- This topic has 235 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 8 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
This psak of the Binyon Tzion is hard to understand. If the deceased is patur from mitzvos than he is also patur from aveiros. I think that bizoyan hames is because of us. We are not being respectful to him. If a live father does thinks against the Torah, respect is not to listen to him. Similarly, the respect over here is to use the death person to save the person in front of us.
I have to apologize to ubiq and klugeryid as I misread the teshuvas Binyan Tzion who argues on the Noda Beyehuda forbidding doing an autopsy even if the person is around to save another life because he is exempt of all mitzvos
klugeryid checks things out for himself. The question in Binyan Tzion 170 was about learning about an illness by autopsy for other similar illnesses that might occur.. Saving an individual through transplant is OK see the above Noda Beyehudah.
KY
“Killing a million is not worse than killing one PER EACH INDIVIDUAL KILLED .”Hitler never killed anybody
“The gemarahs question by Moloch was how can adding more volume of the same sin clear the sinner from punishment.”
I’m not sure what you are adding .
As I understnd your position currently:
Aveiras are judged based on theri punishment, unless we have an explicit source telling us that this aveira is worse although the punishment is less (Do i have this right)so my question from Molech was how do you know sacrificing all children is worse, do you have a source?
Your response was, Rashi tells us it is worse.This is the PERFECT example of our discussion. to me the question is crazy. Of course sacrificing all chidren is worse. Aye why doesnt it get a punishment, ok that needs a teritz.
Your position is wow sacrificing all chidren is obviosuly not as bad, from the fact that it doesnt have punishment, aye there are exceptions. We cant lable exceptions on our own . wait never mind Rashi says all chidren is worse, so ok this is yet another exception“Oh and BTW, the lor who wiped my yeshiva plate clean without knowing me at all,”
That was the kaf zehus we came up with
the other possibility was that you never thought about/realized how severe rape was or that you did and were trying to downplay it“Is he the one who I am still waiting for sources, from, from our last thread?”
no more sources, the argument hifted a bit since we started, and as things stand now “Only in today’s dor can anyone even have such a hava amina, i dont even think in sedom they would pose such a question”“I should just take his opinion, anonymous as it is, on faith?
CMon!”
no no no no of course not. I did not mean to imply that, (which is why I only posted the comment here I think youll find it funny, you probably feel the opposite) that was more for me than for you. I am having a hard time understanding how a person can have a tzad that Killing one child is worse than all, unless I can PROVE otherwise. similarly that having an arm cut off is worse than hitting. let alone outr original topic.
I find it cathartic falling back on its not your fault
you are one hundred percent free to argue. I did not mean to mkae some kind of argument from authority.
I’m not sure if any rabbinic figure told you stealing was worse than rape (I hope not) if they did they are 100% wrong. I did not mean that you have to agree with me becasue of any Rabbi, let alone an anonymous one.“And I don’t recall dodging any questions, She is not over לפני עוורShe is entitled to save whatever is more important to her however she wants It’s not her issue”
I also asked whether a bystander can say “dont rape her steal that money instead”
“Rare or חילול שבת”
Which?”Probably be oiver chilul shabbos, but I’m not sure
chazal allowed oiver a derabanan for kavod habryos. This is at worst a derababonon, is obviosuly not melacha hatzricha legufo, and the fact that he is an oneis might make it less than that. (I just thought of this sevra and am quite proud of it, you have to admit its not bad)For arguments sake, lets say he should rape, ok so ?
Reb eliezer
“he question in Binyan Tzion 170 was about learning about an illness by autopsy for other similar illnesses that might occur.. ”
You are mistaken the Binyan Tziyon argues on the Nodeh beyehuda and never allows nivul hames for pikuach nefessh (unless had permission ahead of time) . He has 3 teshuvas all in the same area. he is quite clear on thisYes most argue (though none make the case that the OP made, “of course killing is worse it has a worse punishment”)
What kind of חילול שבת? Beneficial to you or not? Do you need it on shabbos?
“Rape is a wild card.
It has no proscribed punishment”
rape is mechuyav in the monetary charges-
nezek tzaar ripui sheves and boshes like any other permanent criminal assault eg chopping of an arm“Moloch is doing the same act repeatedly.
It’s not 2 times Moloch is worse than one so how can it be patur.”So tosfos sort of asks that question, (he asks why isn’t he chayiv after the first kid) tosfos answers either he only has one kid or sacrificed all at once (iirc)
So, according to you. We have two people one has 2 kids the other has one. Both sacrificed one kid. The one who has no other kids act is not as bad (less than stealing a pen) than the one who has another. Correct?“One thing I learned is
First “what does it say ”
Before you discuss, understand, question,…
Make sure you know what it does and doesn’t say.”Oh totally but if it doesn’t day otherwise you can use seichel. Yes if the Torah said rape isn’t so bad we wouldn’t have this conversation. But using our fickle minds is encourage d. We don’t need s rayah that a thorn bush is prickly.
