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“We find raping an arusa is worst than an eishes ish. An arusa is sekula, but an eishes ish is chenek”.
False
only a na’ara besula is sekilla
& even that’s complexubiq, check my previous posts about the Binyan Tzion 170 posted in the wrong order.
“Are you quoting something?YES PESUKIN IN CHUMASH”
forgive me, my copy is defective. I cant find these pesukim :
פרעה ואבימלך נענשו על לקיחת שרה בע”כ
כמה פעמים כתוב
אשת אברהם
בעולת בעל
עף פעם לא נכתב מילה על הא דלקחה לענס אותה!!! הלא דבר הוא.
נענש על כוונתו. אבל כל הטענה היתה רק מטעם אא”“TRUE BUT NOT THE POINT I MADE”
I dont know what point you are making?“it wasnt a case of nenas in the classical sense as far as I’m awareEXACTLY WHAT WAS DIFFERENT?”
I never thought of it as physical force. she was forced because he was the king. Its kind of like statutory rape. while a form of rape, it isnt the same as foriceable rape. (If I was a betting man you dont view statutory rape as rape at all ) Aye the 16 year old was a “willing” participant? There is sort of an anan Sahadi that by definition a 16 year old isnt willing. If you ask people to list rapes in Tanach I dont know that many would mention Sarah, Rivkah, and Esther. although YEs they were nenas and halachicly remained muttar. From the assailants perspective they were “willing” participants. It is hard to imagine that when Esther says “until now I was forced” She meant that she was fighting Achashveirosh every night. Similarly for Sarah.
On the other hand when it was forcible rape, the Torah is quite clear. See pilegesh bigivah. although as a pilegesh she is an eishis ish, that part is almost downplayed.
“Multiple of one sin is worse than single of the same sin.”
Yes you said that and replied commanding the murder of 6 million is one sin. sacrificing five kids r”l to molech at once is one sin.
At nay rate even if you do take this approach that you are being forced to take. SO I guess stealing $1,000,000 is worse than 1 perutah. ?“We don’t decide הלכה based on that.”
I’m not talking about deciding halacha.
Again back to the beginning. What started theis conversation was ““Most people I have asked this to seem to lean more to the western feelings on this topic and have a rough time accepting that the Torah doesn’t view it that way””that if someone views rape as worse than theft that was keneged Hatorah. Becuase the punihsment isnt that way.
I have amply proved that this is not true. You even agreed that this isnt always true“Kings can basically do what they want. Can’t learn out from them.”
Yes you keep saying that. but WHY? Why? did dovid declare him to death? Ive asked this over and over?
Are yiou saying he was a king and did what he wanted with no reason?WHY did he say the thief was worthy of death? if all he did was stole, why death? Why ? why why?
I dont know how to ask this any clearer.
Yes Beis din obliviously wouldnt have killed him, that wasnt my point.“I asked if a rabbi actually said my question /position is so odd base even in סדום they wouldn’t say it.
You responded by telling me the story of סדום
?????”I responded directly ““Did a rabbi really say this???” more than one.” 2 Rabbonim said similar things ( more recent one said in sedom they wouldnt ask it, Rabbi Shurkin years ago said that that was a classic sedom question, and was EXACTLY their thought process)
BTW in case you feel that you are wasting your time here. you’ll be pleased to know I took your guidance to heart/. Yesterday someone was blocking my driveway. I was about to hit him, but was able to control myself and work on my midos and opted for the lesser aveira instead chopped of his legs Of course he doesnt think that this averia is less. but what does he know, he is tainted by western values..
at any rate I really would like to understand how you understand Dovid Hamelech. Yes he was a king, and since we arent it has No HALCAHIC bearing. But dovid said the person who stole the ani’s sheep deserved death. WHY? Was this arbitrary? Are yo usaying dovid felt the ALL theives deserve death?
WHY did dovid say he should get killed?“sorry they are not pesukim
they are the idea quoted in hebrew”got it
“why did dovid hamelech feel that way? because he felt that stealing from a pauper is worse than staeling from a rich man
much as i would assume the same thing”YES YES YES!
Nailed it!
