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There is a story floating around about Barkan Winery that wanted the Eidah’s Hechsher. The Eidah told them that the Ethiopian jews who work there can no longer touch the wine because the Eidah does not consider them Jewish, However Rav Ovadiah Joseph, did hold they were jewish.
These are Not Falash Mura who are more questionable, but rather Beta Israel, The story is floating all over and while I realize there is a machokes about the Jewishness of the Ethiopians (The Beta Israel, not the Falash Mura) it has become a Chilul Hashem
If they’re not Jewish then it is not a chilul Hashem.
According to the eidah it’s bot a chumra it’s halacha
Please define chilul Hashem. How it gets defined will help in this discussion.
Please define chilul Hashem. How it gets defined will help in this discussion.
You nailed it.
Unfortunately, I think most people end up defining chillul Hashem as whatever embarrasses them.
It may or may not coincide with actual chillul Hashem.
However some of the people involved already had one and were Halachically jewish
You can’t give a hechsher if only only some of the people who have access to the wine are Jewish.
Asked? What if they would have said no?
(And it could be they all were Halachically jewish..It wasnt clear)
I can’t believe you’re blaming them for not giving a hechsher on wine which lacks clarity as to its kashrus.
According to the Eidah they’re not Jewish. The Eidah follows the psakim of the Eidah not of Chacham Ovadia zt’l. The Eidah is on solid ground.
Stam yaynam is a rabbinic prohibition and thus we are lenient with a doubt. Anyone who disagrees is a heretic (Pitchei Teshuva YD 116:10)
As for the general question, a chumra can often lead to a kula and thus a chillul Hashem. For example, singing zemirot loudly until very late or having many guests that cause noise in the hallway late at night. Rav Yisrael Salanter railed against such people.
Really the entire halachah of Yayin Nesech is racist and embarrassing, and since Chillul Hashem is more important, we should just totally stop being careful about wine and let all the goyim we want touch our wine to allow for peaceful relations and make a kiddush Hashem.
More YCT teshuvahs coming soon.
ZahavasDad The Chilul hashem has been because the narrative has come out that these people are black and Rav Yitzchak Yosef has called it racism.
That wouldn’t mean the eidah is causing the chillul hashem. Learn what a chillul hashem and chumra are. That sounds like a political statement.
Chillul hashem doesn’t mean pleasing the liberal media.
JosephParticipant
According to the Eidah they’re not Jewish. The Eidah follows the psakim of the Eidah not of Chacham Ovadia zt’l. The Eidah is on solid ground.
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The aidah is the most corrupt hech$$her organisation. Just ask some “ehrlich people in the hechsher business.Re: Racism. Israeli “sephardim” have accused those of ashkenazic descent of racism for decades. As for Barkan and Badatz, this is a business decision that Barkan will make. on the one hand there is (apparantly) a business benefit to the eida hechsher, on the other hand there is the negative press, that can be bad for business too.
I’m willing to bet, these workers undergo a geirus at a badatz beis din within 2 weeks and all will be good again.
Nothing like “hock” to keep people busy though.
The story about this mentions a case where one of the men touched the wine, and a chareidi man came over, yelling, and began smashing the bottles in front of him.
Even if you want to be machmir, there’s a way to do it without embarrassing someone. That was definitely a chillul Hashem.ZD:
Yes, but Rav Yoseph doesn’t posken the way he does on this matter because he’s worried about offending sensitive, American liberals. If we poskened by political correctness, then the whole halachah of yayin nesech, bishul akum, and many other things would be thrown out as “racist.” The Rabbanut has their shittah and the Eidah has their’s.How we feel about a major Rabbi trying to discredit a legitimate alternate shittah in halachah with accusations of racism we should probably keep to ourselves. It’s fine to pull R. Yoseph as your source; I admire that you aren’t trying to posken for yourself as so many others in the CR, but if you posken like that, then what do you care if Barkan loses the Chareidi hechsher? It wouldn’t affect you. I won’t affect me either because Barkan is far too dry…
Neville, I have news for you. According to some opinions much of our wine can be touched by non-Jews as pasteurization counts as cooking.
Apushatayid, the Sephardim are mostly right n that. Both the leftists and the Ashkenazi Chareidim discriminate against tem. Very few Sephardim are accepted into Ashkenazi Chareidi yeshivot and very few have been on the Supreme Court (although Ayelet Shaked is changing things).
zahavasdad,
So R Yosef is trying to enforce the ruling of his father on asknzin. That’s not right.Let them converts for real and none of this is a problem.
PS
The fact that they’re Shomer Shabbos means nothing if they’re not Jewish.
From the YWN article linked by ZD:
“Three employees were reassigned in the factory to avoid insulting any one employee personally.”
