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I don’t want to point out individual yeshivos but I know at least one (plus one online) that gives smicha to juts about anyone who will pay for it. You spend a couple years for a couple hours at night and the Rabbis there will walk you through yoreh yoreh. Some yeshivos are just so strapped for cash that they will give it to just about anyone who will pay and is not a Reform Jew.
Should 30 year old guys learning in Kollel call 23 year old kids who just got smicha from one of these places Rabbi while they call them by their first name? Where do you draw the line- perhaps we should only call people Rabbi who actually have a career as a Rabbi apposed to someone who just got smicha over the internet or some questionable yeshiva after a year?
Absolutely, call him by his first name alone.
In fact, there is no obligation whatsoever to call ANYONE with any smicha, even legitimate smicha, “Rabbi” simply because he got smicha.
I compromise by calling them maharat. It stands for Manhig Hilkhatit Rukhanit Toranit
stink, i was gonna reply along the same lines.
tee hee
Same reason someone might want to get smicha from JTS or HUC. Just because one calls itself Orthodox does not necessarily mean it is indeed Orthodox or that, at least, everything it does is proper Orthodox practice.
Just because someone got smicha from an online or less-well-known yeshivah doesn’t mean they don’t deserve the title. Yeshivat Pirkei Shoshanim requires its students to pass the Rabbanut’s smicha exam, so they at least have to know something.
More generally, people who get smicha through such places aren’t necessarily doing it so they can get a title they don’t deserve or aggrandize themselves. A lot of people either didn’t have the opportunity to go to a regular yeshivah, because they became BTs at a late age or whatever, and simply take the smicha course as a way to challenge themselves to increase the level of their Torah knowledge. Even if these places became so widespread that nearly all men have smicha, I don’t see what’s wrong with that — it would probably increase the overall level of Torah study and observance.
In practice, anyway, if someone seems like a talmid chacham and people refer to him as rabbi, then call him rabbi regardless of whether he has smicha at all, or regardless of whether you know where he has smicha from.
If someone is bothered by their own feeling that people with less knowledge than you have smicha, because unlike them the person never went to the trouble to get smicha, then I would say that person should go ahead and get smicha already if they deserve it so much.
Of course, if places are giving away smicha without requiring people to learn anything, that’s a problem and people should keep that in mind when deciding whether to take someone’s halachic views seriously or call them a rabbi. But that doesn’t mean each graduate from such places is inadequate in their knowledge.
It so happens to be that some of these 23 year olds know yoreh deah very well and some older people who dont.Everyone is diff and if one learns the halachos inside theywill know it well.to pasken one needs shimush anyways so that rwally counts where he did it.
Who are we to judge the quality of one’s smicha?
Today everyone is a “rabbi”. The title doesn’t mean much anymore.
Many people have smicha and do not even refer to themselves as Rabbi. Some people have smicha and do not have a Shul or practice rabbanut or even teach. Nevertheless, if they have legitimately earned their smicha, they should be addressed as Rabbi, if that is their wish (some prefer not to be). If someone has NOT earned his smicha through his learning and knowledge of Torah, then that’s a whole ‘nother ballgame.
CC613, my understanding is that in BMG (Lakewood), at some point they all seem to gain the honorific Rabbi even though they do not (nearly all) neither have semicha nor have even studied Y”D at all.
As to this practice at the unnamed institutions you discuss, I don’t see what’s wrong with learning Yoreh Deah at night and receiving “semicha” if you pass a legit test on Y”D. That doesn’t make you qualified to refer to, say, Rav Dovid Feinstein, by his first name, but that also doesn’t mean you’re not allowed to use that honorific in recognition of your mastery of Y”D.
Unless you propose that “Rabbi” be used only for those in the rabbinate/chinuch, it is already used for every guy at BMG once they reach a certain point. So anyone who passes a legit test on Y”D deserves that honorific, for what it’s worth.
Today everyone is a “rabbi”. The title doesn’t mean much anymore.
I have, for a long time, protested when someone called me “Rabbi” or any other variation of the word. I have not earned it and calling me “Rabbi” is disrespectful of those who have studied and worked diligently to obtain the title.
The Wolf
im more fed up with every guy in a frock being called ‘Hagaon’. seriously, most arent.
I have, for a long time, protested when someone called me “Rabbi” or any other variation of the word.
