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FuturePOTUS,
Infatuation by definition fades away after a certain point. So it wouldn’t be smart to base the relationship on something that will all of a sudden disappear.
Agreed.
(It may not disappear all of a sudden, but the realization that it is gone generally happens in a flash of intuition). The point of infatuation is to kindle a flame between the couple to allow them to use that time to build a much deeper relationship that will last beyond the time that the infatuation fades.
Agreed again.
So as you said, it is real ‘learning.’
I wasn’t referring to infatuation when I made that analogy, but the formation of a loving bond, which one does from day one of marriage.
But it’s not yet strong enough to base an entire relationship on (similar to that we don’t expect a 5th grader to understand a Maharsha.)
I’m not sure I understand. Why does a bond have to be strong or mature before one can base his marriage on it? A farmer bases his livelihood on tiny seeds buried out of sight underground.
So in your opinion, what then should a new couple base their relationship upon?
Forming a loving bond together! Maintaining an awareness that this person has chosen me out of all people to share her life with, and feeling gratitude both to Hashem and to her for that. Always remembering that I chose to marry her and to be her husband, and that this choice is renewed constantly by how I think, speak, and act. To focus on bringing her pleasure, to be kind to her, to make her my top priority, and to make myself worthy of her choice as best as possible.
Lilmod ulelamaid,
(you are married, right?).
Yes.
Would you agree with someone ending a relationship due to lack of emotional connection, even if the other party has everything this person is looking for?
I have a friend who went out with her husband for a while (at least by Yeshivish standards – I don’t think it was actually that long). She told me that someone told her the following (I hope I have this right):
“If either your head or your heart is in favor and the other one is not against, you should keep going out.”
I have often been in situations where my heart was definitely against (I’m not sure about my head) and I was pressurred to keep going out. I think that is wrong! Probably, the people involved didn’t realize that my heart was against and they just thought I was neutral.
The issue of love with in marriage has been brought up here. Does the frum world discuss this enough, not enough?
Big Golem- “Would you agree with someone ending a relationship due to lack of emotional connection, even if the other party has everything this person is looking for?”
No. Who knows if they will ever find an emotional relationship with any future date. It can be compared to someone who can’t decide what to eat and ends up starving. What your saying is wait until you heart tells you this is the right one? This may never happen or what your heart says is the right one is actually the worst spouse. You can either think with your head or with your heart.
Avram in MD, the sentiments in your post are beautiful. I think you summed up what true love is.
Anyone remember that song from Fiddler on the Roof “Do you love me?”
Mrs. Tevye gives a long list of things she has done for her husband for more than 20 years, and concludes, “if that’s not love, then what is?” There is a lot of truth to that- forming an emotional connection is all about giving to and concern about the other person. In fact, you don’t have to rely on Tevya and his wife- Lehavdil, Rav Dessler states that love comes from giving. So if a couple sees that they are at the point where they want to give to each other, and are prepared to do so, then they can be assured that the emotional connection will come.
BigGolem,
Would you agree with someone ending a relationship due to lack of emotional connection, even if the other party has everything this person is looking for?
If that were the case, then I’d first investigate why an emotional connection wasn’t forming.
WinnieThePooh,
So if a couple sees that they are at the point where they want to give to each other, and are prepared to do so, then they can be assured that the emotional connection will come.
I agree, and that desire to give would reflect an emotional connection that is already being built.
Okay hope this isn’t a damp rag on a flame… on the flipside, having an emotional connection can exist independently of a healthy relationship.
So maybe this doesn’t affect the example of *Fiddler on the Roof*.
It is important to note that true love also comes with respect and the voluntary ability or choice to give and receive. Giving to someone wouldn’t be enough if it comes with unhealthy behaviors and such.
I mention this because it can be confusing when someone both gives to and hurts someone a lot. It can look like love from the outside but inside it’s quite different.
Regardless, yes the desire to give to another may indeed indicate a bond or emotional connection.
Abother look: One may also be giving to one’s spouse to ultimately establish a stronger bond and emotional connection to Hashem through the mitzvot.
