BTs vs. OTDs

It’s hard to figure out numbers generally, but it would be even harder to figure out what the numbers mean, because the population of potential baalei teshuva is much larger than the population of potential OTD. Also, in the area between yeshivish and not frum, where many, many OTD and Baalei teshuva find themselves, it is not always easy to define frumkeit. Are people who live in Lakewood, go to yeshiva, and periodically text on shabbos frum? What if they volunteer for tomchei shabbos? How about people who live in Memphis, keep shabbos (by not driving or turning on lights, but they also don’t have two sit down meals with kiddush etc.) and kosher but don’t wear a yarmulka and have never been in a shul?

1. No one has done a systematic study, and there are a lot of definitions to be played with. If some is raised Hasidische in Boro Park, and ends up being modern in New Jersey, are they off the derech, and in the reverse, are they BTs (i.e. the Young Israel kid who grows up to be a Boro Park adult)? Lines get to be very fuzzy, especially if you want a clear border between frum and not-frum, which in essence is what is needed for a neat BT/OTD discussion.

2. If you look at published Shailohs and advice columns, you’ll note that until the 1960s you were more likely to read about frum parents asking how to act when they visited their treff kids, and since then more likely to be about the BT kid asking how to deal with their non-frum parents.

3. When secular Jews study the matter, they focus on shul membership, which is problematic since many members of modern orthodox shuls are not frum by any definition, and many orthodox Jews don’t join a shul (especially in big cities, and especially among hasidim – traditionally being a member meant accepting financial responsibility for the shul as opposed to being someone who came regularly to daven there).

There’s no reliable answer because neither group maintains membership lists. In 1998, I attempted to estimate the matter by merging several large-scale polls and came to the astonishing conclusion that nearly half of the adults in Israel make some significant change in their religious orientation at least once in their lives (meaning that some make more than one). This was years ago and concerned only Israelis, but …

ZD,

You are wrong yet once again. There was a whole magazine Klal Perspectives, recently about kiruv and the consensus was that they cannot tabulate the number of Ba’alei Teshuvah and there is no point in doing so. On the contrary, we hear all sorts of numbers of people going of the derech. Some of which I believe you yourself conjured on some of the other threads here.

nishtdayngesheft,

Why are you arguing with ZD here when he said that no one knows. You said to him “Some of which I believe you yourself conjured”, but he said, “Nobody really knows.”

Let’s have more fun with the definition problem – you grew up in Williamsburg but never davened with kavanah, cheated a bit on waiting six hours, talked about politics during davening — then you ran away from home, went to college, wear a kippuh srugah and daven in a Young Israel – but you actually daven during davening, never discuss politics on Shabbos, and learn all day. Or vice versa? Which is OTD and which is a BT?

How about a Shomer Shabbos thief? What about a “conservadox” or “conservative” who totally gives up on kashruth and Shabbos (OTD or doesn’t count to start with). How about a totally assimilated Jew who adopts ingredient kashruth and stops working on Shabbos, but perhaps will turn on a light – but won’t go to his job.

A good frum sociologist might dream up an index to measure frumkeit for comparison purposes. It is interesting to note that frum institutions at all levels are growing, and non-frum ones are shrinking – but that may be due to birth rates more than anything else.

There is more than one troll on this site

Akuperma: Your point about institutions is susceptible to the same definitional problems as individuals.

I would rather be Untouchable than think that every time someone classifies people, that implies a class system.

Sorry, but I simply don’t agree with you. The term class can be used to describe any classification, and there is nothing inherently offensive about this classification.

You are asking if it is easier? Or if it is statistically more likely? Or some other question.

I would rather be OTD then think that Judaism is a class system.

Of course it is. From the Mishna in Keddushin:

?,? ???? ?????? ??? ????–?????, ????, ??????, ????, ???, ??????, ?????, ?????, ?????, ??????. ????? ???? ???????, ?????? ???? ?? ???. ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??????, ?????? ???? ?? ???. ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ?????, ?????? ???? ?? ???.

That’s not to say one can not rise above their caste via becoming a Talmid Chacham (similar to a serf joining the priesthood in the middle ages), but it certainly exists in Halacha.

DY: While I agree with PBA that there is nothing inherently objectionable with the use of the word “class”, because it simply implies a distinction, I think that what she meant was that as a practical matter it is impossible to classify someone as keeping the Torah vs. not keeping the Torah in any meaningful way.

As much as I dislike this thread and want to stay out of it I want to point something out. Daasyochid, are you male? If I am wrong then forgive this post. You are typing a smiley face to me which in the real world is flirtatious, yet you do it. But agree with a caste system I’m Judaism, putting yourself higher than those who let’s say wear srugies or are mechalel shabbos.

You are typing a smiley face to me which in the real world is flirtatious, yet you do it.

I didn’t know that. In the CR, it has been posted that a smiley means that you are making a joke, meaning he doesn’t actually expect you to vomit in public.

I will try to remember that. How would someone point out that they are making a joke?

@GAW 😉

PumFakert! The “wink” of the semicolon makes it more flirtatious! Dos iz a Rayah that it has to be something else.

I will have to agree that its probably easier for a BT to go OTD than an FFB and the reason is , An FFB might be disowned by his family and have to go out on their own.

A BT might be embraced by their non-religious family because they gave up “Talibanism”

write or wrong -“I’d definitely disagree with this. A BT has made an informed choice to leave the secular world and embrace the religious one, while an FFB is just continuing in the path of his parents. It’s not about “breaking new ground”, it’s about temptation. The BT has already been there and saw the sheker. But the FFB might think the grass looks greener…”

You’d have a valid point if there was only one reason that people become Frum and that is that they saw the light. I’d say most have more than one reason that they become Frum -like coming from a dysfunctional family. So all in all, I think it’s easier for a BT to go back to their old ways. Maybe not all BT’s, but a good portion of them. And I’ve seen this with my own eyes. Sometimes when the going gets tough -some BT’s get going.

Historically, a frum person has been defined as one who is shomer shabbos.