Basically, they can’t keep their standard of kashrus without the haters complaining.
Avi K l, according to some, not all.
Most chasidic certifications take issue with it. It’s questionable if modern pasteurization processes count as cooked wine.
This is a halacha question, not a question of a chumra
For the record, it’s not only the Eidah.
R. Shach, R. Eliashiv, R. Shlomo Zalman and R. Moshe all ruled that they need to undergo a full conversion – with new blood – in order to be considered Jewish.
R. Moshe even adds that we cannot compromise on this at all.
“The Ethiopians generally fall under the Sephardic sphere (I think they were close to the Yeminite community) so for this matter a Sephardic Shitta is the one to follow.”
Those who generally rely on the eida are not sephardic, therefore….
There’s nobody in the Eidah that’s as big a gadol as Rav Ovadia zt”l.
Rav Moshe explicitly accused those who reject the Ethiopians of racism. The Badatz wants to dance at two weddings. They say that they are safek mamazerim and have to convert. If they are safek Jews then we are lenient regarding rabbinic prohibitions. Unless of course they think that they are holier than Chazal (see my post of June 27, 2018 7:15 am).
ZD:
I had to go back and check my post to make sure I wrote “doesn’t.” Perhaps you misread; it seems like you just rebutted by saying basically the exact same thing I said. I’m fully aware that R. Yoseph’s psak has legitimate basis and is totally independent on this incident. I will say, though, if someone starts talking along the lines of “anyone who paskens differently from me is racist,” it’s hard for me to believe that isn’t at least subconsciously influenced by the American Liberal mantra of “anyone who votes differently than me is racist.”
As for the Ethiopians falling under the Sphardi sphere, fine. So, Ethiopians will drink the wine; I’m not clear on what that was supposed to prove. It’s the shittah of the wine-buyer that matters here.Avi: I think Barkan is mevushal according to all opinions. We’re obviously talking about a point in a process before it becomes mevushal, hence why the Ethiopian employees were sent to a different part of the factory.
I just read on the Arutz-7 Hebrew site that the CEO of Barkan says that the Badatz representatives with whom he originally negotiated also decided that non-Ethiopian Jews they don’t like are not observant enough. What if someone opens bottles on Shabbat? Will his wine also be disqualified. Maybe the Rabbinut should retaliate and disqualify someone who does not say Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut.
Avi: That is factually incorrect about Rav Moshe.
tm: The Eidah has multiple Gedolim bigger than Rav Ovadia.
zd: Even Rav Ovadia ruled any Ethiopian needs to convert, otherwise they cannot be considered Jewish.
“There’s nobody in the Eidah that’s as big a gadol as Rav Ovadia zt”l.”
This is the “my tatty is bigger than your tatty” argument made in kindergartens everywhere. As an aside, do you think this is something NEW, that someone woke up last week and decided Rav Ovadia z’ls psak is not correct?
Rav Yosef’s Psak is not binding on me as an Ashkenazic Jew. I will follow the Psak of the Ashkenazi Gedolim referenced earlier, namely, that Ethiopians should undergo Geirus L’chumrah. The fact that if they are really Jewish they would therefore be Sefaradim would have no bearing on the Psak which I should follow.
Beis Shamai’s Psak that the child is not a Mamzer would have no relevance for members of Beis Hillel, despite the fact that the child’s family were members of Beis Shamai.
According to YWN, the Ethiopians who were removed were Shomer Shabbos
It doesn’t matter if they keep Shabbos if they’re not Jewish…
Stam yaynam is a rabbinic prohibition and thus we are lenient with a doubt.
That does not mean you should give a hechsher.
However Rav Ovadia Yosef ruled differently, He rules they were 100% jewish
What does that have to do with the Eidah giving their hechsher???
The aidah is the most corrupt hech$$her organisation. Just ask some “ehrlich people in the hechsher business.
That’s just stam irrelevant motzi shem ra.
Neville, I have news for you. According to some opinions much of our wine can be touched by non-Jews as pasteurization counts as cooking.
After pasteurization, not before.
There’s nobody in the Eidah that’s as big a gadol as Rav Ovadia zt”l.
Totally irrelevant. There are bigger gedolim than R’ Ovadia who were machmir.
Avi K
The link to R Moshe is explicitly referring to Ethiopian or black Jews that converted
Rav Moshe explicitly accused those who reject the Ethiopians of racism.
Did you actually read the link you posted? He is explicitly talking about after giyur, which he requires.
We do not rank Gadols
Of course we do.
Rav Yosef does have the right to poskin for Sephardim and he has the right to Poskin who is a Sephardic Jew
But the Eidah has no obligation whatsoever to follow that psak.
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