I don’t know how often that happens but I know of at least one person who explained his desire to give to his wife as a way to strengthen his relationship with Hashem.
At first it sounded foreign but a friend made sense of it to me. She said that she could relate. For example, she is makpid on tznius for Hashem’s sake. It may strengthen her relationship with her husband but the main drive is to do it for Hashem.
LB: “It is important to note that true love also comes with respect and the voluntary ability or choice to give and receive. Giving to someone wouldn’t be enough if it comes with unhealthy behaviors and such.
I mention this because it can be confusing when someone both gives to and hurts someone a lot. It can look like love from the outside but inside it’s quite different.”
Yes, obviously you are correct. I wasn’t trying to suggest that giving was the only thing in a relationship, but that it is a first step to develop the emotional connection that is commonly called love. Of course there is a lot of follow-up, as you say. The common practice of trading presents may be part of this at some superficial level.
lightbrite,
Okay hope this isn’t a damp rag on a flame… on the flipside, having an emotional connection can exist independently of a healthy relationship.
Absolutely. And there can be unhealthy emotional connections as well.
It is important to note that true love also comes with respect and the voluntary ability or choice to give and receive. Giving to someone wouldn’t be enough if it comes with unhealthy behaviors and such.
Yes, for sure.
I mention this because it can be confusing when someone both gives to and hurts someone a lot. It can look like love from the outside but inside it’s quite different.
And such behaviors unfortunately can cause bystanders to disbelieve the abused person when s/he decides to do something about it.
At first it sounded foreign but a friend made sense of it to me. She said that she could relate. For example, she is makpid on tznius for Hashem’s sake. It may strengthen her relationship with her husband but the main drive is to do it for Hashem.
I think this is fine, as long as the giving doesn’t come across as a major challenge that needed to be overcome. Nobody wants to feel like a burden to be overcome, even if the one overcoming it grows spiritually from the experience!
“I don’t know how often that happens but I know of at least one person who explained his desire to give to his wife as a way to strengthen his relationship with Hashem.”
All of our relationships with others should be for the purpose of strengthening our relationship with Hashem. Not that you are using the person – you have to make sure that you are not treating them like a tool to gain Mitzvah credit.
The point is that Hashem wants us to have relationships with others. Everything we do for others is to help us build a relationship with the person. We are trying to build a relationship with the other person because Hashem wants us to build a relationship with them. So it’s not that you are using them – you sincerely want to build a relationship with them. But your sincere desire to build a relationship with them is based on your relationship with Hashem and the fact that you know that He wants you to build relationships with others since this helps create and strengthen your relationship with Hashem. So essentially, all three of the relationships a person is supposed to have (with Hashem, with himself and with others) are supposed to all be intertwined.
I don’t know if I explained that clearly or not. Let me know.
LU you said… ” Not that you are using the person – you have to make sure that you are not treating them like a tool to gain Mitzvah credit.”
Yes you explained it correctly. That was my concern. The person sounded like his desire to give to his wife and make her happy was a way of using her to earn his Olam Habah. I felt bad about saying it that way. To me it felt like the wife was a third wheel.
Agreed that the relationships are “intertwined.” I believe that Hashem wants us to have and enjoy close and healthy loving interpersonal relationships. We are humans. Lifting each other up. All for/with Hashem.
Thank you
They say, if you want to get to like someone, feel closer to, give a gift.
What about the giving of gifts, or small gestures, to help foster that emotional connection?
BigGolem +1
I like this idea.
Originally I wanted to say that imho gift giving ideally comes after having a solid connection and desire to be together.
Maybe it’s just me, but sometimes when it doesn’t work out, those same sweet gifts that helped strengthen a relationship become haunting.
But then I thought of all the good stuff…
It’s also a material connection. I don’t know… There are many benefits.
Good idea and suggestion…
It is nice to give and receive gifts. They work for the moment and allow people to give pleasure to the physical while maintaining physical separation. If it doesn’t work out then one can find new meaning in the gifts.
Gift giving can also include handmade creations, which allows a person to give by channeling into the imagination and spiritual.
