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I want to stay in yeshiva for awhile and not waste time and money in college for so long. If I get a btl from the ner, or another comparable yeshiva, would I then be able to get accepted into a decent masters program in areas such as jewish studies, near eastern studies, bible, or some other related field? Does a place like YU or Touro, or even a better university accept btls into master degree programs?
Except for law (which an accredited undergraduate degree is legally required in most states), graduate schools don’t even require a BA to get in, but it certainly helps. Getting accept to a graduate program requires, typically, an undergraduate degree, and a transcript that shows you can do the work required, and it helps if you can convince them you know what you are doing. Fro example, if you come to an interview and can switch between Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic (a.k.a. Syriac), Farsi and Turkish — they will be very impressed if you are applying for a program in middle eastern languages. Want ancient near eastern studies: write your application letter in Akkadian.
But for normal people, they look at your undergraduate transcript, references, and anything else you can use to “sell” yourself, and a BTL from a yeshiva is not especially prestigious. It does mean you are qualified to apply without asking for an “exception”, but if all your transcript has is evidence of studying in a yeshiva you may not be in a great position.
And of course, many schools are very happy to admit people who pay full tuition, and even more so if your family wants to endow something.
lol
not bad
Medical/Dental school requires a btl also
Mr Sfardi – “Medical/Dental school requires a btl also”
What r u talking about? Those schools require real under grad degrees!
Health: Actually, a Medical/Dental school could admit someone without an undergraduate degree, and in fact many have programs leading to combined BS-MD degrees. The requirement of an undergraduatge background is “law” rather than “minhag” only for law and then not in all states. However its a very strong minhag.
Somewith a BTL combined with the correct coursework (available in many places that offer one year pre-med programs for people with degrees in other subject) would be adequate. Of course you would have to be especially brilliant with fanatstic grades in the science courses and great scores and a fanatstic resume – but it can happen. It’s easier to go to a regular college to take the premed courses as part of an undergraduate program. A BTL trying to to medical school would be no worse off than an English major or Jewish studies major.
Dry my bad I meant to say a BA
very funny, rationalfrummie. Now do shidduchim.
akuperma -“Health: Actually, a Medical/Dental school could admit someone without an undergraduate degree, and in fact many have programs leading to combined BS-MD degrees.”
You must be lawyer. The facts are many Yeshiva guys take their BTL’s and go to law school. Don’t waste your time applying to
Medical/Dental w/o an under grad degree, because even if you can get in – you won’t be able to Pass!
unfortunately the same is true with many yeshiva guys who go to law school off of BTLs (the not passing part)
jbaldy22 -“unfortunately the same is true with many yeshiva guys who go to law school off of BTLs (the not passing part)”
My friend went that way. He isn’t a genius, but he has a brain in his head. He now works for himself in Lakewood.
unfortunately the same is true with many yeshiva guys who go to law school off of BTLs (the not passing part)
shtuyot.
1. Law schools don’t fail people anymore.
2. There is nothing in undergrad that prepares you for law school anyway. (No, you don’t need to know how to write in law school, go read any law school forum)
Some of the info given regarding medical school admission requirements are not quite correct. While not every single school requires a degree from a four year school, the vast majority do. I have never heard of a single case of anyone going to medical school with only a BTL plus the prerequisite classes for applying. I can absolutely tell you that it would not be viewed favorably, and would certainly be viewed as “worse off” than an english or jewish studies major from an actual college.
To get back to the original post, which had nothing to do with law school or medical school, I would think that to get into the type of program you are talking about you would have to demonstrate the ability to do a college level research paper, which has two components- research ability and writing ability. I don’t know that a BTL would demonstrate that.
not saying that you can’t do it just its much more difficult to get into a good school with it and a high pct drop out or fail out (this is based on a conversation I had with the head of admissions at Fordham Law a while back).
popa_bar_abba “2. There is nothing in undergrad that prepares you for law school anyway. (No, you don’t need to know how to write in law school, go read any law school forum)”
I generally do not comment on here but I strongly disagree with the above and would like to add some other thoughts on this which may be helpful. By way of background, I graduated from law school a few years ago and I am currently working at a top law firm. I thought about getting a btl at one point but ultimately decided to go to college prior to law school.