In other words severity is NOT determined solely based on onesh. You too agree with Dovid hamelech that stealing from a pauper is worse!“but were i to execute someone based on that id be a murderer”
Yes obviously“has nothing to do with our topic”
Has EVERYTHING to do with our topic. your entire premise was built on greater punihsment = greater sin. Unless we had a source telling us an exception.
Here You now on your own that stealing from a pauper is worse , much like Dovid Hamelech knew on his own too. (Of course unilke Dovid You cant do anything about it, but that isnt my point, at the moment)“it strangely leaves one type out”
Totally strange!“youd say thats because its so horrible its obviously worse than any of the others”
I said that as a possibility, I’m not sure I buy it.“you keep harping on the quantity of exceptions as if thats meaningful. its not.”
Of course it is, a rule with 24 exceptions isnt strictyl speaking a rule. AND the fact that this question is rarly even raised when the exceptions are raised further proves that it isnt an absolute rule.“avimelech was pure because as a king he had the right to take any woman he wanted”
ummmm, yes, kind of waht Isaid . thus not germane to our topic much as I said. Clearly standards for a king where different, maybe it was considered an honor to be taken by the king so women “consented” like minors today. (of course Sarah didnt fall into that category but how was Avimelech to know that)
“but im the closed minded one who does not employ critical thinking”
I apologized for that. I was wrong. you are looking for ways to downplay an aveir, sort of a minuval “birshus HaTorah”“i never got your issue with hitting vs maiming so i have no comment on that”
According to the punishment rubric laid out by the Rambam , maiming someone (money) gets less of a punishment than hitting (malkos) thus it is less of an aveira.
My neighbor whose leg I chopped off thinks this is absurd. But according to you I did the right thing by opting for the lesser aveira.
this is the same as your position then when ploni changed his mind and instead of stealing a pen raped someone, he did a good thing (realtivly) by not doing the worse aveira“can you tell me what rabbi shurkin said?
even a paraphrase is enough
but a bit moire detail than
rabbi shurkin said this”I quoted earlier.
Someone asked him Literally our discussion, if stealing gets a worse onesh than rape, does that men it is better to rape.
He replied that this was exactly the shitas sedom. They killed people by smearing them with honey to leave them for bees, the example I mentioned before “they would all steal a shava peruta to avoid being culpable.” all ways to practice not technically deserving punishment, nonethelss they are “raim vechataim L’Hashem Meod” and worse than any “real” thief.Again yes, they were right, in the sense that beis din would not be able to have them each pay back the < perutah they stole. much like we cant make the man in Nosson Hanavis’ mashal pay more * , But that does not tmake their aveira less, which is what you seem to believe
(*this is not complelty true see the Tahsbetz I mentioned at the very start of our discussion)
KY
Imagine a priceless family heirloom, say a pictue of a Great granfather or something. Obviosuly it has zero market value. Nobody would pay a cent for a picture of some old guy .Are you really suggesting it is a bigger averia for me to steal 10 bucks from the guy than to destroy the picture?
BTW
“And if society would not view it that way, it would not create such emotional pain and it would no longer be so terrible.” this is true for most bein adom lechaveiro aveiros. hitting is only an aveira if done “derech nitzayon” acording to the Rambam, if I let then most hold it is allowed. Stealing obviosuly isnt stealing If I let. but even if you can (strongly) assume that I would let, like having you do a mitzvah with my stuff, or something nobody is makpid on, you can “steal.” I dont remember the rayah but I heard from Rabbi Reisman that if I let you tell Lashon harah about me you can
Murder is an exception, even if a person asks to be killed, because is suffering their is an issur to kill him. ( I forgot where I saw this as explanation why the torah had to assur killing if we would know it on our own)KY
I’m referring to R’ Michel Shurkin, he is B”H alive and well“Plus In one he also created hardship to the victim so it’s worse”
YES! Exactly. Of course Beis din can’t punish for the “hardship” but the SAME ACT can still be worse based on external factors like hardship.
“But if I ask you which is worse breaking your window or killing your sheep, and the monetary value is the same. How would you answer that?”
I would answer it depends on the circumstances. If the sheep was the only source of livelihood and now the guy is bankrupt obviously the sheep is worse. If the guy had thousands of sheep and a few sick ones got killed then destroying a window might be worse (I’m having a hard time coming up with a plausible scenario for the window being worse but hopefully you get my point)
“Rape is mostly an emotional crime. So yes today it’s a total horror.”