A while ago I read that the kallah and chasson give many gifts to each other from their engagement leading up to their wedding.
It also creates a pattern or habit of thinking and providing for the other person, which is a great preparation for marriage.
I wonder if this is a love language thing. Some people may want to be listened to and would find that a greater gift and emotional draw than a material gift. So in this case maybe the other person would be best off giving the gift of an understanding ear.
Whichever type of gift, I like how you thought of a way to build that connection. I think at the basic level there would need to be attraction and desire on both ends to willingly stay with each other as they work on their emotional connection with giving gifts.
lightbrite- thanks for the kind words, I agree with everything you wrote.
The next question is what kind of gifts to give and how/when/where to give them.
Also, all this doesn’t only apply to gifts. What about randomly given or placed cards or notes? Something as simple as a handwritten note wishing your date or fiance a good day. Or a greeting card with an added personal note.
To BigGolem:
lightbrite said to BigGolem:
“Whichever type of gift, I like how ->YOU<- thought of a way to build that connection.”
That MIGHT mean “ask the mods for my e-mail address, and let’s get to know each other.” It can’t hurt to try.
The other thing she said is that notes, gifts, etc. from relationships that didn’t work out “haunt her”. That means stick to flowers or food which she will eventually throw out. Meanwhile pay attention to (and comment on) her jewelry (or lack thereof) in case the relationship gets serious. 75% of communication is non-verbal. Women use clothes to communicate, and you can give her the gift she is looking for when she says she wants to be “listened to”. Unfortunately what she is hearing is “How about some notes that will haunt you for the rest of your life if this doesn’t work out?”
The problem with this whole discussion is that there are many different types of relationships just like there are many different types of people. G-d willing you’ll get married soon and understand why married people hesitate to make generalizations.
(I wouldn’t have pointed this out if you hadn’t call yourself “BigGolem”. That name communicates: “Please help me”.)
Get going and good luck.
Big Golem – personally, I would be a bit cautious about giving any kind of gift if either of you is not feeling emotionally connected to the other. I remember feeling very uncomfortable when someone I went out with who really liked me (and whom I didn’t like) gave me something.
The “gift” itself I wouldn’t have minded (it was Divrei Torah – something he had gotten ahold of that he knew I would want and he had photocopied for me), but the fact that he wrote a note on it made me very nervous. He didn’t even write anything so terrible, but the fact that he wrote a note made me nervous.
Chocolate is fine – I never minded when guys I went out with gave me chocolate. But I would be cautious about notes. That is just my opinion though – I don’t know how other girls feel.
I do vaguely remember once when I set someone up and the girl wrote notes for the boy (it was her type -she used to that in general- I’d gotten several notes from her on different occasions), and I think I remember his sister telling me that it made him nervous. And they had been going out for a while at that time. So it could be it’s not just me.
I would also be careful about giving flowers too soon (I remember there was once a thread about that). My friend’s chosson gave her flowers a while before he was her chosson and she wasn’t ready for something like that, and it made her nervous.
But then again, these things all depend on the people and the situation. I would try to stick with something as neutral as possible though – like chocolate. But that’s just my opinion.
Big Golem – it is true that giving helps build a connection, so what I would do is to find a way of giving that doesn’t involve giving actual gifts or even notes. I think a compliment might be a good way to start.
Obviously, you have to be careful about the type of compliment, but there are many types of compliments you can give people without having to be concerned that it might sound inappropriate. For example, I remember telling a boy on a first or second date that his reference had said really nice things about him. That is the type of thing that anyone would be happy to hear. In general, an appropriate compliment can go a long way to building a connection.
Another way to give is by doing something thoughtful for the person. Think about something she might want you to do for or say to her.
Hatzlacha! (if you’re talking about a specific situation or even if you’re not).
BigGolem: “Would you agree with someone ending a relationship due to lack of emotional connection, even if the other party has everything this person is looking for?”
Avrum in MD: “If that were the case, then I’d first investigate why an emotional connection wasn’t forming.”