Unlike medical school, almost anyone can get into ‘a’ law school as the standards for the lower tier schools are not particularly robust. Many smart yeshiva guys can get into pretty good law schools. But the key to getting one of the high paying jobs at the “biglaw” firms is to do well in a good law school. It is not that difficult to coast through any law school with B’s but it is very difficult to get one of the few A’s in the class. There are strict curves in most law schools, so that means beating your competition, which are folks coming from four years at ivy league and other top colleges from around the country.
Your grades will be based on finals which, for most classes, are based entirely on essay exams. Other classes will be based on a final paper. So, in fact, you are usually graded based solely on your analytical and writing skills (assuming that almost everyone studies the material and knows the information). So the difference between an A and a B will often be “knowing how to write”.
There have been some btl success stories that have gotten in to good law schools, done well, and went on to get jobs at good firms. But those are exceptional cases and were most likely very intelligent people who were able to overcome their lack of experience with taking written exams and writing papers relative to the other students, but not because writing doesn’t matter. And getting these jobs nowadays is substantially more competitive than it was 5 years ago.
Moreover, when applying for a law job, prospective employers will look at your resume, including your undergraduate degree and relevant work experience. Having a btl in talmudic law (even a 4.0!) and little or no experience will be measured against other resumes with degrees in business or science from top universities and internships/jobs at well-known institutions. These are just some more hurdles to overcome.
If your goal is not necessarily to get a job at a big law firm, that is fine. But getting a good paying job at any firm will likely depend on what school you went to and how well you did. Unfortunately, given the economy and current legal market, there are lots of lawyers with $100K or more of student loans with poor job prospects. So the combintation of a btl and a lower ranked law school / mediocre grades may not be a great bet.
Besides, if writing is not your thing, you may want to consider a different profession. While many people envision giving fascinating closing arguments or negotiating billion dollar transactions, most lawyers spend the bulk of their time sitting in an office reading/writing motions or contracts.
Of course, bitachon is key in any parnassah that one pursues, but I think the hishtadlus aspect should also be reasonable and not be rooted in ignorance or fantasy.
It is possible to go to medical/dental school with just a BTL. I know a handful of people who have done it over the past few years. Though it is getting harder, and I definitely would not recommend that route.
To go to medical/dental school you need to have taken calculus, biology, chemistry, physics and organic chemistry, so if those aren’t covered in your BTL, you need to get them elsewhere.
lawnmoer -Read what I wrote before – a lot of Yeshiva guys only want the degree and then they open up their own pratices.
heretohelp -“To go to medical/dental school you need to have taken calculus, biology, chemistry, physics and organic chemistry, so if those aren’t covered in your BTL, you need to get them elsewhere.”
That’s why noone knows how to practice medicine. What do you need this for -“calculus, chemistry (maybe?), physics and organic chemistry”?
“That’s why noone knows how to practice medicine. What do you need this for -“calculus, chemistry (maybe?), physics and organic chemistry”?”
Health, are you serious? You don’t think knowing this is necessary for the practice of medicine? So what do YOU think one should know to go to medical school?
Then again, apparently there were great people who knew medicine without ever having learned physics or chemistry.
(Btw, to the best of my knowledge, the only medical school that requires calculus is Harvard Medical School. Almost all other medical schools in the US require basic courses in biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, and physics.)
I found this list of medical schools that require some form of calculus or math.
Medical Schools with Math Requirements
(from MSAR 2007-2008)
The following chart lists all of the schools that publish a requirement in math. If you do not find a school on this list, it is
because they do not have a math requirement.
