Can following a Chumra become a Chilul Hashem

ZD: Actually we do. Unless you happen to believe they we can’t rank that Rav Moshe zt’l was a bigger godol than Rabbi Lord Baron Immanuel Jakobovits zt’l, for example.

שומו שמים
חזון ישעיהו
The same usernames who are supposedly overly worried for a Chumra become a Chilul Hashem
Are the same fellows on another thread bending over backwards defending the ultimate Chilul Hashem?!

dullreliance: Yes.

To answer the title, I think so – see the chapter on “Mishkal haChassidus” in Mesillas Yesharim.

I cannot tell you how many people where turned on by this PSAK,
but I can tell you alot of people were turned off

A rav’s obligation is to pasken the halocho as he perceives it to be,
regardless of whether the halocho is going to turn people on or off.

DY,
1. Read it again. Rav Moshe was talking about before giur. He said that they should be mekareved and then undergo giur l’chumra. He said that some people do not want to because they are black.
2, The Ethiopians in question have undergone conversion or are children of converts.

Dull & Yitczchok, for a non-Jew the night follows the day. Therefor, if a non-Jew keeps Shabbat but soes melacha on Motzash he is in the clear.

Ran, true but he cannot dance a two weddings. If they are safek mamzerim there is at least a safek if he is Jewish. As I have previously posted, stam yaynam is rabbinic so the we are lenient. One who says differently is disagreeing with Chazal and all Savoraim, Gaonim, Rishonim and Achronim who came before him.

DY,
1. Read the first part on the previous page “הצריכם להצילם יש גירותם קודם גם אבל
נפשות ש״ספק ישראל, . Thus he says that the people who do not want to mekarev them even before giur l’chumra are racists.
2. Please cite where Rav Moshe says that. He may have been referring to a situation where the treif ingredient is listed on the package (FDA regs require that it be listed if it is at least 1%).
3. What about chillul Hashem, causing hatred, safek inui gerim and not loving them? IMHO the Badatz’ action is chassidut shel shtut
4. According to Barkan CEO Col. (Res.) Erez Wiener “The Badatz [Edah Haharedit] is a body that uses the commercial power it has accumulated in order to establish criteria that are not always halakhic and consistent. Many times they are meant to preserve the status of Badatz,” says Wiener, and tells of his story with the members of the Edah Haharedit.
“I turned to them about a year ago and we wanted to examine a commercial possibility, because I do not have a kashrut problem. I have five kosher seals and I feel at peace and confident in drinking my wine and selling it as kosher, but this was a commercial consideration and we turned to them, we were in a sort of negotiation process over the large monetary demands and we had reached an agreement, and then they got into all sorts of demands to move people from their jobs, because this one is not religious enough and that one is doesn’t have enough fear of Heaven and all sorts of criteria that I did not like, and in the end I accompanied them politely to the door and gave up on this kashrut.” [Arutz 7]

According to the Jerusalem Post, the chief kashrut supervisor at the Barkan Winery, Yosef Promovitch, told Yediot Aharonot that “there are Ethiopians who know that they are Jews – who have undergone conversion – and there are Ethiopians who are not, who are questionable.”
The Barkan supervisor added that as a blanket rule, workers of Ethiopian origin could not touch wine. “The Badatz is not willing to accept Ethiopians.”

This thread is totally insane. There were Gedolei oilam that had serious doubts about the jewishness of these people. There’s nothing racist about facts- acknowledging, for example, that black men having a higher rate of heart disease than white men is not racist, it is medical fact. Having doubts as to how Jewish these people are in halachic terms is not racist, as seen by the psak shown above by rabanim on equal footing with R’ ovadia, if not bigger. If we’re dealing with those who have not undergone giyur, this is nothing more than liberal nonsense. While R’ Yosef is entitled to his psak, so is the eida. If we’re dealing with after giyur, it depends on who did it, If it was the rabbanut, there’s def makom for chashashos. Bikitzur, this is stupid.

Joseph- I don’t know if anyone on the eida today is as big a Gaon as R ovadia, but the dayanim brought down above certainly were.