I’d think that a Shliach Tzibur (including a Baal Koreh) is deserving of an honorific.
Since when did mastery of davka a portion of Y.D. as opposed to anything else make one a Rabbi?
how about the other titles people add to their names Admor of Etc. shalitah, Gadol Ha door etc. there must be a standard not to buy a house put up a sign and we have a new gadol in the neighborhood.
If someone graduates medical school, you generally call them Doctor, no matter how old they are. It has nothing to do with age, it is a title that you’ve earned by virtue of passing the exams needed.
If someone gets semicha, they’ve earned the right to be called Rabbi. Does that mean you always have to? Probably not, but when using a formal address, you should write their official title.
Whether you have respect for them or not is up to you. If the semicha is from a yeshiva you don’t hold of, then don’t show them the respect to their face. Obviously, don’t use them as your Rav.
Don’t call a reform (or conservative) pastor a rabbi.
This is why I don’t even have questionable Smicha. I don’t want anyone to insult me by calling me Rabbi (CV).
Now GAVRA is a Choshive title. Gavra is used many times in Shas, probably more than any other title.
(I believe this is a repeat)
I’d think that a Shliach Tzibur (including a Baal Koreh) is deserving of an honorific.
I would disagree.
Even if you want to argue that I should be addressed as “Rabbi” ex-officio* (as, for example, a grade school Rebbe would be called Rabbi even if he doesn’t have semicha), that would only apply to the members of my shul. It would not apply to anyone else.
The Wolf
* A position I disagree with as well.
Chafetzchaim, I am in accord with DaMoshe.
My father O”H was a great Talmid Chochum who did not have smicha. He was every bit as learned as any Rov I have ever met, but he never went for smicha and would not have called himself Rabbi, though unquestionably he would have passed any bechina given to him. His learning WAS strictly l’Shma, and he had an eidetic memory, so whatever he learned was committed to his memory immediately. He was known for his shiurim and lectures that were typically spontaneous in nature, without notes, and he could quote seforim by heart. He SHOULD have been called rabbi, but preferred not to receive that title.
So I repeat, someone who has honestly earned that title (I love the word honorific), deserves to be called by it, if he so chooses, just as a non-practicing doctor, retired govt’ official (i.e. Mayor Koch O”H),or retired military man is still called by their title. It makes no difference if he has a shteller or teaches in Yeshivah. He still has the degree. Now, OTOH, I kind of believe that a wife of a rabbi should be referred to as the rebbetzin, if in fact her husband is a practicing rabbi in a shul. I am sure there are those who will disagree with that, but it’s a semantic issue, I guess.
I heard (am no expert in his teshuvos make such a claim) that R’ Moshe z’l used the term rabbi when referring to members of non orthodox clergy. Orthodox clergy were called Rabbonim.
The title rabbi really means nothing these days. I am routinely called rabbi by the homeless who solicit change outside the building where i work and the kenyan dry cleaner where I have my cleaning done.
Rav Moshe did not ever call any non-Orthodox “rabbi”.
oomis: Online smicha currently costs $ 4,920. If some rich kid gets smicha from here who has plenty of money and free time, spends 20 years as a lawyer and doesn’t learn a day after that: your father should be mekaved him while he addresses your father who learns Torah all day as Mr. so and so?”
FTR, my dad (who was niftar 19 years ago, and I only WISH some rich kid or ANY kid could see him today to get a Sholom Aleichem, if not kovod, from him) had the title Dr. in his health-related profession, and Chazzan too. He wore many hats, but Rabbi was not one of them.
Be that as that may, if online smicha were considered legitimate smicha, then I would have no problem addressing the individual who received it, as Rabbi. I cannot imagine however, that Smicha can be conferred by another Rov, without actually doing the action of “smicha” on the talmid. So it would tend to make me think that unlike an on-line reputable college degree (where the student actually has to do and submit the work) it is not quite the same getting “smicha by internet.”
I understand the point you are making,and btw, there is such a thing as smicha for teaching, but not paskening shailos, and it is also a kovod to the mechaneich b’Torah, to be called Rav or rebbie even without smicha. My sons had rebbeim who for certain did not have smicha, but were called Rav so and so, and their learning reflected their worthiness of the title.