Alabama
University of Alabama 2 semesters college math
Calculus recommended
Computer Science recommended
University of S. Alabama 2 semesters college math
Calculus is recommended
Arkansas
University of Arkansas 2 semesters college math
Calculus recommended
Computer Science recommended
California
USC Keck College math recommended
Calculus recommended
Computer Science recommended
UC Davis 2 semesters College level Mathematics
Statistics is recommended
UC Irvine 1 semester Calculus
1 semester Statistics
UCLA 2 semesters college math which should include:
Study of Introductory Calculus and Statistics
Computer Science recommended
UC San Diego 2 semesters college math (only Calculus, Statistics, and
Computer Science will be acceptable)
Computer Science recommended
Loma Linda Intro to Basic Statistics recommended
Computer Science recommended
Stanford University Calculus recommended
Colorado
University of Colorado 2 semesters college math
Computer Science recommended
Connecticut
U Conn Math, Calculus recommended
District of Columbia
Georgetown University 1 semester college math/statistics
Computer Science recommended
Howard University 2 semesters college math
Florida
Florida State University 2 semesters college math
University of South Florida 2 semesters college math
Georgia
Morehouse School of
Medicine
2 semesters college math
Illinois
Southern Illinois University 2 semesters college math recommended
U Chicago Pritzker Calculus recommended
Iowa
U Iowa 1 semester college math
Kansas
University of Kansas 1 semester college math
Kentucky
University of Louisville 1 semester Calculus
2 semesters math overall recommended
Louisiana
Louisiana State-NO 1 semester calculus recommended
2 semesters math overall recommended
Computer Science recommended
Maryland
Johns Hopkins University 2 semesters Calculus
Computer Science recommended
Uniformed Services University 1 semester Calculus
Massachusetts
Boston University 2 semesters Calculus recommended
Harvard University 2 semesters Calculus
U Massachusetts Calculus, Statistics recommended
Computer Science recommended
Michigan
Michigan State University Math through College Algebra or Statistics and Probability
Computer Science recommended
Minnesota
U Minnesota Duluth 1 semester Calculus or upper level Statistics
U Minnesota Minneapolis 1 semester Calculus
Statistics recommended
Mississippi
University of Mississippi 2 semesters college math
Calculus recommended
Missouri
U Missouri-Columbia 1 semester college math
Washington University 2 semesters Calculus
Nebraska
University of Nebraska 1 semester Calculus
Nevada
U Nevada-Reno Calculus, College Math recommended
Computer Science recommended
New Hampshire
Dartmouth Medical School 1 semester Calculus
New Jersey
Medical School
1 semester college math is recommended
Johnson
1 semester college math
New York
Albert Einstein College of
Medicine
2 semesters college math (may include Computer Science or
Statistics)
Mt. Sinai School of Medicine 2 semesters college math (may include Computer Science or
Statistics)
University of Rochester Calculus, Biostatistics recommended
SUNY-Upstate Calculus recommended
North Carolina
Brody School of Medicine Biostatistics recommended
Duke University 1 semester Calculus
1 semester college math (statistics/biostastics recommended)
North Dakota
University of North Dakota 1 semester college math
Computer Science recommended
Ohio
Medical College of Ohio 2 semesters college math
Northeastern Ohio Calculus, College math recommended
University of Cincinnati Calculus, College math recommended
Computer Science recommended
Wright State University 2 semesters college math
Calculus recommended
Oregon
Oregon Health & Science
University
1 semester college math
Statistics, Calculus recommended
Pennsylvania
Jefferson College Math recommended
Pennsylvania State University 2 semesters college math
Calculus recommended
U of Pennsylvania Knowledge of Calculus, Algebra, Statistics recommended
Computer Science recommended
University of Pittsburgh Strong background in math recommended
Puerto Rico
Ponce School of Medicine 2 semesters college math or trig
Universidad Central del
Caribe
2 semesters college math
Calculus recommended Computer Science recommended
U of Puerto Rico Computer Science recommended
Rhode Island
Brown University 1 semester calculus
South Carolina
Medical University of SC 1 semester Calculus is recommended
South Dakota
University of South Dakota 2 semesters of college math
Calculus recommended
Texas
Texas A & M 1 semester Calculus
1 semester math-based Statistics
Texas Tech 1 semester Calculus
1 semester math-based Statistics
U of Texas-Galveston 1 semester Calculus
U of Texas-Houston 2 semesters College Math
U of Texas-San Antonio 1 semester Calculus
U of Texas-Southwestern 1 semester Calculus
Utah
U of Utah Calculus, College Math recommended
Vermont
UVM College Math recommended
Virginia
Virginia Commonwealth
University
2 semesters College Math
Wisconsin
Medical College of Wisconsin 1 semester College Math
University of Wisconsin 2 semesters College Math
Calculus, Statistics recommended
heretohelp, I’m sorry if I wasnt clear.
My comment was meant in response to FFG “I have never heard of a single case of anyone going to medical school with only a BTL plus the prerequisite classes for applying.”
To which I replied that it wa sin fact possible to go to Medical/dental school with just A BTL (obviously you have to take any specific perquisites that they require, as well as MCAT/DAT etc)
Ner Yisroel has (had?) such a program in place and has had BTl’s accepted in University of Maryland Medical and Dental schools, NYU dental school, SUNY at Buffalo school of medicine, Arizona School of dentistry, Technion, Ben Gurion University, amonng a few others.
