- This topic has 62 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 7 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
On a recent European trip I had dinner a restaurant with hashgacha from the local vaad but also notice a sign in the window that the restaurant was compliant with halal rules. I understand the obvious effort for a kosher establishment to broaden its clientele for economic reasons but is there some inyan in Halacha that it is assur to even mention the word “halal” given its roots in Islamic tradition? The owner of the restaurant said that they did not take any additional actions to qualify as “halal” compliant and that many Muslim customers in European cities purchase their meat from kosher butchers.
Jewish shochtim in Eretz Yisroel used to say Allahu Akbar each time the shechted an animal in order that they could sell the meat to the Arabs, since that is an Islamic requirement for Muslims to be able to consume the meat.
Dor, would you be disappointed if there was not? Hallal is Arabic for “permissable”. It is more or less the equivalent of כשר. BTW, sharia means “pathway” (הלכה).
It would need to have someone from the Muslim community certifying it as well. While our rules are similar there are differences. Halal can include camels or mixtures of meat and milk. We often hold bitul be-shisim (ignoring 1/60th non-kosher) but they don’t have a similar rule – though most good hecksherim prefer to avoid relying on this rule and prefer only kosher ingredients be used. We allow wine, and they don’t. Also, some Muslims don’t accept Jewish slaughter and insist that meat be slaughtered by a Muslim (just as we insist that animals be slaughtered only by a frum Yid).
Does a square need to say that it’s also a rectangle?
Anything that’s Kosher is Hallal with the exception of alcohol; I’ve never met a Muslim who isn’t aware of this.
I’m not sure why the shechting in Allah’s name thing doesn’t get in the way. Maybe it’s not so m’akev. Most Muslims in these regions are meikel and we do not protest.
Ah at last a worthy question that truly is a most pressing issue facing klal yisroel.
Though the answer is AYLI (ask your local imam)
There is obviously no halachic problem, unless of course it isn’t halal and they find out it might create a chilul HashemI have seen packaged food products with a hechsher and also with halal certification. What’s the difference? Maybe the restaurant was promoting the fact that they don’t use wine?
Many years ago I was walking down the street in my hometown on a week-day Yom Tov and passed our local kosher meat store. Outside I saw a very bewildered-looking young man (no yarmulke) peering through the window. When I asked him if I could help him he replied that he was a Muslim exchange student at the local university and got his meat at the kosher store because he could be sure it was halal, and that many of his friends looked for the kosher mark on food in the grocery before buying. I explained to him about the Yom Tov and told him when the store would be open again. He thanked me very sincerely and went his way.
Putting a sign in your store window that you are halal-compliant doesn’t mean that you endorse Islam. If it leads to extra parnassah for the Jewish owner why not? I’ve also know Christians who buy kosher because they think it’s better supervised and healthier. Incidentally, Islam and Christianity aren’t technically avodah zarah – they have other classifications (e.g. shituf for Christianity) and don’t fall under that strict category of issurim. Let’s worry about more important things – like being respectful of each other when we post to the Coffee Room.
NC
“Anything that’s Kosher is Hallal with the exception of alcohol; I’ve never met a Muslim who isn’t aware of this”THAT’S Your pesak. My coworkers imam is cholek precisely because ” the shechting in Allah’s name thing gets in the way” i told him to come ask his sheilos here but he pointed out ywn shouldn’t be used for pesak and he didn’t want to go imam shopping
The Rambam paskens that Christianity is A”Z whereas Islam is not.
Sounds unlikely, ubiquitin.
Are you aware that some Yidden in the Middle East refer to Hashem as Allah? It’s hardly different from us Ashkenazim calling Him the Eibishter.
I suggest you ignore your co-workers and consult your local competent orthodox imam!
A Gut Moed to all.ubiquitin – 🙂
Rambam lived safely in Egypt. If I remember correctly, Ashkenzi rabbonim poskened that Christianity is “shituf” – not avodah zarah but saying that there is something in addition to HKBH. Quite understandable, especially if you lived in a Catholic country where the local rabbi could be called on to debate priests in the public square. In any case, that’s how it’s poskened today. About non-mainline groups like J’s Witnesses or Mormons I’m not sure. Most of the Christians I know try to be good people according to their understanding, even if some of them do believe some strange things about Jews. (The Jews own all the banks? I’m a Jew – where’s my bank? I want my bank! 🙂 I assume the same is true for most Muslims outside the anti-Israel groups.
I think the kosher-halal question might depend upon whether halal is available in a given area, or a Muslim might have to make do with kosher. At least he’s sure there are no non-halal animal products in it.