“but I won’t demean him by bringing him in here to get smeared by others, ”
Don’t it’s lashon hara to mention his name.
(Though doesn’t the fact that you don’t want him demeaned negate his thesis a bit? Who cares what people say or how bizzare the position is if right stand by it 🙂 )“If I’m so far off base you should have no problem finding multiple sources stating that even though there is no punishment clearly spelled out in the Torah, you should know that this sin is terrible”
I provided 2 dozen such examples. Though not for this specific case.
Hitler is a great question.
In דיני שמים unquestionably he is rotting permanently”How do you know?
“You think it’s worse to order someone else to do it???”
No why?“Because now your mixing multiple issues,
causing the word “worse “, to take on multiple meanings that are at odds with each other.
There is worse as in who is a bigger lowlife.”Yes! I mentioned this point earlier in our threads
“Had ימ”ש been ח”ו a Cohen.
And if he did תשובה and your hypothetical that he never actually killed anyone, would you say he cannot דוכן ?”It would be in beis din’s right to prevent him.
See the Tashbetz I cited at the beginning of our discussion, that beis din can make rules as they see fit.
“But from a strictly single issue point, would ב”ד be able to punish him for the acts of killing which his orders caused?”
first of all yes as mentioned.
Secondly we arent talkign baotu beis din per se.Lets go back to the beginning of our conversation.
It started with this quote of yours
“Most people I have asked this to seem to lean more to the western feelings on this topic and have a rough time accepting that the Torah doesn’t view it that way”Your position was (is?) since the torah doesnt give it a severe punishment it isnt so bad.
You seem to have come around somewhat “In דיני שמים unquestionably he is rotting permanently.”
Even though based on punishment is act isnt so bad. Something tells you that although technicly he may be able to get off in a beis din. his crime his still terrible, if not actual murder “it’s just one step below murder.”I dont know if you have a source that tells you this, my point is you dont need one. We all have a G-d given sense of morality. Why isnt there an onesh beis din for incitining mass murder? good question, and it needs a teiritz, (I’m sure you are aware of the whole sugya divrei harav etc) . but the fact that there is no onesh doesnt mean it is a low crime.
If a person murders with no witnesses it isnt a lowly crime.
If a ben sorer umorer’s parents don’t have the exact same voice his crime isnt mitigated. (or is it?)
The Torah gives dinim how beis din and society functions. and delinates this person gets an onesh and based on techinicalitys that person doesnt.Lets look at motive for a moment. Beis din is not equiped to take motive into account. surely you agree the poor person who stole to feed his family did a “lower averia” than the rich person who stoel to spite the poor man.
Do I need a raaya that the rich man is worse? True I have one from Dovid Hamelech, but how did HE know, was this some sort of nevuah?
Granted beis din treats them the same, but that doesnt mean their act was the same.We can take this further. whats a worse aveira, working on shabbos to feed family that is starving (not to death) or eating neveila lehachis. OF course beis din’s punishment for shabbos is far worse. but I’m pretty sure in olam haemes the mumar lehachis is far worse. Practicly this doesnt matter I cant think of a nafka mina, but the atttude changes
you asked ““Rare or חילול שבת” Which?”
And I gave an (excellent?) answer saying better to do chilul shabbos in that case. Clearly my answer was driven to prevent the woman from getting rape. Even if you on’t liek the specific answer, Imagine a posek trying to come up with a way to “protect” the woman. Is that a bad thing? Is that a sign of favoring western values over the TorahIts worse to tell someone to kill 6 Million than do it yourself. If you do the murders yourself you have to look at the people in the eye before you kill them and hear them scream and see the blood
Ordering someone else to do it means you are a coward. Himmler YMSH witnessed one massacare, threw up and then never saw anyone ever killed like that again and ordered Auschwitz to be built
KY
“Are you maybe starting to get the idea that your critical thinking may be fallible. And maybe just because it’s simple to you, it may be off base anyway ?”
Hold up of course its fallible. I’m not even sure were I implied otherwise. you see this is were I’m getting mixed messages. You say “And maybe just because it’s simple to you, ” But it isnt just me. It is everybody! Even you at times claim you agree “Nobody is claiming that rape is a good thing” So you also think it is bad. How do you know? Do you have a source?
More to the point, do you need a source?“You mean maybe to ask what would I say if the sources were not there?
Well I’d have the same reaction as they did.
How can it possibly be so that this is less severe than that??”Yes! Ok we are cooking you are getting it. Sometimes things are so obvious that even in the absence of a source we know it to be true.