That said I still dont recommend this path.
Health “lawnmoer -Read what I wrote before – a lot of Yeshiva guys only want the degree and then they open up their own pratices.”
Hanging your own shingle without at least a few solid years of experience learning the “practice” of law (which is not taught in law schools) is usually a bad idea. Thinking that you can just open up your own firm and that you will have clients and have any clue what you are doing is just one more misconception that people thinking about going to law school have.
Unless your father-in-law has a large legal practice with lots of paying clients, in which case why wouldn’t you just stay in Kollel…
Ubiquitin- I was responding to Bais Yakov Maidel’s comment that to the best of her knowledge, Harvard is the only medical school that requires calculus.
bais yakov maidel -“Health, are you serious? You don’t think knowing this is necessary for the practice of medicine? So what do YOU think one should know to go to medical school?”
I know that it isn’t important! The reason they have the requirements is because it’s a measurement of your IQ!
lawnmoer -“Hanging your own shingle without at least a few solid years of experience learning the “practice” of law (which is not taught in law schools) is usually a bad idea. Thinking that you can just open up your own firm and that you will have clients and have any clue what you are doing is just one more misconception that people thinking about going to law school have.”
Maybe that’s your misconception! Here in Lakewood, many people do just that and they make a fine income.
“Unless your father-in-law has a large legal practice with lots of paying clients, in which case why wouldn’t you just stay in Kollel…”
I actually know s/o like that. Another misconception of yours.
The FIL doesn’t want to support him forever, but is willing to pay
for him to go to Law school.
Law school is like signing up to stay put.
Health, testing IQ is a secondary reason for making ppl take those courses. The main reason is because you need to know that stuff to understand the first thing about modern medicine. Please tell me you were joking when you said it’s solely to test IQ. Besides, there were would be many shorter and less expernsive ways to test IQ more directly than make someone take 3 years worth of prerequisites and the mcat
bais yakov maidel -“Health, testing IQ is a secondary reason for making ppl take those courses. The main reason is because you need to know that stuff to understand the first thing about modern medicine. Please tell me you were joking when you said it’s solely to test IQ. Besides, there were would be many shorter and less expernsive ways to test IQ more directly than make someone take 3 years worth of prerequisites and the mcat”
No joking around. The only things that I’ve found helpful in college is A & P, 1 & 2, Microbiology, possibly Statistics, and knowing how to use a computer, nothing else!
health, are you a medical doctor?
bais yakov maidel -“health, are you a medical doctor?”
I don’t answer private questions!
bais yakov maidel -“health, are you a medical doctor?”
“I don’t answer private questions!”
I think we can take that as a no.
heretohelp -“I think we can take that as a no.”
Take it anyway you want.
Bais Yakov Maidel – I’d take it as a ‘no’ too, but I can tell you as someone who is a few months away from being a medical doctor that you are pretty much entirely correct in your assessment of the pre-med curriculum. True, no one is gonna ask you to synthesize a Grignard reagent, explain nucleophilic substitution, calculate Gibbs free energy constant or ask you to find the velocity of an electron in an electromagnetic field, in medical school. However, the underlying principles in many of the courses that teach you how to do those things are pretty important to medicine, and certainly do form a basis on which to build further scientific knowledge.
FFG that is nonsesne. Could you please provide an example of how the uderlying principle behind synthesizing a Grignard reagent (or any of your examples) is even a little (let alone “pretty”) important in medicine.
Health’s assesmsnt is entierly correct. (alhough granted he essentially replied “No to BYM’s question)
Good luck in the match
I didn’t say that the principle behind the specific examples that I gave were directly relevant to the practice of medicine. I said that the CLASSES in which those topics are taught contain underlying principles that are important to the study of medicine. As a quick example, in Physics 2, students learn a number of principles and forumlas related to electrical current, voltage, and resistance. The equations for determining these things are almost identical to those used to determine blood flow through the body. Cardiac output represents electrical current, blood pressure represents voltage and systemic vascular resistance represents electrical resistance. If one can understand the concepts related to electrical current, one will have a very easy time grasping hemodynamic concepts as well. Besides for other specific examples, most sciences are related to each other in some way, and knowledge gained in one area is very often at least tangentially applicable in another area. Being well rounded in the sciences is, in my opinion at least, very important to anyone seeking to enter the medical field. And at least for the time being (though there are some changes to the premed requirements that are being proposed), admissions offices at practically all US medical schools agree with me.