Avrum in MD +1. There have been many times when I went out with someone and I felt that it made sense logically but emotionally there was no connection. I would continue to go out with the person several times even though I was miserable, because I felt that I didn’t have a good reason to stop and people were pressuring me tremendously. Eventually, I would break up with the guy (despite the pressure) but feel very guilty about it, because I felt like I didn’t have a good reason, and people would still pressure me (after I broke up with him) to go out again. Sometimes, this would continue until the guy finally got married, Boruch Hashem!
Usually, it’s only after I stop going out with someone that I am able to realize that there WERE very good, logical reasons why he wasn’t for me, but it was hard for me to realize it at the time because I didn’t want to be judgmental and think badly of someone.
The point is that if you are not feeling an emotional connection, there may in fact be a very good, logical reason for it.
TRUEBT: Nope. Not going there. Thanks.
BigGolem: B’Hatzlacha!
BigGolem: Another idea is spending money on someone else. What if you could do a mitzvah together?
For example, if Purim is coming up, maybe you can buy some nice boxes for maschloach manos, and the both of you can go to a store and buy sweet treats to fill them up and give to a local shul or charity.
During other times of the year, maybe there is another way to pay this forward. She can invest her heart and creativity in this too.
The nice thing is that even if it doesn’t work out, your coming together for that date can at least still be a gift for others.
LU +1
About everything.
Wow, everyone offered real good advice. This thread is looking like a community, isn’t it?
BigGolem: “Wow, everyone offered real good advice. This thread is looking like a community, isn’t it?”
🙂 +1
I also wanted to add that I think it is great that you put so much effort into your shidduchim. I know I said that before, and I suppose it should be obvious that people do that, but I’m not sure if it is. If it is, I never realized it before.
I certainly think it’s really nice that you are trying to find a way to build an emotional connection and not just saying, “I don’t feel anything. Next…” which is what I imagine a lot of guys in that situation would do.
Hatzlacha!
lilmod ulelamaid +1
If the guy really likes the girl, he will be consumed with thoughts on how to move the relationship forward, take it to the next level. Things like giving gifts require a lot of thought and listening to the girl. It really is a lot of work. Sometimes I wonder if the girls realize how much work a guy might put in, while being careful not to come on too strongly.
I never did. Thank you for letting me know. I feel bad about a lot of things now… I have tried asking mechila from guys I went out with, but it’s a bit awkward. I’ve never been sure if it’s the right thing to do or not. It’s kind of like asking someone mechila for speaking L”H about them (which Rav Yisrael Salanter, zatsal, says not to do). I always did it through other people so it was less awkward, but still…
I don’t know if I could have done things differently than I did at the time. The situations I was in probably would have made it impossible. But I still feel bad about possibly having been the source of someone’s being hurt, even if I couldn’t help it. “Megalgilin chova al yedei chayiv”.
In any case, I very much appreciate your letting me (and whoever else is reading this) know.
lilmod ulelamaid- it certainly isn’t my intention to make u feel bad.
I don’t know how I feel about being asked mechila, never have.
Unfortunately, there’s no way to go about dating without getting hurt and hurting someone else. It’s just not possible. There are many things about dating I wish I was told early on. But this is something someone should tell us. That you will get hurt and you will hurt someone not deserving of it.
sorry, BG, I didn’t mean to make you feel bad about making me feel bad 🙂
I was kind of just rambling. But thank you for making me feel better. I guess it’s true that getting hurt (and hurting others) while dating is inevitable. But I do think that there can be better ways to handle things. I don’t think that hurting others should be inevitable. I think that there was a Gadol (maybe Rav Moshe Feinstein, zatsal, but I’m not sure) who said that he never hurt anyone in his life. And Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zatsal, said at his wife’s levaya, that he had nothing to ask her mechila for.
I think that if someone really wants to, it should be possible to never hurt someone else. But maybe I’m just too much of a perfectionist.
Anyhow, I appreciate your words.
BG – I just read this thread and feel compelled to “warn” you that if you are dating chareidi style, I think giving any type of gift before being engaged (or having decided between yourselves that you will be doing so) is a very bad idea. From the people around me there is concensus that it might give the wrong message about you hashkofically. I would be careful giving any gifts to a girl without checking in with the shadchan or someone who knows her.
lilmod ulelamaid- in dating, how is it possible to never hurt someone, however much you try?
