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Mamin, “live and let live” is a posul, non-Torah principle.
Shlishi, Ramban held le’ma’ase not to do it and even not to talk about it.
Women going to Ukraine? It is an unsafe, anti-Semitic country.
mdd: So then why did Rambam allow it? And why did Rav Yaakov Emden allow it?
while the directive to visit the Rebbe’s kever on RH is not against halacha
There are those who say it *is* against halacha to leave EY to go to the kever for RH.
Is that relevant to you, Wolf? I guess that would make you quite a sinner.
It’s not the specific case, but the general rule that he derives from the specific case that have nothing to do with sexual impropriety. See “V’Kama Maasiyos B’shas…”
The Wolf
I wonder if The Breslover Rebbe, who I hold in some regard though not at all a Chasid, meant that people should come to his kever even from distant countries at great cost, leaving their families for yom tov and enriching a nation that hates us and him. It is understandable for him to have expressed what he did to fellow yidden in his day but would he have wanted the same thing under the above very different circumstances?
Sorry for going “off” topic but I heard that R’Nachman promised anyone that said Tikun Klalli at his Kever on Rosh Hashanah is going to Olam Habah.
I don’t think Kedusha translates as inspiration.
The Sefer Maggid Meisharim says that Reb Shimon enjoys when you learn at his Tzion. The Gemara is clear about the merit of praying by Kvarim. The Arizal expounded on the Kedusha one gets from being Mishtatei’ach on Kivrei Tzadikim, and Talmidei Habaal Shem even more so.
This thread has taken a turn from questioning going to Kivrei Tzadikim on Rosh Hashana to poking fun at the words of Gedolei Achronim, Rachmana Litzlan.
Wolf: It doesn’t apply as a general rule, only the specific case he mentioned. Despite some liberals trying to matir abortion by misinterpreting it via a broad reading of the term pain.
Shlishi, double-check the sources.
It doesn’t apply as a general rule, only the specific case he mentioned. Despite some liberals trying to matir abortion by misinterpreting it via a broad reading of the term pain.
Oh, for heaven’s sake, I’m not talking about abortion. The portion I’m referring to is not the portion that deals with abortion. It’s the portion that declares that someone who would otherwise be liable for the death penalty can atone for their sin through suicide.
And, for the record, I’ve *never* heard anyone make the halachic case for abortion by mentioning this siman.
The Wolf
Tajik: Not exactly. He didn’t exactly promise Olam Haba, and it’s not specific to Rosh Hashana. Here’s the main quote from Sichos Haran 141:
“Bear witness to my words. When my days are over and I leave this world, I will still intercede for anyone who comes to my grave, says these Ten Psalms and gives a penny to charity. No matter how great his sins, I will do everything in my power, spanning the length and breadth of creation , to save him and cleanse him….”
In addition, in Chayei Moharan (a collection of various oral traditions about Rebbe Nachman from Rabbi Nosson of Breslov), the following sentence is added: “I will pull him by his peyos out of gehenom.”
A little unusual? Yes. But the Zohar says a tzaddik is greater after death than while living, so it’s conceivable that a tzaddik could “intercede” in some way with one’s soul after death. And I think it’s obvious that the part about the peyos is meant to be figurative, not literal. Obviously, peyos don’t come with you to the afterlife. It may sound like he’s promising Olam Haba, but I don’t think that’s the intended meaning.
Choppy: I’m not sure where that came from, but re-read Yabia Omer Yoreh Deah 4:1:8. He comes a lot closer to being Mattir an abortion than anyone else I’ve heard. Or is R’ Ovadiah just a “liberal” that you can write off?
Curiosity: Good questions. Here’s the answer about women. From a Breslover website:
“Some newcomers to Breslov assume that the Rosh Hashana gathering in the city of Uman, near Rebbe Nachman’s gravesite, was always a ‘for men only’ event. However, prior to the Stalinist purges, women also attended prayer services in the Breslover Kloiz on Rosh Hashana, as well as on Shabbos and the Yomim Tovim. In fact, it was the personal custom of Rav Avraham Sternhartz, the Baal Tokei’ah and Baal Musaf, upon leaving the synagogue to offer holiday greetings to the women waiting outside for their husbands and sons.
The main reason women today are discouraged from traveling to the Rosh Hashana gathering in Uman is because under present circumstances, it would be impossible to accommodate large numbers of women without serious breaches of tznius (modesty). However, groups of women travel to Uman throughout the year, where they, too, recite the Tikkun HaKlalli, the ten psalms prescribed by Rebbe Nachman to heal the soul.”