YES! exactly. Very emotional! probably even life changing!
Thus much like Dovid Hamelech’s case Aveiros are NOT judged SOLELY based on punishment. The “hardship created” is factored in as well. You quoted from the sifsei chachamim that rape is a form of gezel.Without question the “hardship created” by rape is worse than a pen being stolen. Thus although the punishment is less (or even non existent as it would be for stealing < shava peruta) the averia is still much much worse.
“Rape is mostly an emotional crime..”
are you going to acknowledge what a slippery slope that is
one random example Nazi criminals
people say got to get over it
get over the emotion it’s time to forgive after all once there’s no right or wrong who is to decide what’s right and wrong
the media
the whims of the public So you’re willing to admit that your decision how you judge crime is completely subjective
” its a machloikes you and Dovid Hamelech”
ubiquitin has an agenda and draws the Target around it
Preposterousa) show source to say that it was rape it could just as easily been consensual
b)there’s a major element that it was because it was a married woman (even with a conditional Get)
that was issue not rape
c) the fact that we compare it to stealing a sheep goes to show that that metaphor stealing in essence is at least as bad if not worsebut why let facts that stand in the way
Let’s please use halachic terms for some of the more sensitive parts of the discussion. Thanks.
IITFT
“are you going to acknowledge what a slippery slope that is”I’m not sure who this is directed to .
The second point was directed at me but you clearly havent read my targets ”
I’m talkign about the mashal not the nimshalKY
“i dont believe it is the outlook in the torah”when it comes to bein adom lechaveiro why would the severity of the act be determined by the Torah.?
Just like there is no passuk that says stealing a poor man’s sheep is worse than a rich. It is something you know.
Is it kenegged the Torah to be more outraged by a person who stole a poor man’s only sheep than one of the rich man’s dozen?
” The distinction between what the Troah would want in ideal world with no feelings” and the world we live in where our thoughts are perception of slight is framed by western thought is not a real division. It is one you contrived.Its not like well ideally the poor person wouldn’t care so much and Dovid Wouldn’t have been so strict but he caved to Western (or its equivalent) pressure.
For example. Is there anything inherently wrong in making a certain gesture with a finger that is widely considered offensive? If someone did it to in the dor hamidbar I doubt anybody would have batted an eyelash. Yet today, I’m sure you agree making such a gesture to anybody certainly an adum chashuv is an averia . Why? Just because western society tells us that it is rude?
Yes!
Or going back to my last example. If I destroy a family heirloom that has no market value, do you think my act is less severe than stealing a few bucks?
Or the example I keep giving, could it really be that maiming someone is less severe an act than hitting?
If you say yes,In the ideal Torah world , ie based on the Torah’s outlook, hitting is more severe than maiming, destroying something a person values that cant be marketed is not that big an aveira, and stealing a poor man’s sheep is just as bad as a rich ones.
then MAYBE I could hear your tzad.but that doesnt seem plauisible, the Torah was meant for people, with feelings and emotions yes beis din shel matah can’t always punish based on these external factors, but that doesnt change how severe the aveira is. . yes punishments generally are more severe for more severe acts, but this is not always true.
“that has been my point all along that we have been mushpa from western thought”
Of course but that isnt necessarily bad.(I’m gonna ignore this comment “but in a pristine torah only world it would not be that way” That in a pristine world girls shouldnt mind being ne’nas and just get over it to paraphrase IITFT’s comment that I’m not sure who it is directed against becaue I’d rather end on a high note. )
I’m not sure what your adding with your bourbon example, it is the same as my picture example
KY
“No. It’s not bad per se. However it’s important to know that this is true. Because then when we think we are using our “critical thinking ” we have to realize that our thinking is tainted by non Torah values.”taht is “tainted” sometimes following “western values” IS a Torah value.
“דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד זו היא כל התורה כולה ואידך פירושה הוא זיל גמור”
surely that is a quintessential torah value.
now what determines what is “דעלך סני ” Is there an objective list in the Torah. (which is what you were originally maintaining ie hitting a person is worse than maiming is worse than stealing is worse than rape )
Or is the severity of an act determined by society (note: not the punishment)Put another way imagine the following
“ploni parked in two spaces so I hit him”
“Omg thats crazy and uncalled for”next day
“ploni parked in two spaces so I cut of his legs”
Omg your psychotic and should be locked away”Is this reaction really keneged the Torah?
would you say, oy your tainted by western values in a perfect world youd be more abhored by hitting than cutting off legs
Im not sure how your borubon example is different than my picture example
KY
“No. It’s not bad per se. However it’s important to know that this is true. Because then when we think we are using our “critical thinking ” we have to realize that our thinking is tainted by non Torah values.”Though in this case it isnt “tainted” sometimes following “western values” IS a Torah value.
“דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד זו היא כל התורה כולה ואידך פירושה הוא זיל גמור”
surely that is a quintessential torah value.
now what determines what is “דעלך סני ” Is there an objective list in the Torah. (which is what you were originally maintaining ie hitting a person is worse than maiming is worse /stealing which are are worse than meanes )
Or is the severity of an act determined by society (note: not the punishment)Put another way imagine the following
“ploni parked in two spaces so I hit him”
“Omg thats crazy and uncalled for”next day
“ploni parked in two spaces so I cut of his legs”
Omg your psychotic and should be locked away”Is this reaction really keneged the Torah?
would you say, oy your tainted by western values in a perfect world youd be more abhored by hitting than cutting off legs
I’m not sure why my other comment isnt going through it sees benign
KY
“No. It’s not bad per se. However it’s important to know that this is true. Because then when we think we are using our “critical thinking ” we have to realize that our thinking is tainted by non Torah values.”taht is “tainted” sometimes following “western values” IS a Torah value.
“דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד זו היא כל התורה כולה ואידך פירושה הוא זיל גמור”
surely that is a quintessential torah value.
now what determines what is “דעלך סני ” Is there an objective list in the Torah?
Put another way imagine the following
“ploni parked in two spaces so I hit him”
“wow thats uncalled for”next day
“ploni parked in two spaces so I cut of his legs”
Omg thats psychotic and you should be locked away”Is this reaction really keneged the Torah?
would you say, oy your tainted by western values in a perfect world youd be more upset by hitting than cutting off legs ?
Another relevant source.
whats worse onaas mammon or onaas Devarim?
According to your paradigm mammon is worse since it has a worse punishment.
Yet see Kitzur 63:1
וּגְדוֹלָה אוֹנָאַת דְּבָרִים מֵאוֹנָאַת מָמוֹן, שֶׁזֶה נִתָּן לְהִשָּׁבוֹן וְזֶה לֹא נִתָּן לְהִשָּׁבוֹן, זֶה בְּמָמוֹנוֹ וְזֶה בְּגוּפוֹ.Precisley BECASUE there is no ability to pay back makes it worse. and violating a body is worse than money .
and that is regarding “mere” words. al achas kama vekama our discussionHard to imagine it’s from to more חמור ones
And yet it is.
Wow! the Power of teshuva. what a well timed lessonGut yohr to you as well
KY
אִלּוּ לֹא הָיְתָה סְקִילָה חֲמוּרָה, לֹא נִתְּנָה לַמְגַדֵּף וְלָעוֹבֵד עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה
HOW did the Chachamim know that Megadef and A”Z were worse?
According to you we know a aveira is worse based on the punishment. Here you see the EXACT OPPOSITE. The Chachamim know that an averia is worse irrespective of its punishment!! Concluding that the punishment must be worseAt any rate, we seem to be going backwards
youve already agreed that there are exceptions to the general rule. Our argument is now whether we need a source for the exception.
Eg do we need a source to tell us that maming someone is worse thann hitting, or can we say that mesvara
Kugeryid, what is עונאת דברים?
Sorry I did nor mean to offend, just to remind.
It is easy to switch an aleph to an ayin because of their proximity on the keyboard.
Ubiq how does that show the power of תשובה ?
I doesn’t . My comment didnt make sense
I grant I dont understand the Mishna berura. Why is onoas devarim any different than say stealing (or any bein adom lachaveiro)? Both involve being over a lav thus involve an element of bein adom lamakom and lachaveiro ?
