better than Reuvein ? Do you really have such a hava amina?I note your hesitation to answer this question when previously posed , and I am happy that I seem to have given you some pause.
“No you haven’t given me pause.”
Im being dan lekaf zchus.
“Assuming that לשון הרע is not worse that מאנס”
Lashon harah dosnt have onesh of maamon
So the hierachy would be :
Motzei shem ra – worst
Ones umefateh – equal
Lashon harahAnd besides, what lashan hara, she didnt do anything wrong.
At any rate either we are speaking different languages. or you define some words differently than standard definition
or have some different understanding of yahudus, where not much makes sense and its all just some illogical chok unconstrained by reality But clearly we are on different wavelengthsLEts make the situation stranger.
If ploni says “I was neenas plonis” so if he actually did it hes not as bad than if he didnt!
If you can even entertain such a possibility then we are definiing soemting very differently
If you can entertain the possibility that telling people someone was“It gets צרעת”
Correct.
Which is not in the hierachy of onshim as identified by the Rambam.“I guess we are talking different languages.”
“How else can you possibly read the words of the ח”ח ??”
Its making a point. It isn’t literal. This is not uncommon when comparing aveiros or mitzvos. As you know several mitzvos are listed as being “keneged kulam” talmud torah, Tzitizis shabbos come to mind., obviously they are not all literally keenged kulam. THe Gemara Bava EMtziah says better to be thrown into a furnace than be mevayesh someone (which doesnt even have an onesh!!! I believe this was one of our exceptions) the Meiri tells us (Berachos 43b recent daf yomi) that this isnt lteral (though most Rishonim DO seem take it literally) . The Gemara BK 119a says א”ר יוחנן כל הגוזל את חבירו שוה פרוטה כאילו נוטל נשמתו ממנו Obviosuly this isn’t literal. The Gemara says being mevazeh chol hamoed is like Ovoda zarah ( I lost track of exceptions I think we are approaching 30) Would you even entertain the possibility that if a person was on his way to work on chol hamoed he’d be better off just stopping in church worshiping oso haish? I’m sure we can come up with many more such examples.
Moreover your example Basically says what I’m saying. He takes it as a given “He is saying it’s simple that nobody in his right mind would go be מזנה just because he is angry at his friend.” Obviosuly NOBODY would think that would be the better option.
The chofetz Chayim never even entertained what you insist to be true ” מוציא שם רע is worse than raping someone.” NOBODY would rape to get even with somebody. Unfortunate we do look at motzei shem ra as “not a big deal” So to make a point he highlights how bad it is. Of course he doesnt mean it is better to be motzei shem ra
You must find this line ” אם יפתנו היצר מחמת כעסו על פלוני שילך ויגנהו בפני אנשים ויוציא עליו שם רע, יתבונן בנפשו אלו היה היצר מפתהו לילך לבית הזונות, האם היה שומע לו?” Very puzzling! Of course people would Be ones/Mefatah whatt’s his question People say Motzi shem ra all the time of course they would do the not as bad aveira!
” it’s absurd to say the fellow downgraded his evil status by actually raping the girl….”So to me it seems odd. Big deal!”. ”
Your position isnt t “odd” it is completly illogical and nonsensical. The chofetz choyim takes it as a given that NOBODY would entertain such a possibility.“I assume your post was written before my last post”
It was .and I think I sort of hear what you are saying. Though, and here is the real kicker, by saying “Rape IS a 90 ”
you are really agreeing with my point.Our discussion began back in July when you said: “In western society, it [rape] is just one step below murder.
Most people I have asked this to seem to lean more to the western feelings on this topic and have a rough time accepting that the Torah doesn’t view it that way” (link below)you supported your claim by “And yet one only needs to pay. Whereas in American thought if there was a death penalty, they would give it”
Which is what prompted over two dozen examples proving that severity is not solely determined by the need to pay .
Accordign to your current framework. Lack of a ounishment, doesnt lower the severity of the averia per se, So rape whcih we gave a 90 severity to IS a 90 but lashon hara is worse fine.
but HOW do you know rape gets such a high score of 90? THAT was our original discussion. Its not from Torah sources which barely give it an onesh, so HOW do you know its so severe (you are right it is! dont get sidetracked) is that “Western society” talking ? Or is that a inherent G-d given morality compass talking?
“By the way
Do you mind telling me how you know when I post?”It is frustrating. Over the past few weeks the home page of the coffee room changed to list forums(decaffeinated coffee, controversial topics, etc) instead of lsit of most recent discussions. Most topics currenlty active are in “decaffeinated coffee” this is in “controversial topics”
what makes it more frustrating, is sometimes clicking coffee room goes straight to decaffeinated coffee,
an easier way to find it, may be to tag it as “favroite” then when you click your profile it comes up in favorite tabI dont really understand what you are adding with your last post.
“My point is only that things we think are not so bad are actually worse.”
Yes absolutely! very well said. THAT is what the chafetz Chaim is telling us Lashon Hara which we are all accustomed to as the Gemara says “hakol beavak Lashan hara” is much worse than we realize. THAT is exactly what he is telling us. Not that it literally is worse than rape Obviously not that its worse to tell people someone was raped who wasnt than to actually rape her. such a contention is absurd. He is telling us that Lashon harah is worse than we realize, not that Lashon hara is worse than rape.
Nobody would have a hava amina that to get back at someone he would commit znus (a contention that doesnt really fit your paradigm so well) so so too we should treat lashon hara.And obviously it isnt literal. since the motzi shem ra that gets an onesh is a very specific case that couldnt come up today. (We dont have naarah hamorasa’s walking around) Lashon hara never gets an onesh beis din (yes it gets tzaras but so does gassas ruach and wait for it …. gilui arayos which we learn from Paroh and SAra! Arachin 16a) By using the strict severity of punishment metric Ones gets the worst (would have to pay tzar and boshes) spreading rumors true or not , gets NO punishment listed in the Rambam’s hierarchy of determining severity. You might think (As we see in practice) that lashon hara/motzi shem ra is no big deal. So the chofetz chaim is using poetic license sayin g . NO it is horrible it like rape which you wouldn’t dream of doing , becasue we all know its horrible “יתבונן בנפשו אלו היה היצר מפתהו לילך לבית הזונות, האם היה שומע לו? בוודאי היה גוער בו: לך מעלי מלפתני בעון, שאהיה עבור זה מתועב בעיני ה׳.”
Does he say the guy says “wait I shouldnt rape because i’ll owe money” no of course he doesnt.Another point you seem to be struggling with is that circumstances change the severity of an aveira. Not all lashon hara is the same, not all theft is the same. True Beis din treats the poor man who stole bread to feed his family the same as a rich man who stole bread out of spite., but obviously they are not the same. (as we showed from Dovid Hamelech in case you need a rayah for this obvious point,) Similarly Tazadikim are held to a higher standard eg Reuvein’s getting involved in his father’s sleeping arrangement was considered very severe, the Torah compares it to one of the gimel chamuros. For us it would barely be an aveira. what onesh is there for moving our father’s bed?
Severity is not strictly determined based on onesh. Motivation, yetzer harah, intent, and the outcome all play a role . Yes beis din isnt equipped/empowered to take all those factors into account, but don’t worry the Ribon shel olam is.
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