Joseph, true, for non Jews,
NOT for Jews. For Jews, both are AZUbi and Neville, that’s a chumra. You might call it mehadrin. In fact, at one time in EY they decided to require that the shochet say “Alla-hu akbar” (Gd is great) before schechting. A shochet whose parnassa would be affected asked if he could say it. Rav Kook said that he should try to get out of it but if he could not he could say it.
As for your co-worker, Ubi, maybe he should ask Sheikh Google Ibn Wifi Al Internetee. There are also Imam Facebook and Moulana Twitter. Just look on Google. There are also various sites for fatwas.Midwest2, like YitzchokM pointed out what I said about Christianity and Islam is exactly correct about those gentiles. But it, obviously, isn’t the case for Jews — for whom both are A”Z.
The Rambam’s Psak, as noted above, is what we rule with today. The vast majority of Ashkenazic poskim didn’t address the issue altogether due to the Church censoring of Seforim. Imagine the consequences should a Sefer published in Europe have stated what the Rambam paskened about Christianity.
In any event, the Noda B’Yehuda, one of the Ashkenazic greats, explicitly rules that shituf is pure A”Z when practiced by a gentile.
RichardM
“Sounds unlikely, ubiquitin.”It shouldnt there 1.5 billion muslims in the world. It is absurd to think they all follow the exact same laws Even among the observant ones.
“Are you aware that some Yidden in the Middle East refer to Hashem as Allah? ”
I am. but are you aware that One beracha can be made to shecht many animals, whereas many muslims require their “beracha” (lehavdil) be rcited with each animal.
Yes some are meikel, and as Joseph said some shochtim will say “bismillāh Allahu akbar” with every shechita so it is halal lemahdrin. As I said, AYLI I am not paskeningSome kosher is not hallal, and some hallal is not kosher. however the rules are similar enough that a vendor could produce items that are both kosher and hallal with minimal difficulty (other than politics due to the current real estate dispute in Eretz Yisrael).
Richard,
1. Middle Eastern Jews would be very surprised to be called Yidden (BTW, “Yid” is a pejorative in English – Archie Bunker used it).
2. Actually, Eibishter is a corruption of Creole German for “the Most High” (actually, it is Eibershter). The equivalent of <Allah is “Gd”. It is related to “Ke-l and Elo-ka” in Hebrew.
3. Rambam did not hesitate to criticize Islam. He even referred to Mohammed as “the madman”. However, at the end end of Mishneh Torah he says that both religions came to bring the other nations closer to Hashem. Rav Yaakov Emden says that the intention of that man was, in fact, to propagate the sheva mitzvot.Midwest,
1. I also do not think that most Xtians have a great deal of theological knowledge. Generally they just refer to that man as their savior.
2. Considering the political standing of banks today I would prefer to stick to controlling the Congress.“unless of course it isn’t halal and they find out it might create a chilul Hashem”
Don’t you mean a Chillul Allah?So, it sounds like the Baalei Nefesh require it to be shechted with a brachah, while the more balabatish Muslims are OK with eating the regular, kosher meat. Would a Shiite eat meat that was Shechted with a Nusach Sunni brachah?
Also, was your friend able to access the CR from his phone, or did he have a Hallal phone? If a phone is kosher, should it advertise that it’s also hallal?
“Don’t you mean a Chillul Allah?”
No I mean if they find out that a kosher store was deliberately misleading them it could be bad. Though admittedly, I am grasping tryingto figure out what could possible be the OP’s concern
“while the more balabatish Muslims are OK with eating the regular, kosher meat”
Exactly right and the frei ones dont even care about that. There are over a billion of them. They dont all practice the same thus this statment “Anything that’s Kosher is Hallal ” i true accroding to many though not all muslims.
Although even my coworker (not “friend”) will eat kosher if there is no halal availableAll-h is G-d and Hashem. There’s no different saying/writing one over the other.
Yeah, it seems pretty easy for them to get a heter when kosher is the only available stuff for them.
I think the OP was asking as a business question. Is it a good idea of trying to attract more Muslims at the risk of scaring off Jews? It’s worth mentioning that the Muslim communities in Europe (where the OP is concerning) are very different than those in the US. Here in the US, we have conversations with our Muslim coworkers, and they stay friendly and respectful (I’m sure there are some exceptions). We have decent vetting here (even pre-Trump). In Europe, they’re more or less straight-outa-Gaza.
OK, so a Muslim won’t trust them. But as long as teh restaurant keeps the halal rules, there is no reason it shouldn’t advertise as halal and have Muslim clientele.
can only say half-halal
“But as long as teh restaurant keeps the halal rules, there is no reason it shouldn’t advertise as halal and have Muslim clientele.”
