- This topic has 20 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 3 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Two (somewhat) disparate questions:
1. was it muttar to kill a moser. Wass this just muttar or halachicly obligatory?
2. if someone witnessed an actual maaseh of znus with an eishes ish or mishkav zocher, he can immediately kill them at the time, without beis din or judgement. Yet, he can only do so if he is completely free of this sin himself. In what way must he be free of this aveira in order to be able to take this action? And must his action be immediate and impromptu, or can it be deliberated – and if so how soon after bearing eidus to this maaseh can he do it?
1. Muttar, but not obligatory. Recommended though.
2. He must never have had an impermissible relationship, in order to be allowed to inflict the punishment. And it must be done on the spot, when he witnessed the act. (No prior warning is necessary in such an instance.)
you are only aloud to kill a moser BEFORE he is comitting msira in order to prevent it, once the msira happend there is no point to kill him unless he already has a chazuka of being moser for three times. And yes this goes on even bizman haza. (see yoreh dieya 425:3 “hanarugim b’loy bies din nidoinim gam ato”.
TheChevra
Before asking this Shaylah, first make sure you know what a Moser is. There are people who think going to police about child molesters are mosrim. This is discussed on another thread. So before you kill anybody make sure you know that he is actually a moser or else you become a murderer. For th record Im not recommending you kill anyone, but if you do know of a real moser that is causing problems for teh community you should discuss this with a competent and discrete Rav before doing anything you cant undo.
To execute someone for the issur of eshes ish or mishkav zochur, you need a p’sak sanhedrin.
mdd-
While I think he is very mistaken on a few counts, what he is referring to is not completely made up, it comes from a mishnah in Sanhedrin (73a) which reads, (sorry I do not have Hebrew on this computer) “v’eilu hem she’matzilin osan b’nafshan, harodef… achar hazechur, v’achar na’arah hame’urasah”.
WIY;…And (Following your advice.)when the Police come knocking on your door arresting you for murder, you “Mish Oyf” the “S’eif” in Yoreh Deah and show that you had a right to kill the “Mooser”. Or hire a Criminal Lawyer.
Myfriend, not true that no warning is needed. I think Raavad says that by kannaim pogin bo one must warn him first to stop.
Kanai’m Pog’in Bo for a forbidden relationship is only by a Bo’el Aramis (having relations with a non-Jew). And the Mishnah from Sanhedrin only applies to someone attempting to force a Na’ara Me’urasa and only applies before the act is committed. Once the act has begun you have to take him to Beis Din.
Sam:
Right on! There are two categories, ????? ?????? and the other of ?????? ?????. Kanaim – after / during the act is only for ???? ?????. The other din of ?????? is only to save – beforehand, and does not necessary apply to all ?????.
Perhaps the OP’s point #2 is referring to the Mishna in Sanhedrin 81B that states “HaBoel Armis Kanoyim Pogim Bo” (A Zelot may kill while the action is still taking place).
The Gemara elaborates on this concept and says we learn it Mediverei Kabalah from the Posuk Boel Bas Ail Naychor.
Shitas Rabbienu Tam and those that argue on him are located in
Tosfos Kesubos 3b Devirei HaMaschil (In the paragraph that begins) V’Lidrosh L’hwo.
He was clearly coming from the mishna I mentioned. Though he got the details of the halacha quite wrong, and did mix in some details from the kana’im pog’im bo sugya.
Anyway, if he’s still around, he can let us know…
The Gemara elaborates on this concept and says we learn it Mediverei Kabalah from the Posuk Boel Bas Ail Naychor.
The gemorah brings al pi kabalah?
Kabbala in this context means the words of the nevi’im, nothing to do with the way it is used today.
A Kanoy can do it to a Bo’el Aramis after the maaseh (as Yochie seems to be saying) or only during it? And is any warning needed or can he just do it on sight?
And does the Mishna in Sanhedrin 73a refer to both voluntary and involuntary mishkav zochor when saying “achar hazechur”? And is it only applicable to na’arah hame’urasah or to an eishes ish as well?
And is it applicable only before the act? If the witness finds it in middle and the person refuses to stop, the witness can’t do anything on the spot to save the victim?
Are these dinim regarding a kanai in force today?
Something often overlooked in a discussion of this kind is that Kanoyim pogim bo at their own risk. If, C’V, one is engaged in the aveirah previously mentioned and kills the Kanoy who is trying to kill him, that constitutes legitimate self-defense the avaryon is pattur.
Hacham-
It’s been a really long time since I’ve went over that sugya, but here’s what I have from memory.
The mishna is talking about b’oneis. It has nothing to do with kana’im pog’im bo.
In Moreh Nevuchim (towards the end of the third chelek where he talks abot the reasons for the mitzvos) the Rambam explains the halacha that since this bi’ah may cause a mamzer it comes with a pgam that will last forever and that is why the person has a status of a rodef. At first glance it would seem that he did not have the girsa of zechur. It would also seem that any ervah b’oneis would be included. Why did the mishna specify na’arah hame’urasah? Probably because the Torah uses that case in Parshas Vayezei. And from here one could also infer that the din rodef would last until ??? ????.
Kana’im Pog’im Bo has to be during the actual ma’aseh. I’ll look it up later but I’m sure about this.
Why should it be any different today?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.