Calling cops on frum neighbor

Just call.

You insist on submitting names of gedolim who say not to call police but that just adds smoke and mirrors. Nobody says to ignore a psak. When a gadol hador says that in situation A you do A, and in situation B you do B, you cannot keep accusing people of ignoring a psak just because they see situation B as B when you see it as A. You have decided that any situation at all involving a male inflicting pain on another as being ‘no biggie’ (see all corporal punishment etc threads for evidence of this). To you, everything is situation A. The rest of us seem to have a different view of aggression and abuse and are labeling it B. If you see A, then do A. We are seeing B and are doing B. The arguing is primarily on your tolerance level for other people’s pain, not on what the gedolim prescribe.

Having said that, the OP himself said police OR SHOMRIM. getting help from a jewish organization for someone WHO NEEDS IT is not equal to calling 911 and you have to stop calling everyone a moser for wanting to get appropriate help.

Rsv Elyashiv’s Psak is *specifically* about allegations and/or suspicions of abuse.

Who says Rav Elishiv’s psak would apply in THIS case

ubiq: Rav Elyashiv’s Psak was issued as a guidance for before a situation occurs so that you know how to react when it does occur. The guidance states that when there’s shrieking (i.e. shrieking “YOU’RE AN IDIOT! I HATE YOU!! DON’T EVER TALK TO ME AGAIN!!!, not shrieking “PUT DOWN THE GUN!! THE KNIFE IS HURTING MY NECK!!, which is a different scenario) that you don’t know is accompanied by violence, it is required to first get a psak as to whether the Halachic criteria of raglayim ladavar has been met or not.

There’s a poster right now (syag) who can’t tell the difference between fantasy and truth.
Making up stories to fit your narrative is silly.

There’s a man (or was, he’s dead now too) whose neighbor heard shrieking from his house and figured he must have been murdering someone. After the police were called and found that it was indeed the radio, the man was so embarrassed that he couldn’t face anyone anymore. He became so withdrawn that his wife divorced him and took the kids, and there was nobody at home to find him on time after he had the heart attack.

Counterargument using same style.

no, actually not. poor taste and disrespect, either intentionally or not, either towards those who suffered or just to me. Not sure which, but talking about abuse and people who have committed suicide to escape the pain that their relatives/friends/neighbors didn’t protect them from isn’t really funny or something you need to jump in with a parody style counterargument against. Especially since the stories I mentioned really happened thousands of times, and you made yours up to be argumentative.

“This whole thread is sad not one poster advised, maybe just maybe to actually have a conversation with your neighbor before calling the cops maybe that’s what mature adults do.”

I came close, by suggesting knocking on the door to borrow a cup of flour and assessing whether there’s actually a problem.

Sorry, you don’t get to play victim here. You’re bringing up stories that don’t happen as often as you’d like to think, so no. I don’t feel bad.

Is an apology to Joseph still on the table re:preferred arrest policies?
Or, according to your view, every arrest is appropriate.
And every time someone pleads guilty, he must be guilty.

If you’re asking if you should call the police, then you should.

Unless you’re a moron. So you should ask your rov whether you’re a moron.

No, ask us.

Oh, you did.

Yes, you are.

Syag, you don’t live on a little island of purity and sorrow where you have a monopoly on tragedy.

Papa
“If you’re asking if you should call the police, then you should.”
Please explain.
I also like to hear your opinion of calling after his ruv said not to

No time to respond to everything right now, but I want to make a couple of important points:

1. I wrote that not all smoke or fire necessitates calling the fire. Some posters argued with me that it does. I think that you were talking about different situations than I was. I have witnessed fires that did not necessitate calling the fire department, sometimes even if hadn’t been Shabbos, and certainly if it was Shabbos.

We once had a Chanuka Menora go on fire on Shabbos – someone stood next to it to make sure that the fire didn’t get out of hand and necessitate chillul Shabbos (it didn’t).

Another time, there was a fire in the park near my house (not on Shabbos). I called the fire department and knocked on the doors of all the people in my apt. building telling them there was a fire and they should leave their houses. No one left their house or seemed at all concerned besides me, and the firemen took at least 20 minutes to arrive. This was in Israel where grass fires are fairly commonplace and rarely dangerous.

Ubiquitin & Avi & whoever else it’s relevant to: While you are correct that one is mechalel Shabbos even for Safeik pikuach nefesh, it has to be a certain level of safeik. This came up once in another thread a while back. I think someone raised the possibility that if you see a lost purse on Shabbos, because there might be medicine in the purse that the person will die if he doesn’t have, so therefore it ‘s a safeik pikuach nefesh.

Obviously, that is a very small safeik so we are not mechalel Shabbos. There are halachos regarding how big a safeik has to be in order to be considered safeik pikuach nefesh. We don’t call a doctor on Shabbos every time that someone is sick.

Likewise, there are halachos regarding a situation like this. That is why we have poskim. If you don’t trust your Rav, ask another one. But it requires a psak halacha. And no one here is qualified to give it since we don’t know the situation.

And Ubiquitin, as I pointed out before, the OP said that he has no idea if this is something that requires police intervention. In his last post, he wrote that he doesn’t know that there is physical violence going on. It is entirely possible that he is the nervous type.