On paper, but sometimes it’s better for business for certain things to go without saying. If people can get up in arms over a storefront displaying “Happy Holidays,” then it’s not too much of a stretch to think advertising as Halal might turn some people off in regions where the religious Muslim population is known to be unfriendly towards the Jews.
Gadol: Halal is actually extremely meikel once the animal is shechted. They don’t avoid parts of the animal like us, or check for blemishes to my knowledge. So, I don’t think they would differentiate between Bet Yosef and Rema. In fact, I think they’re even OK with Hebrew Nationals, unlike the Hebrews (that’s how you know WE’RE the real chosen people).
While many Muslims rely on kosher food to meet their halal requirements, Jews cannot use halal food and assume it’s kosher (as someone implied above.)
At this point I think we need a certified local posek, which I am definitely not. And a Muslim would need to consult with his local imam. What is permitted no doubt varies across time and place, so the authority needs to be local.
OK, here’s the genuine info.
Within halacha we have several different schools of psak, e.g. ashkenaz, sefarad, teman, which all recognise each other as perfectly valid, but nahara nahara upashteih, and one must follow ones own school’s psokim. So an ashkenazi rav who is asked a shayla by a sefardi person should either answer him according to the sefardi psak, or refer him to a sefardi rav. The same is true with the Moslems; they have at least four schools of psak, called madhab, which pasken differently on certain shaylos.Here the shayla is the brocho. Moslems hold that the brocho on shechita is me’akev, and without it the animal is haram. They also hold that there must be a separate brocho for each animal, and it’s not enough to say one brocho for a whole session in which many animals are shechted. Where they differ is bediavad, what to do if the shochet didn’t say a separate brocho on each animal.
So when it comes to Jewish shechitah, lechol hade’os the first animal shechted in a session is halal, because the shochet said a brocho on the shechita, and all imams agree that this makes it halal. The problem is the rest of the animals shechted in that session. The Hanafi psak is that even bediavad the brocho is me’akev, and so the rest of the animals would be haram, and therefore one can’t eat kosher meat without ensuring that one gets from the first animal (“tanur rishon”, so to speak). all the other madhabs pasken that bediavad it’s OK, and all kosher meat is halal.
Even some Hanafi imams permit kosher meat, because they have a psak that if the shochet meant to say the brocho and simply forgot, then it’s as if he said it. So some Hanafi imams rule that since our shochtim do have kavonoh on the brocho the whole time, and are not mesiach daas, and the only reason they don’t repeat the brocho out loud is because we hold that it would be a brocho levatoloh, therefore it’s as if they said it on each animal.
What I meant is that if a kosher restaurant meets the laws of halal, there is no reason they shouldn’t advertise for it and make more money through Muslim customers.
Milhouse – that is a very thorough answer. What is your source? It looks as if you consulted something authoritative, and I’d like to check out what else they have.
Neville,
1. Actually “Happy Holidays” started as a compromise. At first banks only offered Xmas clubs. then they also offered Chanuka clubs. then Kwanzaa was invented and they threw up their hands.
2. Actually some Moslems claim that they are the real Hebrews. They say that Yishmael was Ibrahim’s heir.Midwest, many young Moslems consult “Sheik Google”. There are also “Ask the Imam” sites.
Milhouse, who says that Ashkenazim can only hold by Ashkenazi rabanim? If there is no question of the Mechaber vs. the Rema there is no reason why an Ashkenazi can’t rely on Rav Ovadia, for example. To make matters more complicated, sometimes the Gra rules like the Mechaber against the Rema. For example, the Gra says not to put on tefillin during Chol haMoed and to have Birkat Cohanim every day (interestingly, in northern Israel they do not but do do it during Shabbat Musaf).
If a restaurant wants to pay for two sets of supervision, it could easily be certified as both “kosher” and “halal” since there is a tremendous overlap – but just because it is certified as one, doesn’t mean it qualifies for the other with additional certification. Indeed, I’ve seen products with certifications for hallal, kosher and vegan.
Muslims have the opposite view of who is the spiritual inheritor of Avraham Avinu, so they contradict Hashem, so their concept of Hashem is totally different, plus there is the “strange” ritual they perform one a year on their pilgrimage which intensifies the idea that they believe in a “different” identity, even if appearing to be monotheistic, not the same as Hashem.
There is no need to label kosher food as halal, they know it is the best.
I do not think it is advisable to label kosher food as hallal, as it is misleading to Jews, who may be led astray has v sholom.” If there is no question of the Mechaber vs. the Rema there is no reason why an Ashkenazi can’t rely on Rav Ovadia, for example.”