“We don’t need s rayah that a thorn bush is prickly.
you probably would if you tried to base a halacha on it and i challenged you”thats crazy. Aaaand I proved from a Gemara that that is not the case. when the Gemara asks how can a thorn bush be a hadas if derachea darchei noam? The Gemara DOES NOT say “prove a thorn bush is prickly” such a question would be absurd. The Gemara accepts it and moves on.
“Of course it’s worse. Aye why no punishment? I don’t know. Who cares
Move on”Who cares?!?!?!
what on Earth are you talikgn about. Of course we care! its baffling! All with no exception who address this come up with some explanation.
NOT ONE says eleh mai, killing one is better. such a position is impossible. IT makes no sense. It goes against all reason.In other words when faced with our dilemna: How can a (seemingly?) obviously worse aveira get a lighter punishment?
EVERY SINGLE ONE who answers explains why .
Not one , makes your conclusion, eleh mai its not so bad . Not one.KY
YWN seems to have been glicthy lately, I’m not sure if my you noted my last post (starting “Had ימ”ש been ח”ו a Cohen…”There are 2 points there that I don’t want lost:
Lets look at motive for a moment. Beis din is not equipped to take motive into account. surely you agree the poor person who stole to feed his family did a “lower averia” than the rich person who stole to spite the poor man.
Do I need a raaya that the rich man is worse? True I have one from Dovid Hamelech, but how did HE know, was this some sort of nevuah?
Granted beis din treats them the same, but that doesnt mean their act was the same.you asked ““Rare or חילול שבת” Which?”
And I gave an (excellent?) answer saying better to do chilul shabbos in that case. Clearly my answer was driven to prevent the woman from getting rape. Even if you don’t like the specific answer, Imagine a posek trying to come up with a way to “protect” the woman. Is that a bad thing? Is that a sign of favoring western values over the Torah?“..When a 23 year old woman was gang raped, tortured and murdered in Delhi, in 2012, this was known worldwide as the “Delhi gang rape case”. The emphasis was on “gang rape”, not on “murder”. This is typical. Why is rape seen a crime worse than torture or murder? .. . Isn’t it possible that traditional societies value a woman’s honor more, just as radical feminists and left-liberals do, their pretensions to the contrary notwithstanding?
Why do criminals who severely mutilate their victims get away with it more easily than convicted rapists? Why are women largely let off the hook?””
“Finally, why do rapist deserve “the harshest of punishments”? Is rape worse than murder? Being beaten within an inch of your life? Suffering lifelong disability after being shot, stabbed or bludgeoned? I think the left with its female-driven agenda has managed to create this special category of sex offenses. Once the public at large buys into the idea that sexual assault is the worst crime you can commit against a fellow citizen, worse even that murder apparently,.”
According to Research Albeit unofficial
forcing a rapist to marry and then raise children with the victim is a greater deterrent than jail or any other modern punishment psychologically
it does not matterRabbi shraga Fievel mendelowitz would refer to those who Adhere to the legal obligations of Judaism but prefer to glean their mores and mindset from elsewhere as Disciples of Bila’am
referencing Bamidbar 22:18“That’ entire סוגיא is the gemarah on its own.
Had the Torah specified use from the סנה it never would have said can’t be.”Right weve covered this. But the Torah does not say to use a sneh, nor does it say rape is not as bad as stealing. And before you cite a “rule” as the Torah saying that, you’ve tried that and there are dozens (literally) exceptions. thus not making it a rule at all. But this is just review weve covered that.
My point here is, youre claiming that if that if you wanted to make a halachic argument based on a thorn being prickly you need to prove a thorn is prickly. “you probably would if you tried to base a halacha on it and i challenged you””
Here the Gemara just takes it as agiven. Not one amorah, rishon, achron asks wait how do we know thorns are pricklyIITFT
” Why is rape seen a crime worse than torture or murder?”
Its not, but unfortunately murder is not that unusual. what happened to her is still unusual. (though I’m learning not that big a deal relatively speaking, certainly not as bad as having a pen stolen” I think the left with its female-driven agenda has managed to create this special category of sex offenses.”
and there I was thinking the left was supporting everything goes hedonistic free for all society. hard to keep upKY
“By stating that because it’s simple and obvious to you, therefore it can’t be otherwise”I never said that. I said simple and obvious to all of us.
I f you would have said , you know I dont think rape is so bad you are making a big deal out of nothiing” we wouldnt be having this conversation.You agree rape is bad (in some posts) but not as bad as stealing
This is what is confusing me How do you know rape is bad, leshitascha you need a source. and if you posit that it can be bad without a source why is it it “western thinking” to say it is worse than stealing“A persons body is their possession”
Source please ( I dont disagree, I just cant think of an explicit source for this)“Not sure where you got that conclusion from.
I’d be saying that the fact that he is pattur is indicative of the lessening of severity and I’d ask why just like they do”Noooooo! I thought you got it. No one that I have seen asks why is killing lal children less of an averia than killing one . not a one, you are making this up. I’m open to be proven wrong o f course . if you could provide ONE such example . but the question yo uare attributing to them is absurd as is your position.