It shouldn’t take any more time to call a recognized poseik than it does to get advice from anonymous posters. And you will feel more at peace if you know that you asked Daas Torah and are following halacha.

2. I think that the reason for the chilukei deios has to do with the fact that different people are understanding the situation differently. Ok, maybe that’s obvious. But my point is that I think that some people, when they hear the word, “shrieking” ,it sets off major warning bells and they assume that there is immediate and clear danger or at least a very strong possibility of such.

“Shrieking” can mean different things. The word itself is open to interpretation. It does not necessarily mean a situation that necessitates police intervention

The OP wrote (a few times) that he is not sure that something is going on. He is not sure if this case necessitates police intervention. His Rav is sure that this case does not. They are the only two people here who have any information. None of the posters here do. All we know is that an anonymous poster is nervous and his Rav is sure that police intervention is not needed. Yes, his Rav could be wrong, and yes, we have no idea who his Rav is. But why assume that his Rav is wrong and that the police should be called? No one here knows anything about the situation; how can anyone possibly be poskening that he should call the police?

This is a situation that calls for a psak halacha from someone who knows more about the situation than anyone here possibly can. No one here has any right to posken that he is allowed to call the police. The most you can do is to tell him to ask someone else. However, even that only makes sense if the second person is more authoritative than the first and if he tells him that he spoke to his Rav and what his Rav said.

Another very important – you and others are assuming that the Rav is an idiot who doesn’t know how to add 2 +2. Of course, it’s possible that he’s an idiot, but it’s also possible that he knows more about the situation and/or how to deal with it than you do.

The OP stated that he trusts this Rav (in general) and that he is widely respected in the community.

Why take the OP’s feelings about the situation at face value and not his feelings about his Rav?

LU 1
“it has to be a certain level of safeik.”

Obviously. As the op said “…sounds like shrieks. It is scary to think what is going on. … Last night again I heard loud screaming and shrieking from inside. I think I might need to take matters into my own hands and call shomrim or police. …. I am sure that something is going on.”

Thsi isnt a lost purse that might have something that somebody might need. This is a person right here right now who might be in danger. there is no reason to call a Rav. If the Rav got the psak wrong it is assur to lsiten to him.

“I think that the reason for the chilukei deios has to do with the fact that different people are understanding the situation differently.”

I dont think so . I think the main difference is people either not recognizing (or caring) what a danger domestic violence can be (and is!). (see below*)

““Shrieking” can mean different things. The word itself is open to interpretation. It does not necessarily mean a situation that necessitates police intervention”
Obviously! If the OP had written I hear shrieking it sounds like a child is really excitedby a present she got or a woman is surprised by the diamond necklace she got, should I call the police? OF course nobody would say yes.

Correction: I meant to write that the shaila to HaRav Elyashiv zt’l was posed by HaRav Feivel Cohen shlita (not HaRav Dovid Cohen shlita.)

Avi K -“LU, there is also no time if you hear screams”

Absolutely no Heter to call the cops, when you could call EMS or Hatzolah.

Screams alone tell very little.
There are people who scream because they are being attacked.
There are people who scream in anger;
There are ghosts who scream because it is the only way they can feel alive.
There are people who are in pain and so they scream but there is no help.
There are people whose natural condition is to scream, and they scream in response to almost anything.
And then there are also all kinds of silence.
People who have heart attacks but live alone and aren’t found until it’s too late.
People whose fear of death keeps them alive after their will to live is all gone, who keep themselves numb using whatever means they can.
People who are being totally controlled by another person, and don’t dare to even whisper.
People who feel so small that they don’t think they have the right to make a sound.
People who are long gone and can’t scream.
People who know that if they started to scream, they would scream forever.
People who have been completely abandoned and feel invisible.

Health, while you are at it why would you call them for a host of other suspected crimes? Moreover, did you ever stop to think that maybe the neighbors are all victims? Did you ever hear of home invasions?

I am getting really tired of all these worshippers of the issur of mesira. Not because I minimize it, but because it has become a subject of lay people basically paskening whatever they want based on the concept. And this is with minimal to zero knowledge of the real parameters of this issur. I would ask anyone who is mouthing this stuff to please stop accepting the street version of mesira, open a Shulchan Aruch, and seek the guidance of a posek who is versed in the subject to provide guidance. Meanwhile, there is an unfortunate amount of “pilpul shel level” in earlier comments.

If people were only as careful to protect others from shame, and to promote Ahavas Hashem, we’d all be better off.

@RebYidd23

“There are ghosts who scream because it is the only way they can feel alive.
There are people who are in pain and so they scream but there is no help…

And then there are also all kinds of silence…
People whose fear of death keeps them alive after their will to live is all gone, who keep themselves numb using whatever means they can.
People who are being totally controlled by another person, and don’t dare to even whisper.
People who feel so small that they don’t think they have the right to make a sound…
People who know that if they started to scream, they would scream forever.
People who have been completely abandoned and feel invisible.”

Brilliant comment thank you

did you just make that up now? Are you a psychologist? or a poet?