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(Yes, this is from my perspective)
Wife bought a robe which fit her nicely. Not too tight, in other words it wasn’t fitted but it was’t baggy. She is a tznua and felt it wasn’t loose enough so she bought a larger size robe. I can’t stand the new one, she is swimming in it and I am embaressed when she wears it. She claims it fits her nicely and has gotten compliments on it. She thinks I should commend her on her noble hashkafos.
Question, can a lady be too tznius?
The first may have been fitted even though you thought it wasnt.
I am positive I have read a Gemara or a Midrash in which an Amora criticized a woman for being too tznius, because in effect, it is a lack of tznius, as it draws extra attention to herself. I just cannot remember where it is. Help anyone?
There are times when my daughters will try something on and say it’s too fitted – not tznius, and I won’t see it that way. I guess each person is different and you have to feel comfortable with the way you look. If you feel you’re not tznius, then it will bother you the whole time.
Heshy- It doesnt sound like what your wife bought would fall under that category of too tznius.
Women who wear burkas would imho be considered too tznius because everyone stares at them. even though there is nothing to see its a lack of tznius as yitayningwut said.
Heshy:
Like you say, the issue here is not about whether she is objectively wrong, but about the fact that it is embarrassing you.
I’m guessing you’re hoping to convince her to stop, and were hoping you could say she was doing something objectively wrong.
I think you will be better off having an open conversation about it with her.
Perhaps she feels too exposed in the tighter one. Perhaps she can get a different one where you won’t be embarrassed and she won’t feel exposed?
In any event, one or both will probably need to compromise, but the most important thing is that you are both aware and respecting of each others feelings on this.
yitayningwut– maybe avodah zarah 18 .??? ?’ ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????????? It says the daughter of Rav Chanina Ben Tradyon was punished for having pesiyos na’os (walking nicely) one time she heard the romans complimenting her steps so she then was careful. Many of the Baalei Mussar explain that Rav Chanina’s daughter was of course a tzanua ( see later on in the gemara there) just she was extra tznius that she attracted attention, which is the opposite of the idea of tznius. When she realized people were complimenting her and that she stuck out she corrected herself. because of that she was punished. that is the basic idea
yes she can be too extreme, but it wouldn’t count as Tznius.
(I mean technically by way of dressing, not in attitude)
Just tell her to buy back the 1st one and wear it under the second one. Problem solved! my advice is for only for winter, summertime its better to have a looser fit, for anyone.
Chacham – I think it was more explicit than that. Although I thought it was R’ Yochanan, so maybe this is indeed what I was thinking of. Shkoyach!
I have seen robes that aren’t tznuis.
Edited
s/t a sem teacher said: even if you spend 150 on your shabbos robe, its still bedroom clothes. (ie its just a fancy night gown)
Except when there are guests for shabbos and its being worn
TAB- no they are certainly not bedroom clothes. Robes today are more like Chasuna gowns today. They are beautiful and Shabbosdig and elegant.
“Question, can a lady be too tznius?”
English Translation:
“Question, can a lady be too modesty?”
Correction:
“Question, can a lady be too tzenu’a?”
🙂
smartcookie: that was my teacher’s point. even though they are as fancy as they are, what did they start out as? i hear her point; i own a shabbos robe but i do not wear it out of the house, nor do i wear it to meals. i just don’t take it to such an extreme. (yes i do wear it around the house shabbos afternoon if the house is empty)
Wow! tab; I’m genuinely impressed!
but the what did they start out as…doesn’t have anything to do with it! I mean what is it now? Is it nice and looks like a dress
fine, is it shlumpy or “Robey” (new word) that is not kavod shabbos
to go outside like that.
I personally, view it as a glorified nightgown.
Take crocs for instance. Crocs started out as ugly, holey,
troll-like foot mushrooms, though they are soo comfortable,
but now there are really stylish ones that look like regular shoes.
Note: there are still many haggy (new word) ones that I see many
ppl wearing on shabbos. They must think it looks nice (it so doesn’t)
Although there really isn’t such a thing as being too tznius, there has to be a line separating tznius from unkemptand shlumpy. Tznius is showing everyone that you are so much more than a body, you are a precious neshama. However you can get people to realize this, do that. For example, if you are in say, Hershey park, and you are in a long sleeved shirt and a skirt that covers your knees people will look at you.but it’s not negative attention in the sense that they are noticing your body. Its just the way you are dressed that is attracting their attention.
However if you are actually embarrassed by the way your wife is dressing then you should definitely talk to her. Maybe you are just not noticing the details on the first robe that she felt made it untznius.
I for one, wish I could be on that level.
Tznius is not showing everybody anything.
s/t a sem teacher said: even if you spend 150 on your shabbos robe, its still bedroom clothes. (ie its just a fancy night gown) “
It most certainly IS NOT!. I would never wear an expensive fancy robe to bed. It is more Shabbosdig than some of my dresses. That sem teacher was IMO mistaken. Anyone who does not know the difference between a fancy robe and a nightgown, needs to have someone fashionable take her shopping.
