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MikeC – SEE MIKE it’s like this – Should and have to are two different things!
Mods – Please Close!
My mashgiach in my previous yeshiva encouraged me to date girls through myself, without a third party involved, because he felt I can handle it properly. To others, he advised using a shadchan. So I would say using shadchan is great if you need it.
Mike C – Read above my post about should and have to. You just don’t get it.
Since when is an eidetic memory a prerequisite for a Gadol?
Here is what I do get: You have an agenda. You admitted it. You probably feel like it is better for K’lal Yisrael if everyone listens to you on this. That does not give you any right to misrepresent sources and fake Halachah.
it would be wonderful in theory not to need a shadchan. however we are not malachim. the rambam says men should stay far away from women.
If every man/boy was able to get to know women/girls on their own many being overly tempted to do all kinds of avaros.
This leaves us little choice but to have a shadchan.
if someone is older and by chance knows someone single it’s no avara to ask them for a date(especially widows and widowers) but in general especially with young boys and girls its a terribly dangerous and naive.
there is a reason why we use a shadchan,and we shouldn’t be poretz gedder.
okeedokee. i think this is the wackiest thread ever seen. i propose (pardon the pun) to be the shadchan. for who? michael c and…. basket of radishes. cmon. einfal of the century.
MichaelC: I’m still waiting for you to “refute my refutations”.
“After World War 2 many people were single, and older (Holocaust survivors) so the Rabbanim made Heterim for marriage without Shadchanim (when media was still in black and white). However these were not the Midos Chassidic people. The ‘holier’ Yidden even in this time with these circumstances used Shadchanim.”
This is offensive and you lose any legitimacy you may have had. Who the heck are you to judge people who went throught the holocaust and then did or didn’t use a Shadchan? It looks like you copy pasted this from some sick web site, please edit that out in your future postings. Edit out the moral high ground when talking about a situation you have never had to face.
MichaelC: You admitted in an earlier post that your agenda is to get everyone to use Shadchanim. My only “agenda” is to ensure that someone doesn’t twist sources to make Halachah say something it doesn’t. If you want to say that you feel it is inappropriate to meet members of the opposite gender by any way other than through a Shadchan, that’s a fine opinion to have. But don’t misrepresent sources to make it like a Halachah.
Your response to my refutations is “You’re right, they’re not mentioned but it’s obvious that a Shadchan was used.” Just so we’re clear on what this means, you used a source to prove your point but your source is only a proof if you assume your point is always true. Nice proof.
So, once again, you have no source. By the way, the Gemara you reference was two Amorai’m, not Tannaim (Yevamos 37b, I believe but I could be off by a daf or two; it is an Amud b around 15-20 lines down). And the Gemara there clearly gives two answers how such a thing worked. In one of them they sent Shlichim a few weeks early but according to the other answer they would be Meyached the girl (Machlokes Rishonim as to what that means) when they got there, without a Shaliach.
No that’s stupid advice. Part of the reason there is a shidduch crisis is because of the over-reliance on the third party. In earlier decades Kosher Yidden met on their own, through the shule functions or whatever. They made beautiful families and the infrastructure for latter day ascetics to malign.
The crisis is too serious to be relagated to silly arbitrary rules like not talking to a girl on your own.
So you keep on your ways, and report to us when you are engages, married, and have children. You are too wrapped up in labels and
affectations to see the reality of life I am afraid.
Yes use a Shadachan if you wish but don’t deny others how they want to go about this.
Regarding the holocaust and shadchanim if that Rov said that there were more Kosher Yidden over others that is disgraceful you are wasting your time talking to him.
This is a very sad thread to read but tell us of your progress.
“For example Yaakov Avinu was 84, and never used a Shadchan. So if you are 84 and have not sinned all your life like Yaakov then you can do it without a Shadchan.”
Who says that was the reason why he never needed a shadchan? Maybe if like Yaakov, you leave your parents’ home and live on your own, you should not need a shadchan.
“Moshe Rabbeinu did use a Shadchan, this is clear, when Yisro said ‘I am giving you my daughter as a wife’.”
He met Yocheved at the well (similar to Yaakov Avinu and Rochel), before he met Yisro. Yisro was his FIL not his shadchan.
“Shimshon never used a Shadchan, but Talmud Sotah reproaches him for this (he went after his eyes so the philistines gorged his eyes), we can learn from this if you don’t use a Shadchan and follow your eyes you will end up marrying a goy (Samson married philistine Delilah).”
Hoo boy! I never used a shadchan and I guarantee you neither my husband, my daughter-in-law, nor my son-in-law are goyim. Shimshon was a man who was nichshal, and for that he was punished, not for not having a shadchan. If he had a shadchan, he wouldn’t have lusted after Delilah?????
“Dovid Hamelech never used a Shadchan with Bat Sheva as Talmud Shabbos says she was destined to him from the Six Days of Creation.”
As are all our zivugim before we are even born.
“Rabbi Akiva dated Rochel without a Shadchan (this was when he was a Am Haaretz).”
A shadchan would NEVER have redt that shidduch, so B”H no shadchan was involved, or we would all be the poorer for not experiencing R’ Akiva’s gadlus and example of mesiras nefesh.
Mike C -Your problem is that you think there can only be one way in Yiddishkeit. You started a topic to impress on e/o that there is only one way. Your attitude has been very poor in acknowledging your shortcomings. Had you came here and said -While the Halacha permits getting engaged and married without a Shadchan inbetween, the preferable way is to use a Shadchan. If you would have posted this, I highly doubt most people would have criticized you.
Also, please don’t bring Rayos what the Halacha is from stories in the Tanach. Because if you do that, then people can say -What about Yehudah? I guess it’s Mutter to take a Zonah as long as there was a Shadchan inbetween. And of course we know this isn’t the case!
MichaelC: That is just insulting and entirely uncalled for. You have no reason to call anyone who won’t listen to your made-up Halacha as lacking of knowledge in Torah Sheba’al Peh. I’m not going to brag or claim anything that I have learned, but I will say that I think I have “discovered” Torah Sheba’al Peh.
Tosfos(kesubos 4a) discusses a scenario where the husband of a dead woman proposes to her sister at the burial. Tosfos says that is called shiduchin. It is clear from context that there was no “shadchan”, and we can infer what the term shiduchin refers to.
“Number 2) is something you may have not discoverd yet, but don’t worry with time you will. “
Uncalled-for comment Michael. Menschlechkeit is also in the Oral Law. Please re-read all the parts you accidentally skipped over the first time.
michaelc: Ok i made my point, i am not expecting anyone to listen to me. Moderators you can close the thread if you want.
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