At any rate back to the subject at hand 2 points:
a. So fine youve shown that the mishna berura argues on the kitzur, at most that gets rid of exception #25
b. how do you explain the logic of the kitzur according to you this line וּגְדוֹלָה אוֹנָאַת דְּבָרִים מֵאוֹנָאַת מָמוֹן, שֶׁזֶה נִתָּן לְהִשָּׁבוֹן וְזֶה לֹא נִתָּן לְהִשָּׁבוֹן, זֶה בְּמָמוֹנוֹ וְזֶה בְּגוּפוֹ. makes no sense, since that isnt how the severity of aveiros are determined ?I’m also not clear on how you understand the mishna in sanhedrin. HOW did chazal know Megadef and A”z are among the worst aveiros?
It says איזהו דרך ישרה שיבור לו האדם Bein adam lechavero is greater according to the Midrash Shmuel because it is also a bein adam lamokam.
ubiq
אִלּוּ לֹא הָיְתָה סְקִילָה חֲמוּרָ
The edifice superstructure of Halacha is built on severity of punishment
and this refutes your contention Remarkablythe very Foundation which everything else upon Is Avoda zara
therefore it is taken as given by the sages that that it had to be on the very pinnacle in terms of punishment otherwise the whole system pyramid wouldn’t have systemic structure what to stand upon
cf.Ramban sefer hamitzvos et alIITFT
It doesnt .
“the very Foundation which everything else upon Is Avoda zara”
HOW did they know that.You cant say they knew that “from the severity of the punishment”
Because they are using the severity of Avoda Zara to prove the severity of the punishment.The chachamim are saying sekila is worse BECAUSE it is the punishment for Avoda Zara.
how did they know avoda Zara is so bad?
You can’t say because it gets Sekila which is the worse punishment.Again, and Ive said this probably a dozen times, yes the two are related . what I’m saying is that the severity of punishment does not ALWAYS indicate the severity of an aveira . and here we have yet ANOTHER proof.
On page 2 of this thread we compiled a list of 24 exceptions
We can add 25 ) onoas devarim (according to the kitzur) mentioned above
and 26) Avoda Zara which as you we know is the worst of aveira IRRESPECTIVE of its punishmentAs an aside Ive asked this to KY a few times but havent gotten a clear response. Is it your position that its a worse act for someone to hit someone (gets malkos) than to maim him (pays mamon) ?
IIFT
Just to make sure the conversation is clear.
The discussion was whether the severity of an act is ALWAYS determined based on the aveira.
KY initially said yes. to which we came up with over 2 dozen exceptions (to be fair KY said he thought I meant we NEVER judge the severity of an act based on the aveira which is of course nonsense as there are multiple explicit gemaras that say we do) .
My discussion with Ky has now shifted a bit, as to whether we can come up with these exceptions on our own. I don’t have a great mekor for that (also “on our own” is hard to define. Obviously Dovid Hamelech or chazal coming up with a sevara doesnt mean we can, but what about the Kitzur? I would say if he can then we can, but I grant that reasonable people can draw that line in different places , so our excellent conversation fizzled a bit .
Thus when you say ” this refutes your contention Remarkably”
I’m not sure what you mean.I have proven that severity of an act is not always based on the severity of punishment by compiling over 25 exceptions (sure we can quible on a few but most are solid, and some are even pesukim)
This is no longer the point of dispute (and again IIRC KY said it never was)Another relevant mareh makom (though not a rayah by any means)
The mishna berura in intro to hilchos shabbos says how severe shabbos is.
He proves this from onesh. But he doesn’t say case closed that is how severity is determined, he shows other ways that shabbos is more chamur. Because severity of an act is not solely determined by onesh“I believe I answered you.
The Gemarah is unsure which is worse, malkos or mamon so I would have to (actively) plead the fifth to that question as I don’t feel qualified to take a position on something that the Gemarah is unsure of
I think I did say that already but doesn’t hurt to repea”Yes you said that but that isn’t an answer.
to put in perspective two guy’s drive ways get blocked. Reuben hits the guy who blocjed him. Shimon cuts off the guy’s legs. You aren’t sure which is worse.
And in the tzad of the gemara that malkod is a worse onesh then it is a worse act to hit Reuven is the bigger rasha in your view. Correct?
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