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Zahavasdad, I sincerely hope that was a poor joke. I myself was bought up in an internet free home, and if I needed to do work or anything I was able to access it elsewhere in a controlled environment, such as when I did my research for exams in school, or when I did my shopping in the the community centre. Currently, I am computer literate, qualified and supremely able to deal with the outside world, and hold down a job. If you would like me to go into detail I would be glad to, but I can think of no way the internet would have made me any more worldly, learned or employable. It would have simply done what it has done to too many people I know, and damage them. It may not, but the risk enormous.
And flatbusher, to quote John McEnro, you cannot be serious. The internet is not a gift, it’s a test. It may be useful and often necessary evil, but a world without it would be an infinitely better one.
Remember, we are not talking about adults here, or even older teens. We are talking about children, as outlined in the thread title. And allowing them any kind of access is simply asking for trouble. And so, allow me to phrase the question thus. Should a child (define that how you wish) have regular internet access in the house? To which the answer is unequivocally a firm no.
Good luck with it, they will get online somehow or-rather.
Safer they do it with your permission on a filtered PC then on a unfiltered device.
ZD,
Which seforim did you find only on Hebrew Books lately?
Rebyidd,
There are many things that are part of and necessary to life that are not necessary to expose children to when they are children. Your extrapolation is illogical.
Flatbusher,
That argument is specious. There are many things that exist and were discovered that are inappropriate for children.
IE, children cannot operate a car.
And many, many more
“Children” means people to whom you are a parent.
And what extrapolation? That was me making fun. (Also, i.e. is not e.g.)
nishtdayngesheft:
Finally, somebody who can see sense. This entire debate has been typified by every reasoned point against the fallacy of having home internet counteracted by the exact one line, badly thought out non-arguments that are calculated to assuage ones conscience. for example, it’s necessary for work (so have it in your office), it’s necessary for learning (arguable, and that can definitely be done outside the home, such as in school or in a community centre), they’ll get online some other way (not true for the vast majority of kids, especially if allowed to use it in a controlled environment outside the home), and so on and so forth. If anybody can provide a reasoned, sensible case for having internet in the home and allowing your children to access it, please provide one, because all that has been until now have been, and I’ll say it again, mindless self-justifications.
Every Godol has said, repeatedly and forcefully, that there is no heter to have it in the home, and that includes for learning. So yes, by following daas Torah, I know what Hashem wants from a person.
I think we can agree the people who run sites like torahanytime , yutorah , sawyouatsinai , shabbat etc are frum people and are doing mitzvoh with their websites
And Maybe just maybe Hashem gets alot of Nachass from all the yidden who are able to learn torah and hear shiurim they would not otherwise be able to do. Have you considered that possibility?
And now to deal with the latest extrapalation…
“Children” means people to whom you are a parent.
The title of the thread refers to ‘raising’ children. Above a certain age you can no longer be considered to be raising a child, whilst you may still be a a parent to them and still ‘parent’ them. I can only repeat what Vogue has said multiple times. A child does not need the internet in any incarnation as they grow up, and therefore, knowing as we do all the attendant dangers, having it in the house and/or allowing them free access (free as in unfettered, not as in unfiltered), from as frum standpoint, can only be seen as wilful child neglect, if not abuse.
And whilst you claim to be ‘only making fun’, Reb Yid, I don’t mean to insult your sense of humour, it does come across as what nisht says it was – extrapolation.
And maybe just maybe Hashem gets a lot of Nachass from all the yidden who are able to learn Torah and hear shiurim they would not otherwise be able to do. Have you considered that possibility?
I’m sure Hashem does get nachas from, and I quote, people who would not otherwise be able to learning from online sites. So if someone will be online anyway it is a mitzva for them to learn, and for others to enable them to do so. But for a frum yid (and the last time I checked, this was the Yeshiva World News, not Aish.com), who has plenty of resources, and for whom the internet is not necessary to learn, using these sites as a justification (there’s that word again) for having internet at home is ridiculous. It’s one thing if a responsible adult looks at these sites whilst working in an office, but the image of a grown, frum man bringing a laptop into the home, endangering himselff and of course his family, because he ‘wants it for learning’ is not only stupid, but against daas Torah.