Again: You are all making the same mistake. “Tznius” is not an adjective; it’s a noun!!
Proper use:
“She doesn’t care about tznius.”
Improper use:
“She is not tznius.”
“Tzenius” means “modesty.” It doesn’t mean “modest.”
oomis, prev lesson i learned in sem: slept by dif classmate’s boarding family (my family went away for shabbos). after the seuda we both got ready for bed. i got into my pj’s, and she got into what looked to me like a shabbos robe. i asked her if she was going out of the room to read and she said s/t that changed my perspective. “these are my pajamas. just during the week i wear a regular night gown and just like shabbos we wear different clothes, shouldnt my pajamas be different too?” this is why i can hear what my teacher has to say about shabbos robes being bedroom clothes. yes i agree robes can be elegant, fancy and fashionable, these 2 thoughts are in my head regarding shabbos robes.
oy vey- hikoshishu vkoshu— you can’t even find a consistent way of splelling the word tzenius/tznius
If we describe a lack of tznius as drawing attention to oneself, then by that definition, any woman brisk walking on Ocean Parkway is behaving immodestly.
I think, to a degree, tznius is a personal sensitivity. I used to ask my mother before going out on dates if I looked tzniusdik (and often felt I didn’t because of the makeup I wore, etc.). Still, it would probably be inappropriate to go on a date SANS makeup.
Certainly, a man should not have to look at his wife and hate her mode of dress. You need to bring your feelings to your wife’s attention, and ask her if she could, perhaps, alter the robe, slightly, to meet both of your standards. When in doubt, you could always ask her to check with her rebbetzin and/or friends, who would check both the appearance and the tznius factor.
s/t a sem teacher said: even if you spend 150 on your shabbos robe, its still bedroom clothes. (ie its just a fancy night gown) “
Hate to butt in (and agree with a sem teacher!), but this is 100% accurate. I cringe when I see women walking outside in their nightclothes, no matter how “fancy” or Tznius they may be. Furthermore, it seems to me that it is suggestive (being “bedroom wear”), and therefore inherently not something a Bas Yisroel should wear outside, no matter the cost or look (of course, ask your own Rov, and YMMV).
yitayningwut-“Tznius is not showing everybody anything” Huh??
Tznius is modesty, not hiding under a burka. Modesty means many things- and applies to men as well.
In a nutshell, I would describe tznius as “not drawing attention too oneself”.
This could mean by not wearing enough clothing, too much clothing, too tight, too flashy, blabbing endlessly loudly, etc…
Chacham: You’re right. That’s because I’m not sure how to transliterate the shva na.
@Taking A Break and Gavra at work:
Maybe 10 years ago or more it could have been considered fancy night gowns. But now, would you wear rhinestones, sequins, buttons, beads, and other fancy shiny stones to sleep in? I dont think so and if you did, that would be quite uncomfortable! What about the newest style-‘jumper robes’? which are sleeveless and you wear a shell underneath? Or the ‘wrap robes’? that have so much material one could have a very hard time sleeping in them? and of course, what about the price? who would sleep in a $200 (or more!) nightgown?!
It may have started out as fancy night clothes, but it certainly isnt anymore!!
I personally think that one of my aunts from Lakewood is a little too yeshivish…She isnt regular yeshivish shes cheesy yeshivish..for example, She puts tights on her 4 year old girl in the summer!!..I mean like come on!! And RL one of her sons were off the derech nebuch.She dosent really let them watch neby videos…like Barney…oy vey! you know to each his own!! She wears her skirts not 4 inches below but like 7 inches…She is getting schar thats forsure but you can look nice even when your being tznius!!
Maybe 10 years ago or more it could have been considered fancy night gowns. But now, would you wear rhinestones, sequins, buttons, beads, and other fancy shiny stones to sleep in? I dont think so and if you did, that would be quite uncomfortable! What about the newest style-‘jumper robes’? which are sleeveless and you wear a shell underneath? Or the ‘wrap robes’? that have so much material one could have a very hard time sleeping in them? and of course, what about the price? who would sleep in a $200 (or more!) nightgown?!
I know nothing of this stuff, Boruch Hashem. If a Robe is really a Dress (by passing the “Dress duck test” then it is not a robe.
a person can be too tznius but this is not being too tznius this is just what is comfortable for her. sometimes as a female i wear something and look in the mirror and realize i shouldnt be wearing it when others tell me its perfectly fine and tznius. being too tznius is when u see little girls walking around with hair coverings and a million layers of clothing so u see nothing of her it is very sad seeing this (i saw it for the first time this year while in seminary) let your wife wear what is comfortable for her
tznius wise for nothing else but shalom bayis on its own
To the OP:
The question here isn’t really whether or not your wife is being “too tznius”, the question is if she should wear something she feels is not tznius in the name of shalom bayis. This is not a question anybody here can answer; you have to go to your Rav who.
Chacham: You’re right. That’s because I’m not sure how to transliterate the shva na.