Say you’ve got out with a guy 5 times, or so, and he’s really starting to like, and is under the impression things are going well. But you’re not feeling it. So you end it. He’ll be hurt, and no amount of words or mechila will change that.
This is the risk we take when we date and allow ourselves to get emotionally involved.
BG- thank you. I appreciate your saying that. It does make me feel better. I still feel there are better and worse ways to do things. And I wish I could have done things in a better way. L’maaseh, I did ask mechila from most of these people at some point, and most of them are married anyhow so probably dont need my mechila.
But thank you.
By being sensitive and respectful and etc, I think that we can minimize the harm.
Nevertheless, no one can control the way that another person responds to something not working out. It may not even be anything that the other person did. It could simply trigger past unresolved feelings of abandonment, anxiety, and/or so on.
That said. The one thing that a rabbi suggested helps in this regard is using a shadchan.
The breakup goes through a third party, who can then counsel and support the person in moving on and finding the right person. That way any emotional hardship is mitigated and any feelings can be speedily responded to, and then directed forward in a healthy manner.
As a shadchan and someone who is married, in my humble opinion, an emotional connection can be made before marriage (and preferably should be made) but only to a certain extent. A deep emotional connection, as was said before can only be made when one goes through the good and bad things in life together and works as a team or when one spouse is gong through a hard time and the other learns what it takes to calm them down or build them up.
How does one build an emotional connection of some kind while dating? If a couple goes out a few times and after going through the usual shallow conversation, starts talking about their feelings, their thoughts for the future, their goals in life, what type of qualities impress and/or repulse them, past experiences that gave them hope, discouraged them,saddened them or changed their life. It seems that there are singles ‘who don’t know how to go the next level” and can’t get past the quality of conversations one has with the stranger at the bus stop. Eventually the dates become stale and the relationship dies out when this level can’t be reached. But I feel it’s really necessary to ‘get there” before marriage so the rest of the emotional connection can easily come after marriage.
BG -“Unfortunately, there’s no way to go about dating without getting hurt and hurting someone else. It’s just not possible.”
E/o has to learn in life to forgive and forget!
There’s no bigger hurt than getting divorced.
And I’m not really angry at my ex!
Mussar47 – thanks for the great contribution to the discussion. What do you think think of gifts, or leaving notes? Of mild romantic gestures?
“And I’m not really angry at my ex!”
Wow! That’s amazing!
BigGolem: Do you want to give these gifts to build an emotional connection?
From what Mussar47 said, forming an emotional connection comes from couples “talking about their feelings, their thoughts for the future, their goals in life, what type of qualities impress and/or repulse them, past experiences that gave them hope, discouraged them, saddened them or changed their life” (Mussar47).
While we’re here giving you ideas, I wonder if giving gifts is a way to avoid getting to the talking and opening up about yourself part of the relationship.
You have no need to defend yourself here. Please forgive me if I am wrong. In my eyes, it wouldn’t be right to not have you consider this, and it’s not something for me to know.
Investing in a relationship requires one to share one’s feelings, including and especially that vulnerable squishy stuff that the rest of the world doesn’t see. It requires one to let one’s guard down.
The biggest gift that you can give someone is being open and honest. While you’re asking about whether certain gifts are acceptable, perhaps the biggest test is seeing whether or not this person accepts you for you. Foremost, you must accept yourself.
You have a lot to offer.
Thanks BigGolem and Lightbrite for the vote of confidence. I agree with Lightbrite. A small gift or gesture goes a long way only AFTER starting to emotionally connect-open up. The timing has to be right. If you give something before you open up at all, it may look inappropriate or scare the girl off. Timing is everything and like Lightbrigt said, gift giving shouldn’t replace opening up. It should be there to enhance the relationship that is starting to bloom.
lightbrite- it’s not about avoiding talking and opening. But doing everything one can do to invest in a relationship and move it forward.
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