Are you genuinely trying to be cleverer or more righteous than Reb Chaim Kannievsky, Reb Elyashiv or any other of the numerous Gedolim who have unequivocally banned domestic internet use?
I am also sure Hashem also gets alot of Nachass from all the Chachnasat Orchim from Shabbat and the Shidduchem from sawyouatsinai
Hashem wants you to listen to daas Torah. Daas Torah says you shouldn’t have the internet in your house, and certainly not for your children. You can’t just think you knew better, that you’re cleverer than them. Do you?
Everything can be viewed either as a test or a gift. Someone asked a well-known rav (and I was present) about whether one is permitted to eat kosher food that is made to resembler non-kosher. The rav responded that if Hashem gave the chochmah to create, who are we to deny using it. Each person has to known for himself what is a test, but I don’t know how one can generalize with the Internet. There are people who just cannot control themselves when it comes to the Internet, or alcohol, or gambling. For those of us who do not have the taiveh, are these tests? Same with Internet with kids. You raise them and guide them how to responsible, maybe they can use it without the dangers.
Neut, ” Daas Torah ” is not monolithic.
Neut, when the rabbonim called for the ban, I suspect it was based on what people told them rather than first-hand experience.
Flatbusher,
Oh come ON!!! You can’t be serious. I am not eloquent like Vogue and Neutiquam, so I will leave it to them to refute your argument. I just want to say that you are not being realistic.
What is not realistic is to believe that you can ban the Internet when so many people make their parnassa from it. It is often said it is easier to assur something than to understand why some is allowed. The fact that you are here, as well as all the others who post, just proves that you are ignoring the ban on the Internet anyway, so why be so self-righteous about it? Why does Yeshiva World even exist if we’re not supposed to have the Internet? Why do so many other frum websites exist if someone out there didn’t believe that the Internet is a vehicle for good. I am sick and tired of the folks who claim to be following daas Torah and then end up posting here.
I make my living from the internet
Zahavasdad, 2014
When the rabbonim called for the ban, I suspect it was based on what people told them rather than first-hand experience.
flatbusher, 2014
I know the openings of the filters
Rebyidd23, 2014
Your being against internet in the home is a justification for raising children who will never know how to live in the real world.
Rebyidd23, 2014
It is often said it is easier to assur something than to understand why some is allowed.
flatbusher, 2014
My parents let me do wtvr I want and don’t care, I have to set my own bounderies. It’s hard…
shopping613, 2014
Internet usage should by all means be
avoided in homes… In any event, children should
not be given internet access.
Reb Aaron Moshe Shechter, Reb Aharan Feldman, Reb Avrohom Chaim Levin, Reb Aryeh Malkiel Kotler, Reb Dovid Feinstein, Reb Shmuel Kammenetsky, 2011
What is not realistic is to believe that you can ban the Internet when so many people make their parnassa from it.
This discussion is not about banning the internet, it’s about raising kids with access. Adult usage, in whatever environment, is a debate for another day.
Neut, and what do you suppose happens when the kids leave the house and find the Internet elsewhere? Don’t you think it is wiser to educate them on it and how to use it responsibly? I think it is mistake to think you can shield children from the world, because when they get out there and don’t know what they’re facing, the outcome could be even worse. I am not saying you need to expose them to all this, but at least educate them before they find out things for themselves.
BTW, Neut, if you follow DaasTorah, how are you participating in this discussion?
Should parents show their kids TV, too, “to educate them on it and how to use it responsibly” since “I think it is mistake to think you can shield children from the world, because when they get out there and don’t know what they’re facing, the outcome could be even worse”?
BTW, Neut, if you follow DaasTorah, how are you participating in this discussion?
The roshei yeshiva he mentioned, AFAIK, do not asser internet in total, or adult use of a moderated forum such as this one.
Should parents show their kids TV, too
Not a great analogy, since TV’s primary function is entertainment, and the content is rarely acceptable. I don’t really see a way to eduducate in its proper use.
Internet, though, has a very practical use, and I can understand the argument for education in how to make sure to use it properly.
I still think that young children should not have free access to internet, and that an internet free home is ideal, if not always feasible.
