Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment?

“pps if a worldview shaped by clear (to me) rayoos from multiple georahs plus an explicit rambam that another poster posted her, is warped, im proud to have such warped thinking.”

Absolutly!
but slow down

I missed the raayaos. True you brought rayyos to the general principle, but that was never being debated
Our discussion was whether it was absolute (particulary regarding bein adom lachaveiro) .I’m not even sure rayyos is the right word its an explicit gemara in several places that severity is based on onesh

and I”m not sure what Rambam you are referring to. The Ramabm says explicitly in several places that there are exceptions

At any rate I was under the impression that you (now) agree that there ARE exceptions.
Just that this isnt one of them.
Is thes last line of mine mistaken?

“we need not debate “slippery slope””
We definitely don’t, so thank you for not going there . Ive found that slippery slope is a last ditch argument made to support an untenable position. It can be (and has been) used to support or oppose absolutely anything on earth .

Before leaving though, if you dont mind responding to my above questuion, just so that I have your psotion absolulty right, because it seems to be shifting a bit. (that may be my poor memory)

Here it is again
you agree that there ARE exceptions. to the general principle
Just that this isnt one of them.

correct?

“i’ll stick with trying to accept hashems opinion wether or not i understand it.”
Lol
youre funny

Before leaving though, if you dont mind responding to my above question, just so that I have your position absolulty right, because it seems to be shifting a bit. (that may be my poor memory/understanding)

Here it is again
you agree that there ARE exceptions. to the general principle
Just that this isnt one of them.

correct?

The difference between neder and shavouh is that neder is issur cheftze whereas shavuoh is issur gavre.

Neder is chal on shavouh but not vice versa for the above reason.

KY

“Do I agree this is an exception? No. Why would I?”

got it thanks
The “why would I” is very telling as is EXACTLY what I was referring to in my orignal comment.

“Yes as I said before As bad as you feel rape is, and it is, לשה”ר is worse.
Why does that bother you?”

It bothers me becasue it isnt true. Ask someone who has had both done to them.

“Simply because we all are נכשול in לשה”ר constantly so we’ve lost our sensitivity to it.”
So if you heard of a society that was perfect in lashon harah but was nichshal in rape, that would be a better society than ours?

and you are stuck saying to the girl who told her rapist “Take my money leave me alone”
that she was wrong, she should have let the person be meanes her since stealing is worse.
(Again, this is your position right?) Something that absolutely makes no sense

This idea that you cant use your mind or senses to evaluate things is foreign to Judaism.
The Gemara asks regarding “anaf eitz avos” if it is some other min, and syas it cant be that becasue they are posinous and has thorns and דרכיה דרכי נועם

The Gemara does not then say, so we see that it isnt poisonous and the thorns dont hurt?
That question would make no sense. We see that it is and they do.

And I’m not sure what you are proving from the chofetz Chayim.
either way it is a rayah against your narrow position.
There he says Rechilus is worse than murder.
Yet murder has a worse punishment

So either it is yet another exception
Or it isnt literal (If only it was literal, could you imagine there were only 7 things Hashem hated? things would sure be easier)

KY

“Had the torA outright said use a thorn bush though, you don’t see the gemarahs saying, nah, that can’t be. It hurts to much”

Oh absolutely!
but the Torah DOESNT say stealing is worse than rape. YOU are.

And before you say that the Torah does say it based on the rule that worse punishment = worse aveira.
you acknowledge that the rule isnt absolute there are exceptions “I agreed there are exceptions. Provided there is a good basis for it.”

you just don’t think there is a “good basis” to say that rape is worse than stealing. You don’t view what we all think/see is not a good basis. You are looking for a Passuk to say that it is worse. You are unwilling (or unable) to think critically and say wait, obviously it is worse.

“A פסוק במשלי is about as good of a basis that I can ask for in my book”
I’m not sure what you are trying to show from Mishlei?
Absolutely! and it practically tells us that severity of an act is NOT determined based on onesh

“I was just looking to show that לשה”ר is basically worse than a homely bunch of sins”
So Lashon harah is worse than say chilul shabbos.
Of the 7 avieros listed (gaiva, lying, murder, thinking evil plans, running to do evil things , testifying falsely, and causing fuights עֵינַ֣יִם רָ֭מוֹת לְשׁ֣וֹן שָׁ֑קֶר וְ֝יָדַ֗יִם שֹׁפְכ֥וֹת דָּם־נָקִֽי׃ לֵ֗ב חֹ֭רֵשׁ מַחְשְׁב֣וֹת אָ֑וֶן רַגְלַ֥יִם מְ֝מַהֲר֗וֹת לָר֥וּץ לָֽרָעָה׃ יָפִ֣יחַ כְּ֭זָבִים עֵ֣ד שָׁ֑קֶר וּמְשַׁלֵּ֥חַ מְ֝דָנִ֗ים בֵּ֣ין אַחִֽים׃. SIX! dont have an onesh in the classic sense

Interestingly these are all bein adom lechaveiro which fits my paradigm nicely (that greater punishment = greater sin applies to bein adom lamakom)

I’m not sure how you deal with this growing list of exceptions.
Why doesnt the Gemara yoma (or other places the general rule is listed) ask this question?