Use the schwa symbol “?”.
Or a husband can Learn to be happy when his wife is happy wearing more comfortable and tzniusdik clothes!
Sorry, I cringed when reading that a husband is embarrassed to be with his wife because of a robe…
Yes, have you seen Muslim woman?
if you wont wear it out of your house then its a robe. doesnt matter what it costs. men notice that its not a dress. maybe women wont get this but they all have a “im fancy pjs” thing going on. i would serioiusly discourage my wife from wearing it around anyonje but family. thankfully, she wont anyway cuz of her own standards.
I’m with you AYC on that.
i would serioiusly discourage my wife from wearing it around anyonje but family. thankfully, she wont anyway cuz of her own standards.
See Toi, there is another we agree on.
It is more common than you think.
being tzniyus means not drawing attention. ppl who try to be OVER tznies, are doing the opposite- drawing attention!! for example those lady in Mea Sherim who wear those huge capes, they draw soooo much attention!
yungerman1-
I wasn’t really disagreeing with you.
I wrote that tznius is not showing everybody anything – not that it’s not showing anybody anything. Point is, it’s about keeping to yourself, living a private life, not excessively flaunting anything, physical or spiritual. It was particularly a response to Cinderella who wrote “Tznius is showing everyone that you are so much more than a body, you are a precious neshama.”
Question, can a lady be too tznius?”
English Translation:
“Question, can a lady be too modesty?”
Correction:
“Question, can a lady be too tzenu’a?” “
Finally – someone who knows Dikduk! I have been saying that for years. I am so sick of people using the word tznius in an incorrect way, grammatically. TzniusDIG clothing and behavior, ladies!
Taking a Break – Just because your friend feels this way, does not mean she speaks for the majority of women who bedavka buy these gorgeous and expensive robes to be especially worn at the Shabos tish. If one chooses to use such a robe in a cavalier way by wearing it to bed, thus risking RUINING it, that is certainly her prerogative. But I personally would never do that. I imagine it is more likely that what she calls her fancy Shabbos nightgown, is really not what I would call a Shabbos robe.
And yes, I think it is really nice to wear a special nightgown for Shabbos also.
” Just because your friend feels this way, does not mean she speaks for the majority of women who bedavka buy these gorgeous and expensive robes to be especially worn at the Shabos tish. If one chooses to use such a robe in a cavalier way by wearing it to bed, thus risking RUINING it, that is certainly her prerogative”
i said it was a shabbos robe; didnt describe it so you are assuming what it looked like. it was a velour robe, one that was sold to be worn as most ppl wear a shabbos robe. but thats besides the point. this was a lesson I learned, that i took to heart, not one i said others should follow. my BFF’s wear their robes out of the house. its thier choice, as it is yours as well. but i do think that sequins, rhinestones etc are a bit flashy, (attention getting) which defeat the purpose.
what catches the eye more? a well fitting robe with decorations, or a robe that is just a drop too loose? its all in perspective
(this is all OPINION. not forcing this on anyone)
“I can’t stand the new one, she is swimming in it and I am embaressed when she wears it.”
& “I don’t have much of a choice. She more or less said to me, “One more word and I’ll turn the world to ‘tahoo vavahoo'”
These communication techniques are unhealthy in a marriage on both ends. It becomes a power struggle rather than a healthy dialogue.
Why do people say “it’s not tznius” when they probably mean “it’s not TzniusDIK,” anyone ?
Tznius is a noun, not an adjective.
are you the wife of Joe? like, jack and jill? jan and joe?
Perhaps your wife opted for the larger size because she feels fat in the smaller one. She figured if she told you she thought she looked fat, you would tell her she looked great, but if she said she felt it was lacking in modesty you would commend her for being scrupulous in this matter. I guess her strategy backfired on her.
QUESTION TO ALL WOMEN WHO AGREE SHABBOS ROBES ARE NOT TZINIUS AND SHOULD BE WORN AS NIGHTGOWNS, well what about weddings, why is it okay for women to wear gowns that usually are very fitted as gowns are made to be in addition to standing out based on the “royal” wear compared to other wedding relatives and guests.
I think if you consider shabbos robes to be nightgowns, wouldn’t most wedding gowns be considered untzinius too?
I know of someone who was very particular about tznius and she specifically wore a fancier suit due to the gowns being too fitted by nature of most gowns!!
I know, get her fat, and then it will fit!
I think if you consider shabbos robes to be nightgowns, wouldn’t most wedding gowns be considered untzinius too?
I know of someone who was very particular about tznius and she specifically wore a fancier suit due to the gowns being too fitted by nature of most gowns!!
Wedding dresses aren’t tznius either! They’re all fitted.
To add to what you’re saying, a wedding dress is like a wedding gown is like a shabbos robe etc and untznius.
And congratulations to that lady who wore a suit, I hope she has 7 sons who are all kohanim gedolim, or at least gedolim. But you can have a tight fitted suit too. Which is like a tight fitted Shabbos robe. Etc. Which is tznius, because it’s a suit?
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