Can rishonim be wrong?

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  • #609537
    simbin
    Member

    I just wanted to reiterate, in case there were any sfeikos created in anybody’s mind, that no-one today has enough knowledge or any power to say that Rishinim were wrong. Let alone on a news site forum.

    #957039
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I just wanted to reiterate, in case there were any sfeikos created in anybody’s mind, that no-one today has enough knowledge or any power to say that Rishinim were wrong. Let alone on a news site forum.

    Just like Rav Aharon Kotler never read Tolstoy 🙂

    From the good old days:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/is-learning-science-spiritually-dangerous/page/2#post-99345

    #957040
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I just wanted to reiterate, in case there were any sfeikos created in anybody’s mind, that no-one today has enough knowledge or any power to say that Rishinim were wrong. Let alone on a news site forum.

    And as I am apt to say, a Rishon is only not possible to be wrong if he speaks ex cathedra. If he does not speak ex cathedra, he could be wrong.

    #957041
    akuperma
    Participant

    The are many matters about which Rishonim disagreed, Therefore some were right and some were wrong. If they had all agreed on everything, there would be no need for Achronim to carry on the debates. The question is therefore a classic example of a “Klutz Kasha” since on its own terms the answer is obvious.

    #957042
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    And the Moon Walks were Faked as its a spirtual place and not a physical place

    #957043
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The are many matters about which Rishonim disagreed, Therefore some were right and some were wrong. If they had all agreed on everything, there would be no need for Achronim to carry on the debates. The question is therefore a classic example of a “Klutz Kasha” since on its own terms the answer is obvious.

    Come on! Elu V’Elu means they were both right (just don’t ask me how)

    #957044
    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    I remember the chazon ish writing that the ritva was wrong. At least he thought he can say so.

    #957045
    simbin
    Member

    Oy! I don’t know here you guys were educated, but argumentation DOES NOT MEANthat one side is wrong, especially in Torah! Also, Achronim are not only in existence if Rishonim argue.

    Finally, my point was that even if Rishonim could be wrong, there is NOBODY today that can say that, unless some other Rishon said it.

    Im Rishonim k’malachim, anu k’bnei adam. Im Rishonim k’bnei adam, anu kachamorim.

    #957046
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    1. There are Mitzius questions (e.g. Who was R’ Yehoshua Ben Korcha and when did he live? How old was Yitzchak at the tiem of the Akeida?) Which obviously have a right answer and wrong answers

    2. We see from this rishonim themselves. Look at some of the Rashbams in Bava Basra and see how he refers to some counter opinions (e.g. HEVEL, etc)

    3. NEVERTHELESS, we are not able to take sides. WE can’t say PLONI RISHON was wrong. We can observe from the nature of the machlokes that one is wrong and one is right, we can’t choose, and we should do our best to understand both sides and how they got to their opinion

    #957047

    Obviously the other thread was full of apikursus and kifirah, that’s why it was closed. Why was this thread allowed to continue down that path?

    #957048
    Toi
    Participant

    simbin- az beseder, atah chamor.

    #957049
    oomis
    Participant

    Come on! Elu V’Elu means they were both right (just don’t ask me how) ”

    IS that what Elu v’Elu means, or does it mean that no matter which side is actually correct, BOTH sides have the merit and kedusha of being Hashem-inspired?

    Whether or not I follow a specific Rov’s p’sak personally, I still have kovod for the fact that this is a person of great Torah learning. The Rishonim might have disagreed with each other at times, but their words are still holy.

    #957050
    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    Moshe Rabeinu was wrong a few times. Amram his father never sinned, yet made a mistake in divorcing his wife.

    Of course a Rishon can be wrong!

    We are just so much wronger.

    #957051
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Simbin I am not sure if you are serious but Is the moon a physical object?

    #957052
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    SecularFrummy,

    I think your original OP question belies a false dilemma fallacy. You are attempting to force a choice between two options: either the Rishonim were infallible (i.e., superhuman or deity) or we must find a means to determine their errors, and question their rulings. This is fundamentally not logical.

    When I was in high school, I once solved a long mathematical problem and came up with a different solution than the textbook’s. I brought the problem to the teacher, who took a look and realized that there was an error in the textbook. I was praised for my work and for not being satisfied with blindly accepting the textbook’s solution as correct by default.

    Looking back, I think that ultimately this incident had a more negative effect on my future learning than a positive one. For a long time afterwards, if I solved a problem and arrived at a different answer from the textbook or the teacher, I would be more inclined to stick to my guns and argue that my solution was correct. After all, textbooks are not perfect and can have errors! It turns out that errors in high school math textbooks are exceedingly rare, and errors in high school student math homework are common.

    Rather than coming up with my own solution, and dismissing the textbook’s solution as wrong and ending my thoughts there, I would have been much better served by digging deeper into what I viewed as the wrong solution, working backwards and discovering my own mistakes.

    Yes, the acharonim, rishonim, tannaim, amoraim, the sages of the Sanhedrin, the prophets, judges, and our forefathers were all human beings. Human beings are not infallible and can make mistakes. It is much more likely, however, for me to make a mistake in my Torah learning than our sages, so ultimately it is much more productive to look for my own mistakes than it is to look for theirs if the answers don’t line up.

    It is also most likely that if there was a mistake, it has already been addressed by another sage.

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