“I quoted a gemarah
You stated that’s a prime example of warped thinking
To which I responded I sound to have the gemarahs warped, your call, logic”

I dont know what gemara you are reffering to. you dont have ANY proof on your side*. Granted, I dont have an explicit Gemara that says rape is worse than theft either . Our discussion is whether I need one.

your argument is that without a gemara/passuk we cant know things.
My argument is unless a Gemara/passuk etc says the oppsoite of what we see, we can (and must!) rely on our critical thinking

* as a reminder don’t get confused. Your argument is NOT that we always follow greater punishment, as you grant there are exceptions. nor is the argument if we generally follow greater punishment, because that was never in dispute

And if you dont mind just so I have this clear, If a single girl is being raped r”l . IT is wrong for her to let the assailant rob her instead since that would be lifnei iver causing him to do a worse aveira. correct?

“. The rule and it’s exceptions are really all a single expression of the rule makers will. ”

ah but you are forgetting a piece.
As we discussed in the very beginning there is also an innate sense of morality that the ribono shel olam put in the briyah. Even if He didnt command us not to kill we would still be expected not to. Moroever., even not knowing isnt an excuse. granted for beis din to kill you need hasraah, but this is by a Jew. If a goy kills he would be killed without hasraah,
what would you tell the goy if he asked “but how was I to know killing is wrong?” ?

Lets take this a step further. There is no lav “though shalt not rape”
Yet you acknowledge that it is wrong, for us and for a ben noach. The entire city of shchem was killed for this aveira. but again how were they to know? what azahara did they have?

“What means in essence that each time, you evaluated the two sins, and decided, yes , since the one with the greater punishment seems to be a greater sin (or the greater sin has the greater punishment, same thing) i can follow the rule stating that greater punishment equals greater sin.
But in reality you haven’t followed the rule at all, because you have already arrived at that conclusion yourself, before you are willing to accept that rule.”

not at all. I have no idea why cheilev is worse than nevilah. It isnt “logical” to me, SO when deciding which is worse, chazal tell us how to determine it. Driving on shabbos doesnt seem that terrible, so chazal say look at the onesh. But if I ask you whats worse getting hit with 1 psi of force vs 10 psi . Would you say well they are equal since both get malkos ?
what about getting hit or having an arm cut off?
Well, obviously hit is worse since it gets malkos, however when an arm is cut off r”l it is nosein letashlumin so there is no malkos. (the hitting in this case was not in public so no boshes, tzar was less than a shava peruta no ripui, sheves or nezek either)
Putting aside the sheer illogicality of maintaining that hitting someone is worse than maiming them (I know yet ANTOHER exception)
My point is the whole exercise of evaluating these aveiros in this way is strange. Is thatreall y how you think aveiros are evaluated?

In fact, I lost track of many of the wonderful marei mekomos we both brought , did any of them weigh severity of bein adom lechaveiro based on punishment (Not agadata punishment, I mean the classic halachic punishment of misas besi din, kareis, misah bidei shomayim etc ) ? We had many many that didn’t , do we have any that do?

If I say ” I’d rather get hit than maimed ” Does that make me a heretic ?
Is the girl who says “please don’t rape just steal my money” a heretic because she isnt following this rule?

(If you are saying that SHE can prefer to be robbed, but WE can’t prefer that she gt robbed, you’d have to clarfiy the difference)

We find:

תלמוד בבלי מסכת יבמות דף קיט עמוד א
אמר רב נחמן אמר רבה בר אבוה: רישא דאיסור כרת – חששו, סיפא דאיסור לאו – לא חששו. אמר רבא: מכדי הא דאורייתא והא דאורייתא, מה לי איסור כרת
מה לי איסור לאו!

Does Rovo hold that punishment does not matter or people transgress the lesser easier so the chazal where more choshesh on it? The fact that he indicates that they are both min haTorah seems to tells us that punishment should not matter.

The exceptions

Generally a worse punishment indicates a worse aveira.
However, we have uncovered many exceptions. I.e. cases where an aveira does not have sucha severe punishment, yet it is worse than other aveiros with more severe punishments:

(in the order we presented them over the two threads on the subject obviously some are stronger texamples than others) )
1) Being a Zionist (very big aveira in your view but no punishment)
2) sinas chinam (no classic onesh, yet worse thn gimmel chamuros Yoma 9b)
3) hashcasa zera (no classic punishment yet seforim talk about how serious it is)
4) Sacrificing all kids to Molech (doesnt carry misah , yet obviosly worse than sacrificing some )
5) being boel goy, (no onesh, other than kanoin pogin if caught in the act)
6) Kiruv to Erva ( is yeharog veal yaavor yet no onesh)
7) The situation around an act makes it worse, liek stealing from poor vs rich yet onesh is the same (Shmuel 2:12)
8) murder (is worse than chilul shabbos have to give life for murder not shabbos)
9) Lashon harah (no earthly punishment but sichas mussar says frok the fact that it gets tzoras see it is more serious)
10) embarrasing someone (better to jump in fire “keilu horgo”))
11) swearing fasley (same as #9 gets tzoras)
12) Gasos ruach (ditto)
13) gezel (ditto)
14) stinginess/tzaros ayin (ditto)
15) treating bnos yisoel “kalos/lightly” (sanhedrin 75 b says better person died than talk to girl)
16) Destroying anothers property (BK 60b according to Rashi cant destry property to save life)
17) Nivul hames (Binyan tziyon 170 can’t take deceased’s organs to save life)
18) עֵינַ֣יִם רָ֭מוֹת (passuk Mishlei one of the worst aveiros lists it with יָדַ֗יִם שֹׁפְכ֥וֹת דָּם־נָקִֽי yet no onesh in the classic sense )
19) Lying (same)
20) לֵ֗ב חֹ֭רֵשׁ מַחְשְׁב֣וֹת אָ֑וֶ (same)
21) same
22) פִ֣יחַ כְּ֭זָבִים עֵ֣ד שָׁ֑קֶר (same)
23) מְשַׁלֵּ֥חַ מְ֝דָנִ֗ים בֵּ֣ין אַחִֽים (same)

As a reminder the list of onshim to determine seveity is : Sekilah, sereifa Hereg, chenek, Kares, misha bidei shomayim malkos Rambam Avos 2:1

Plus you suggested that the reason a Beulah has no punishment is because it’s so bad one can’t get cleansed so “easily ””

I suggested that as a a possibility. I don’t know the reason. and that is ok.

“Abortion”

I’m confused according to the ranking of punishments, for a JEw to perform an abortion theres no misah, nor kareis nor malkos, theres a fine. Presumably if the woman requests it there isnt even a fine. Just so I understand yo u correctly, are you saying for a JEw to perform an abortion (at the mothers request) is less of an averia than “stealing a pen” ? (I’m not disputing the point I just find it surprising that that is your position and looks like we may have uncovered yet another exception,)

(as an aside, tzoras is a punishment,”
Not in this sense see the Rambam Avos 2:1 for the list that we generally follow, you’ll note tzoras isnt there)

I am genuinely trying to understand your view. I find it fascinating

I still have a few questions.
2 where in my last post that went up the same time as yours .

1) Which is a worse act sacrificing all chidren to moilech, or some, and how do you know?
2) whcih is a worse act hitting someone in a light way (where there is no tashlumin so he gets malkos) or maiming someone (where he pays and deosnt get malkos) . and how do you know?
3) Is a girl who says steal my money but dont rape me, over lifnei iver becasue she is causing her assailant to do a worse aveira? what about a bystander who makes the offer ? ( Ive asked this question a few times, If you asked it I missed the answer)

KY apologies
my numbers got jumbled

21 should be רַגְלַ֥יִם מְ֝מַהֲר֗וֹת לָר֥וּץ לָֽרָעָה
24 is hitting someone (gets malkos whereas maiming someone doesnt)

“Number four is In rashi”
I’m sorry I’m not sure which Rashi you are referring to.
IT is a Gemara Sanhedrin 64b if that helps .

And again to be clear, I’m not asking why it doesnt get a more severe punishment. I’m asking how do you know it is a worse averia (assuming it is)

Here are my current questions again for ease of reference

1) Which is a worse act sacrificing all chidren to moilech, or some, and how do you know?
2) whcih is a worse act hitting someone in a light way (where there is no tashlumin so he gets malkos) or maiming someone (where he pays and deosnt get malkos) . and how do you know?
3) Is a girl who says steal my money but dont rape me, over lifnei iver because she is causing her assailant to do a worse aveira? what about a bystander who makes the offer ?

“There are many sources that doing the same sin multiple times is worse than doing it once.”

Again so if not for the sources you’d be unsure.
Killing one is as bad as 10 or six million. All get the exact punishment.
On second thought Hitler (Godwin’s law is another brilliant law of the internet, better than Poe’s law) never killed anyone. I guess his evil is overrated. Stealing a pen makes you worse than Hitler correct?

You don’t have to answer. I’m worried you won’t find a source and will be unsure

Abortion according to the ramba is a murder without a punishment just like killing a trepha. Remember that there was the famous machlokes with the node biyuhda over if killing a trepha is yehorag veaal yavoer, and we pasken that it is yehorag veeal yaavor.

Based on this Menachem Ziemba paskened that when a Nazi ordered a Jewish Doctor to preform an abortion or he will be shot, that he was michuyav to give up his life because the Nazi was the rodef not the baby, and abortion is yehorag veaal yavoer. (this had nothing to do with shaas hashmad)

The Noda Beyehuda above is in Second Volume YD 210. ubiq, The Binyan Tzion quotes this and explains that there is a difference to learn for the future or save someone being here as mentioned in the above. When it comes to abortion, see Oholas Mishna, (7,7) and the Rambam Hilchas Rotzeach (1,9) about rodaf.