Technically, anyone with smicha can confer smicha on anyone else. IOW, if a 21 year old has smicha, he can give smicha to his 18 year old friend.
But one cannot just GIVE smicha to just anyone.There has to be a basis for him to be worthy of it, at least in the learning aspect. Or is that not the case?
But one cannot just GIVE smicha to just anyone.There has to be a basis for him to be worthy of it, at least in the learning aspect. Or is that not the case?
Ideally, of course. In reality – who knows?
Confucious: It must really be terrible when reality doesn’t fit with your world view. But since you deny reality instead of simply looking up something easy, you made yourself look foolish.
Rav Moshe, in the T’shuvos, called everyone Rabbi-Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform. However, he did it in two clearly different ways. For the Orthodox, he spelled it in Hebrew, Reish Beis Yud, to show that it was a Kavod’dik title. For Conservative and Reform, he spelled it as they would in Yiddish (Reish Aleph Beis Yud Yud) to show that it was just a title, just like he’d call a doctor a doctor. Now, there was obviously no Kavod at all meant in calling them “Rabbis” (anyone who reads his T’shuvos about Conservative and Reform can see that in a second). But it’s a blatant falsehood to claim that R’ Moshe never called them Rabbis.
Thank you Sam. Saved me the trouble of heading over to hebrew books, to look for and then copy and paste from a teshuva where he uses the term “rabbi” in reference to members of the reform and conservative clergy.
One “adam Chashuv” once said that anyone studying Torah as a vocation deserves the title Rabbi just for the mere fact that he sits and learns.
Just as an aside, what about the ones who teach children. Many people call them Rabbi although I believe they are getting confues with Rebbi. IMO They shoud be addresses as Rebbe so and so rather than Rabbi so and so.
Any thoughts?
Well, on that token (that you are concerned with rebbe/rabbi) if you call them Rebbe, people might confuse them for the Admou”r type of Rebbe.
What institutions offer online semicha? I know about Pirchei Shoshanim and R’ Wilhelm, as well as R’ Mordechai Yitzchok Friedman. Any others?
A few weeks ago I noticed an ad for a Yeshiva dinner honoring several people who were referred to as “Rabbi”. I called the Yeshiva and asked from what Yeshiva a certain honoree was a musmach. The administrator told me “Living in Lakewood is enough to be called Rabbi”
I think that is a slap in the face to those who legitimately have earned Semicha.
Chafetzchaim: What sources in Chazal are against being a Rabbi? That’s just silly. Rabbanus in that Mishnah in Pirkei Avos means public leadership, not being a Rabbi.
Thank you, it would have been a privilege to meet your father. He seems like a great man. “
Thank you. He was indeed. For so many reasons.
chafetzchaim613: I don’t understand why it bothers you so much.You can call anyone Rabbi or not ,its up to you. One can tell if someone is a true talmid chacham or not.If someone receives Yoreh yoreh or yadin yadin then it means they know that topic well does it mean they can pasken,maybe,if they have shimush or not.Without a doubt there are plenty of people who don’t have smicha who far surpass people with smicha,but that doesn’t make someone with yoreh yoreh an am haaretz. In two years one could learn a lot of Yoreh Deah and know it well.Should that person be called Rabbi that’s up to each individual to decide.
Wow, what a great topic that is finally being discussed. Yasher Koach to chafetzchaim613 (I cannot agree with you more regarding everything you said).
I agree that it is a week proof to bring Chukas Hagoyim as your raya (a couple people said since doctorate holders in America are called doctors regardless of what they do or how old they are so should people with any sort of “smicha”- no matter how cheep the smicha is). However EVEN THIS is not true.
The book Honor & Respect: The Official Guide to Titles
says someone who has a Ph.D and does not work in academia (the example they gave is someone with a doctorate who works at a Bank) should not be addressed as doctor. So by that logic someone with a smicha degree who works in business, medicine, law etc. should not be called Rabbi.
Regardless, to even compare the two in the first place is rather silly in my opinion. The problem is that historically over time honorifics with real meaning get more and more watered down. This happens whenever money is given directly or indirectly in return for an honorific to institutions.
The lesson is that unless it is coming from a very well known and respected rov: focus on what people say and not the person saying it.
I made a donation of $4000 and got smicha within 6 months; from someone who was also a Medical Doctor, btw.
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