Avi, you know you’re opinions like this are slanted farther left than what most of the Torah world accepts. Is it really worth it to keep rehashing stuff over and over just so we can all tell you we don’t agree with you?
On a side note, I don’t understand your point about happy holidays. It obviously started as a compromise, but that doesn’t change the reality that storefronts can’t display it today or it will trigger the Religious Right (not our religion).
“there is no reason they shouldn’t advertise for it and make more money through Muslim customers.”
If a restaurant is near a prison, is there no reason why it shouldn’t display “ex-convicts welcome” in order to get their business? The point is, with the situation in Europe, “welcome all Muslims” is not necessarily a sign Jews want to see in front of their restaurants. It could very well lead to more loss than gain in business.
I once was asked by a Muslim about Halal meat at the certain butchery. I warned him that it was cut with the same equipment as the treif stuff, and he ended up not buying it. I later found out that Muslims don’t have a concept of “Halal Equipment” like us. So, I inadvertently talked him into observing a weird Kosher-Halal creole halachah.
He later went on to convert and become a Chassidishe guy.
…OK, just kidding about that last part. The first part actually happened though.
Neville, I heard this from my rabbanim, who are quite mainstream. Your opinion is way to the right of what the Torah world accepts. You are trying to split the Jewish people. Next you will say that an Ashkenazi cannot be the rav of a Sephardic shul.
FYI, Neville, the Ben Ish Chai, Kaf haChaim and Rav Ovadia all cite Ashkenazi poskim and contemporary Ashkenazi poskim cite Rav Ovadia. To make it even more complicated, the Shaagat Aryeh and the Gra both sometimes pasken like the Bet Yosef against the Rema (for example, the Gra only said one beracha on tefillin).
Avi K, what matters is not who he is but what kind of rov he is. An Ashkenazi person can become a Sefardi rav or vice versa, simply by learning the derech hapsak of that community. The Chacham Tzvi was a pure Ashkenazi by birth, but he learned in Sefardi yeshivos and got his smicha there, so he was a Sefardi chacham. But someone — whether A or S — who was educated only in A yeshivos, and knows only the A derech hapsak, cannot pasken shaylos for a S community. It’s not just Rama/Mechaber, it’s whole different sets of poskim, and different approaches to weighting them. Someone like Rav Ovadia or the Sdei Chemed knew both drochim, so they could pasken for each person according to his community.
Milhouse, the Rosh says that that stopped with Abaye and Rava. Even more so today when rabbanim have access to more sefarim. According to your opinion, a Chassid cannot rely on Rav Moshe’s pesakim and a Litvak cannot rely on Rav Wosner. A Yekke cannot rely on either. The Briskers are certainly wrong for relying on the Rambam fr learning.BTW, FYI many Sephardim learn in Ashkenazi yeshivot and vice versa.
“Are you aware that some Yidden in the Middle East refer to Hashem as Allah? ”
Several years ago, a song on one of the yackov schwecky albums was “inshalla”.
Inshalla means “b’ezrat Hashem”. It is a common expression.
People seem to have misunderstood what I wrote earlier. If a kosher restaurant is willing to pay for Muslim supervision, I don’t see any reason that they shouldn’t advertise that they are halal, as well as kosher. I’m not so familiar with the laws of halal, but assuming no part of halal contradicts kosher, they can very well serve both Jewish and Muslim clients.
Avi K, the difference in psak between chassidim and Litvaks and Yekkes is very small compared to the difference between Ashkenazim, Sefardim, and Temanim. It’s more like the difference between Iraqis and Moroccans, which is significant but manageable. But ein hochi nami, on those topics where there is a difference one must ask ones shaylas of a rov who knows how to pasken according to one’s own community’s standards. And a rov who is asked by someone from another community should pasken, if he can, not by his own standards but by those of the asker’s community.
Milhouse, how do you define difference in pesak? For example, Rav Mordechai Eliahu and Rav Ovadia, both Sepharadim. had a major disagreement regarding the place of Kabbala (which also exists between Litvaks and Chassidim although the Mishna Berura cites the Zohar and Arizal) in Halacha as well as the place of customs developed in Chutz laAretz. Even among Litvaks, there are those who consider the Mishna Berura the main posek and those who look more to the Aruch haShulchan. As I previously posted, the Ben Ish Chai (who corresponded with the Netziv), Kaf haChaim and Rav Ovadia all cite Ashkenazi poskim. Some Ashkenazi poskim also cite Sephardi poskim (the Briskers in particular are Rambamists) in their teshuvot.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.