Curiosity, on the “indicated” issue, that was a quote from Chayei Moharan, written by Rabbi Nosson Sternhartz, who was the closest chasid to the Rebbe and served as his defacto successor (though Breslov gedolim have never used the title of rebbe). Rebbe Nachman must have known he was dying — his yarzheit is on 18 Tishrei, not very long after his last Rosh Hashana — and made it clear to Reb Nosson that he wanted people to visit his kever.
I see what you’re saying about tzedakah. But from the quotes I provided, it’s clear that Rebbe Nachman believed visiting him on Rosh Hashana would benefit the entire world. So it’s understandable to collect tzedakah. If I were in charge, however, I wouldn’t raise funds for Uman trips from non-Breslovers, because it might send the wrong message (that mystical pilgrimages are more important than helping the poor with their basic needs.)
One more thing about women. Rebbe Nachman asked, “Why don’t you make your wives Chasidistehs (chassidim)?”(Siach Sarfei Kodesh 2, 1-14). So he wanted women to follow his derech too.
MDG-
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If an extra delicacy falls under this category, how much more so following his Rebbe’s directive.
In response to the OP – this discussion is really moot. If you’re Chassidish, then no explanation is necessary; if you’re not, then no explanation will suffice.
Curiosity: He wanted anyone who believed he/she could gain from the experience to come. Any woman who wants to go, can. Most prefer not to go for Rosh Hashana when it’s swarming with men.
Why is it assumed that husbands visiting Uman are disserving or violating the wishes of their wives? Wouldn’t one expect them to be in harmony about something like this?
Is it also an Issur Gamur for Bachur to stay in yeshiva for Shavuos?
What about a woman going to a Rebbe herself on a Shabbos or Rosh Chodesh?
You quoted one Tshuva, which was expressing a feeling rather than a Halacha, and you are trying to use that against many thousands of Yidden who travel, men only, to their Rebbes every Rosh Hashana. This is going on for hundreds of years, by many great and famous Rebbes and Poskim. If you have an issue with the fact that Reb Nachman is not alive, keep the argument to that, please.
Curiosity, when he was alive, I don’t think his chassidim’s wives visited him on Rosh Hashana. He wanted the husbands to instruct their wives in chassidus. This is explained on the website I previously quoted from.
Regardless, your argument doesn’t work. Gedolei Breslov, not Litvishe and Sephardi poskim, are the ones Breslov chassidim should listen to, regarding how and whether to follow Breslov minhagim. If it were otherwise, Breslov chassidus (and for that matter all the other streams of chassidus) would not exist.
Rebbe Nachman believed in following the Shulchan Aruch, and criticized other chassidim for not following it (such as those who davened after zman tefilah). He also spoke strongly against unnecessary chumros. The Shulchan Aruch does not say men should always be with their families on Rosh Hashana.
In any event, it makes no sense for non-Breslovers to come forward and say, but Rebbe Nachman would have wanted you to do X, not Y. Breslov traditions have been passed down faithfully from generation to generation, and the leaders of each generation of Breslov chassidim are necessarily empowered to determine how minhagim are to be followed.
I personally think it would be nice if women and children could come with their wives to Uman on Rosh Hashana, but 1) the presence of large amounts of women and men together in the same place would be unacceptable because of tznius, and 2) who am I to argue with the consensus of gedolei Breslov?
“In response to the OP – this discussion is really moot. If you’re Chassidish, then no explanation is necessary; if you’re not, then no explanation will suffice.”
mobico- Speak for yourself and keep your ignorance to yourself.
Kozov, he speaks for exactly what took place on this thread. Not much was added to the conversation,a pertaining to the OP, after BPT so eloquently answered the question.
yytz: And why are there bigger tznius concerns on Rosh Hashana? Because of the way people act.
HaLeivi, speak for yourself. There are a number of things wrong with your statement.
Mobico is demonstrating guilty-consciense, blatant, closed-mindedness. He’s almost saying, if there is an appeal and quality that Chassidus has over non-Chassidus, then why are there still non-Chassidim (good question in a non-rhetorical context)? That is biased ignorance at its best.
I apologize but I personally saw men who went even though their wives didn’t ‘let’, Not one person a bunch of people! Chutzpa!
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