Thanks for your well wishes regarding the match!
ubiquitin,
are you serious???
how would one understand how antibiotics work without knowing molecular biology?
how would one know anything in orthopedics without understanding torque, young’s modulus, and newton’s three laws…?
how would one know anything about an MRI without understanding how moving charged particles interact with a magnetic field?
how would one know anything about radioactive tracing without understanding half-lives and radioactivity?
how would one know anything about opthamology without an understanding of optics (physics)?
how drugs work without knowing basic organic chemistry?
neurology and nervous system without knowing general chemistry? (think polarization, depalarization)
respiration (aerobic and anaerobic) without knowing general chemistry?
The am haratzus of some frum people regarding general/secular knowledge is best embarrassing and at worst absolutely pitiful.
FFG, I find it insane that we even need to justify ourselves.
FFG I did speak to addmisions officers All three said it was just measure iteligence.
Bis yakov maidel
You can pick up what you need to know in med school. You cite a few examples barely any of which are valid (Eg the average physician does not need to know how an MRI works nor does he/she)and Besides those can be taught in med school. It doesnt help the orthopedst much that he learnt young’s modulus at least 5 years prior to becoming an orthopedist. By the time it would become relevant it has long been forgotten. Ditto for your ophthalmologist example.
Even half of what you study the first year has zero real world application and will never be revisted by the average physician once step one is behind you.(think memorizing steps in Krebs cycle)
I happen to think those subjects are important in of themselves. But they have little to no application in the understanding or practice of real world medicine
ubiquitin -“FFG that is nonsesne. Could you please provide an example of how the uderlying principle behind synthesizing a Grignard reagent (or any of your examples) is even a little (let alone “pretty”) important in medicine.
Health’s assesmsnt is entierly correct.”
THANKS!
ubiqiotin,
I don’t know about you, but once learn a topic well, five years later, I may not remember every detail, but I it’s not the same as never having learned it before.
your attitude is reminiscent of an attitude I used to have, one that’s quite common of “yeah, I’ll be able to pick up all the stuff I need as I go along…jewish ppl are smart…”
Were these admissions officers doctors?
Whatever. I’m not arguing that you need every detail in the prerequsiite subjects in med school. I AM arguing that you need the prerequisites because you need a solid understanding of the sciences before you venture into modern medicine which is built on the sciences. You need a frame into which you can place all you learn in medical school. You need that foundation because you will need to make decisions based not just on random facts, but based on an understanding of how things relate to eachother.
Like learning the theory behind an equation, not just memorizing the equation and plugging in numbers. Goodness. Please don’t become a doctor with this attitude.
Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Though if you haven’t gone through medical school yet, I think you may be surprised to find out how wrong you are about this, if that is where you are headed.
Ffg
Do me a favorfile away this conversation in your head and please get back to me in a year I’m curious if you still feel the same way
don’t worry while you will be busy you will have some time for yeshiva world
ubiquitin – What about responding to “bais yakov maidel” isn’t she also a med/pre-med student?
BY maidel
I am not saying the information is useless. All I (and health) are saying is that the reason why (some) med schools require say organic chemistry and physics is, as one admissions officer told me “To separate the men from the boys” (All were doctors though only two were physicians the other was a PHD)It is not necessary for med school and even less necessary for medicine
There are a lot of skills that one must have before one can be a successful student in graduate school/med/dental/law schools.
Being bright does not guarantee success.
One need be able to write, that means spell (spell check won’t work), how to write a topic sentence, how to structure a paper, how to research a topic, how to “source” a paper, etc.
This is not a skill that is taught in most yeshivas and is NOT easily self-taught.
One needs to know how to research any topic, how to judge/rate information sources, etc.
There are very few excuses that are accepted in graduate school. One needs to know how to prepare and deliver projects on time. Yontiff is not an acceptable excuse.
The “graduate world” is a goyish world,(even Touro) and one often works in assigned groups. One needs to know how to interact, relate, and work with people outside of your comfort zone. It is not an easy transition.
College, or some college will,at least, prepare you for some of the challenges you will face.
Being smart, working hard will not bring success, you will need specific SKILLS to succeed.
Often, courses given in college, ie: anatomy, are required for admission for OT, PT, PA, MD schools EVEN though you will have to repeat it on the graduate level.
I cannot imagine how large a disadvantage it would be, going into these demanding programs unprepared.
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