They DO ask why does the more severe act get less of a punishment, much liek I asked the same regarding rape. But nobody that I have seen even contemplates as a hava amina that killing all children is a better act“As I said, the ראשונים can say that. I and you can’t.
You can ask anything you want ”Yes! nailed it! So they were allowed to think and we are not. I ve heard this before it is EXACTLY what I was refferign to . A lack of critical thinking.
You are 100% entitl;ed to your position. We cant think for ourselves and without an explicit source tellign us rape is bad we cant know its bad (luckily you claim to have found a source rape is bad based on yusing guf, but if not you wouldnt know rape is bad, correct?)but be clear on thsi point. You do not beleive we can think for ourselves. Everything needs a source, if not for a gemara telling us thorns are prickly we wouldnt know it. If not for a source telling us Rape is bad or worse than stealing we wouldn’t know it.
I can live with this position of yours. but be clear and bold dont be wishy washy“It’s less severe than many other sins. However the grand scale that he did the smaller sin on, adds up.”
Lol, this is a new argument. do you have a source for it? So how many rapes would be worse than stealing a pen? Is raping 6 million people worse than stealing a pen?“Do you need me to source for you the idea that one sin plus one sin equals two sins and therefore equals more punishment?”
Yes, under your rubric doing 2 aveiros that get malkos is without question “better” than an aveira that gets misa
ditto for 3, 10, 1000 etcI’m confused so if a person has a choice to eat cheilev or steal once, he should eat cheilev, twice? 10 times? 1000 times. At what point does it stealing become worse?
At any rate do you not see how you have totally abandoned your entire second premise. Namely that worse punishment equals worse sin. It now doesn’t apply if there are lots of lower sins.
but what if it was a really big “lower sin” If Hitler only said once “lets kill all the JEws” that wouldn’t be many small sins.
Or would it, just so you can stick to your untenable position ?“Don’t see how that is different than anything I’ve been saying all along”
Because it goes against your entire thesis. since inciting mass murder gets a lower punishment than stealing, according to you it is not as bad .
Put mass murder aside. whats worse hiring a hit man (inciting 1 murder) or stealing?“Did a rabbi really say this???”
more than one. I heard this from Rabbi Shurkin years ago. and more recently Rav of shul (almost verbatim the same thing both made the sedom refrence, Rabbi shurkin used the specific midrashim like they would all steal a shava peruta to avoid being culpable.
Leshitascha they were right. If a group of us rob a man blind by each stealing < a peruta. We are not as bad as someone who stole a dollar . CorrectKY
As mentioned earlier,
YWN seems to have been glicthy lately, I’m not sure if my you noted my post (starting “Had ימ”ש been ח”ו a Cohen…”There are 2 points there that I don’t want lost:
1) Lets look at motive for a moment. Beis din is not equipped to take motive into account. surely you agree the poor person who stole to feed his family did a “lower averia” than the rich person who stole to spite the poor man.
Do I need a raaya that the rich man is worse? True I have one from Dovid Hamelech, but how did HE know, was this some sort of nevuah?
Granted beis din treats them the same, but that doesnt mean their act was the same.2) you asked ““Rare or חילול שבת” Which?”
And I gave an (excellent?) answer saying better to do chilul shabbos in that case. Clearly my answer was driven to prevent the woman from getting rape. Even if you don’t like the specific answer, Imagine a posek trying to come up with a way to “protect” the woman. Is that a bad thing? Is that a sign of favoring western values over the Torah?“However In heaven, they can and do judge based on grama as well, ”
Yes!
So is it impossible to beleive that in shomayim they punish a rapist worse than a thief?
Clearly you agree that IS the fact that the punishment is lighter by beis din is not the be all end all in determining severity“surely you agree the poor person who stole to feed his family did a “lower averia” than the rich person who stole to spite the poor man
.No. I don’t. Stealing is stealing.”nu nu its a machloikes you and Dovid Hamelech
“A king has the right to extra curricular judgmental leeway.
So David hamelech could also punish for intent.”Again, WHY would he punished for intent? IF the “stealing is stealing” who cares about intent?
Does intent make the act worse yes or no? I cant follow your position“Ask your rav please to explain please the following”
Are you quoting something? I cant find that online anywhere
SO forcing an eishes is h is worse than a besulah. what does that proveAnd are you forgetting the story ? she introduced herself as his siter it wasnt a case of nenas in the classical sense as far as I’m aware
And even if it was, what does this prove that Avimelech doesnt hink rape is bad either. Shkoyach your in good company
As you may know shechem was punished SEVERELY for his act so I’m not sure what you are provingWe find raping an arusa is worst than an eishes ish. An arusa is sekula, but an eishes ish is chenek.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.