can i date a girl without Shadchan????????/

Allow me to clarify.

Especisally the G’mora Kiddushin issue.

I am addressing the issue of dating without a shadchan, and not at all the issue of the bar scene. I amm talking about if a specific person is on your radar, do you need to find a ‘shadchan’ or can you go on a formal date without a shadchan. (not just hanging out)

So here is the g’mora.

The issue is as follows, there are 3 formal ways of kedushin

a) Giving money/value/ring. (all the same)

b) Giving a document written; im taking you for a wife. (no money or ring).

3) Doing what married people do, and verbally stating; “with this act we are married”.

In regards to the 3rd method, the g’mora states that if done without a shadchan or some other formality, (i dont recall if ‘T’noim’ are needed,) then Rav gave malkus because it is not appropriate.

And thats the end of the story.

to Halevi;

Whoa chill.

Remind me not to get involved on this site.

WHo twisted your knickers in a knot?

1) I said shadchan OR some other formality, im in middle of a report and dont recall the exact procedure required.

2) The gmora uses the terminology of “found her in the market” and did what he did. who ever thought they did it in the street/ OBVIOUSLY they moved indoors.

3) Shadchan IS mentioned. It is ‘savlan’, and the gmora and choshen mishpat discuss the details of how much they get paid. divided into starter middle and close’r. (Does he get a save? lol)

4) why are you gratuitously denigrating how much i did or did not learn. (YOU SAY; “I did not see any other Places, nor did i see this gmora”) Are you a talmid chochem/kollel/yeshiva bochur?

is this where torah leads you?

5) Finally, i did not dismiss anyone else’s learning. i merely expressed my point of view. Apparently it was too much for you.

Have a nice life.

To your question, yes you theoretically can date her like that, but it is not seen as appropriate in many circles.

MichaelC – I think in your case -you should listen to your Rov. You seem to have a unique case. But you should know, this isn’t the Halacha, a man can get married to a woman without having a Shaddchan inbetween!

MichaelC – The only Minhag it can be is a Minhag Shtus -unless you can bring a proof from a Sefer!

Health: A Minhag does not have to have proof from a Sefer. However, the Poskim do point out that the only Minhagim to which that Yerushalmi refers is a “Minhag Vassikim that dates back to the time of the Gemara” or earlier, if I got the quote perfect.

Sam – Correct. If he had a Minhag handed down -Ben Achar Ben, I wouldn’t say it was a Minhag Shtus. But the way he was talking (obviously I can’t be 100% sure) it sounds like he is a BT and I don’t think he has any Mesorah for Minhagim.

“Since I have had this psak, have decided to stop going on chat rooms and private messaging women, trying to seduce them to marriage.”

“MichaelC: Did your Rav explain why you can’t?”

After reading his most recent comment, you need a reason WHY he shouldnt have a shadchan set him up? Unless seduce is a poor, unfortunate choice of words, would you want him approaching YOUR daughter? He sounds like the type of guy every father warns their daughter about.

MichaelC – Your Rav did not give you a psak halacha, because there is none; he gave you an eitza tova based upon his personal connection with your personality and history. The Rav may offer a differant opinion to soneone else.

“therefore if people nowadays just ask women to go on a date with them, both parties are more likely to sin.”

I can understand using this argument just to date at the parents house, but if you’re going “OUT”, what’s the difference if you arranged it or the Shadchan?

Hashem ultimately is our Shadchan. Yaakov Avinu did not have a formal shadchan. He met Rochel on his own at the well. If it was good enough for them, why should it not be equally appropriate for anyone who does not want to go through a shadchan? If you are uncomfortable with the idea or your rov holds that a shadchan is mandatory, then by all means you should follow your rov’s derech and ONLY go through shadchanim.

I can see both sides of the issue, and I see no reason for disharmony. The truth is that nowadays it is on the rare side that people even meet each other in any way other than through some third party, even if it is only through being introduced at a social event. That, too, is being a shadchan, though certainly not in the classic sense. Seriously, don’t we have more pressing issues?

“they was edited out”

…they were edited out.

MikeC -“There is someone who both parties are culpable to. This makes them less likely to sin.”

Oh yea, of course. Just like Yoseph Hatzaddik had the image of his father appear to him. Can you just picture it, you want to sin and the image of your Shadchan (I’ll leave the description of her appearance up to your imagination.) suddenly appears and invokes the fear of G-d into you.

I really don’t think so. If you’re the type to do Aveiros on dates, then it won’t make a difference if you were set up by a Shadchan or not!

Can we close this thread please? It’s just one poster driving an agenda over and over again.

Even the Mechaber would be matir to have a coke, and according the Rema regular beer is not a problem either.

I like beer also.

So if I’m holding of chanan by shaar issurim, and nat bar nat, you better believe I’m drinking beer in bars.

To be frankly, the kashrus of beer scares me.

I drink it because alle essen duh, and various kashrus people I’ve spoken to are on board.

But, really, why?

There is no law that they can’t put other ingredients in. And I don’t think there is a labeling requirement. A certain kashrus person told us not to drink Leinenkugel’s Red because it has red coloring. How do I know that Moose Drool in Montana doesn’t have red coloring?

As far as keilim, the craft brewers are all making flavored beers as well. Do I need to start relying on things like stam keilim einum bnai yoman, and risk the wrath of hello99 that the safek is not a rov to heter?

I suppose we can also add in that basar is pogem beer, and most tarfus is basar (and safek ???? is muttar in chutz laaretz).

However, recall the clams in the beer at budweiser a couple of years ago. I thought that really should have been a call to us that our beer is questionable.

But, I like craft beer. I do. And I like drinking it. At bars. So I drink.

I’ll be Soseir your first few proofs and leave it at that. You admit b Yaakov, why should age matter?

There’s no proof from Yitzchok, he couldn’t leave Eretz Yisroel.

Moshe met Yisro’s daughters on his own first.

You really want to bring a proof from Dovid and Batsheva? Read the story again and tell me how he first saw her.

Nowhere in the Mishnah in Ta’anis does it mention a Shadchan. P’shat is that the girls said that themselves.

Just because you can prove that Shadchanim existed doesn’t mean that no one was ever allowed to date without them.