DaasYochid and Lior have pretty much said it all in terms of my planned response, but…
I specifically said earlier that this debate is about home usage for children, but immediately somebody replies by asking about me. If it helps, I’m not twelve, at least not the last time I checked. Whether it is right for an adult to regularly go online for nonbusiness purposes is another question, for another time (feel free to start another thread about it). Remember that here we are talking about children. And younger children cannot choose how they run their life, or moderate their usage or access. The parent essentially makes the choice for them. And when the life at risk is not your own, but another, vulnerable, one that is dependent on you to guide it and protect it, the entire issue becomes far more serious.
Next, not a single reply is made to mine, and others’, reference to the fact that Rabbonim have unequivocally ossured children having access to the internet, certainly on a regular basis. The only posts that even refer to them obliquely, appear to border on kefirah, and I do not say that lightly.
And lastly, as usual, most of the justifications for home internet are based on the premise that children must be educated on ‘the ways of the world’ or, through some rather twisted logic, that having online access would in some way protect them. Now, whilst I wish to be very careful to avoid insulting anybody (I have been warned that some of my posts have been too harsh), I personally find it hard to accept that this is the true reason one might wish to have it in the house. As I believe I have mentioned, I cannot see how the internet is absolutely necessary to educate children in these matters. My parents managed it, despite not having any home internet access (and, yes, it would have been useful in business terms). Children can be educated in a myriad ways without the web, and furthermore, if a parent does not feel they can inpart the correct values in their child without the aid of the internet, perhaps they should first look inward.
There is a difference between protecting children from the negative aspects of the outside world, of which I can safely say are all available on the internet in some way or other, and neglecting to educate them at all on those matters, leaving them open to those same dangers. The internet is not the prevention, it’s the disease. There is not a single way in which it is needed for a child, and a million ways in which it is not. So the question is, from my point of view, not what’s wrong with it (which I assume and hope we all agree on), but what’s right with it.
flatbusher:
Just read the title. It says ‘raising’ children. So simply assertion at what age you would consider a child to be being ‘raised’, and assume we are talking about that.
As for your next two issues, they have both been dealt with earlier in the thread.
(I have chosen to disregard your query about rabbonim, as you are generalizing, thereby conveniently ignoring the real issue, which, as mentioned above, is children, and therefore entirely practical as regards their usage)
Incidentally, what is going on with the order of the post?
Not a great analogy, since TV’s primary function is entertainment, and the content is rarely acceptable. I don’t really see a way to eduducate in its proper use.
Internet, though, has a very practical use, and I can understand the argument for education in how to make sure to use it properly.
You have PBS and other educational television for children.
But there are rabbonim who asser it in all situationss, which is not at all practical. How many people go online for education courses to avoid mixing with goyim in a school setting? So, is it better for them to go to the classroom? The person who started this thread did not indicate the age of the children, as a far as I can tell, but if he is talking about really young ones, then what’s the question? And for older ones, there are various filters one can install to block content.
Lior: That’s a small minority, and I distrust PBS to impart correct values. Don’t you?
Of course. But I am defending my comparison of TV to the internet, for the purposes of this discussion. Many folks, including here I believe, would defend PBS as being educational.
Only a small proportion of the internet, too, is worthy of being used by Jewish families.
But there are rabbonim who asser it in all situationss
Do you see what you just did? You’re trying to tell us which rabbonim we should follow, so that when we follow others, you can accuse us of not following daas Torah. Pretty outrageous.
Lior, proportion is not the issue. There’s a lot more appropriate, even beneficial content, available on the internet than on TV.
In some ways, internet is worse than TV, and in some ways, TV is worse than internet, but a direct analogy is doomed to fail
Incidentally, what is going on with the order of the post?
They’re being switched.
When I next look at the thread in a few hours, can there please be some concrete, i.e. specific, reasons why home internet is necessary for younger children, by which I mean actual site names, processes, etc. that cannot be done in another manner or in a secure envirinment such as a community centre, and that are important enough to justify the risks. Thank you.
I would be surprised if any prominent rabbonim would approve of young children having access without direct supervision.
Some of my responses were misposted above the posts they were responding to, in case anybody was wondering.
Ironically, the maan deomar I find myself agreeing most with is a DaasYochid.
Regarding the order of the posts:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/-1-years
If you notice within the 25-minute editing limit, you can edit
a note into any such post – click on EDIT underneath them.
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