“I turned to them about a year ago and we wanted to examine a commercial possibility, because I do not have a kashrut problem. I have five kosher seals……. in the end I accompanied them politely to the door and gave up on this kashrut.”

In short, the potential profits from a 6th hechsher, are not worth the hassles it comes along with, and they are happy with the 5 they do have.

Just curious, who are the FIVE hechsherim on this winery?

How can Chug Chatam Sofer give a hechsher if the Eida does not?

Ugh, I wrote a lengthy post pointing out all the problems (well, maybe just most) in Avi’s post, only to get an error message. No way I’m doing that all again. But, it does remind me of a maaseh with R Elya ztl. Supposedly, he was shtark being loichem feminists, specifically one awful woman in particular who was promoting beliefs antithetical to Torah values. One erev y”k or erev r”h (don’t recall) he dialed someone’s number with whom he wished to speak. Well hashgacha P kicked in, and he misdialed, reaching the very woman whose behavior he had so vigorously attacked. Now, most people would take this as providence, with the hidden message that they were to make peace with the other party. Not so R Elya; he understood that this was the yetzer hara’s plan, and resolved to strengthen his efforts, and drive this machsheifa away once and for all. The end. So while I’m certain the error message was certainly the yetzer hara trying my patience, I am so super lazy, there’s no way I’m retyping the whole long rebuttal I had attempted to post before.

@Avi K-

You said:
1. Toi, we are dealing with people who either have undergone giur or are children of those who have (the main Beta Israel aliya occurred almost forty years ago although there were aliyot before and after). The Eida does not recognize anyone outside their own little circle as being real observant Jews.

2. I saw three hechsherim on Barkan wine: Rabbanut, Badatz Bet Yosef (established by Rav Ovadia – the Bet Yosef is machmir on the percentage of water allowed and once at a wedding RO said “shehakol” on the wine) and Chug Chatam Sofer (Chareidim, mainly Chassidim and mainly in Petach Tikva and Bnei Brak). As Barkan is sold internationally I presume that the other two are non-Israeli and thus do not appear on Israeli labels.

3. I have already listed the kullot that come from this chumra. Scroll up.

Here are the answers. You bet like heck I’m gonna copy this whole thing before posting in case I get another error.

1. That is unverified; you have no idea if that’s true. Even if true, the Eida may be taking issue with the geirus performed, specifically if it wasn’t taken very seriously in the first place, as is their right. Your last statement at the end of this point is blatant motzi shem ra, and you probably just threw it in cuz you don’t like them.

2. How is anything in this point relevant to the conversation. Rabbanut is literally a worthless hechsher, this is not a political opinion, no one in Israel who takes their judaism seriously will eat it. I dont mean chareidim, I mean anyone. My mizrachi relatives wont eat rabbanut, and ive met other mizrachis who refuse to eat it, insisting they refuse to go to hell just for politics. People coming from the USA are simply ignorant about how pathetic a hechsher rabbanut is, and fall prey to the “hebrew words=kosher” syndrome. BBY is not much better, and regarded as nearly worthless by most people. R Ovadia wanted to make a rabbanut style hechsher for sfardim, mostly for instances where rabbanut/ashkenazi kulos rendered the food unkosher for sfardim. It’s not a better hechsher, it just avoids the ashkenazi psakim that sfardim hold to be trief. Secondly, you’ve just unwittingly exposed an utter lack of knowledge on the subject of Israeli hechsherim. CS of BB and PT are two entirely different hechsherim. CSBB was better when R Vosner ztl was alive, now not as good but still decent. CSPT is awful, to quote R Berkowitz- an american, highly regarded, entirely non fanatical posek “having a CSPT hechsher on a product doesn’t make it treif.”
3. No

Now that we have adopted the “ranking system” to determine which psak to follow, what are the criteria in scoring a gadol? What factors do we consider?

Lomdus? Bekius? Charius? Yichus? Middos? Number of Talmidim? Number of Seforim? Followers? The number of press releases? the number of tzedaka campaigns that co-opt their picture? the number of times appears each month in Yated or Hamodia? the number of times they were mesader kiddushin? Any others? What weight is attributed to each factor?