Broken Engagements

oomis1105, re:”Much of this is discovered during the engagement period, which really IMO ought to be the COURTSHIP period, with more time alotted to it before getting engaged.”

Lav Davka, I heard of a case of a couple dating (and there are probably many others) where the boy just couldn’t commit, and went out on close to twenty lengthy dates, after which he finally did propose, only to break the engagement a week before the wedding.

Are you suggesting some singles should date for many months, if they’re unsure?

I say, if either side has to be coaxed more than the norm, that Shidduch shouldn’t hsppen ever, not months later either.

AZOI – my sister was dating a guy for about two months. He was ready to get married and she wasn’t quite ready to commit. (this was a shidduch date system) His Rav told him to break it off because “If she isn’t ready now, she will never be.” He broke up with her.

After about a 2 month break, she contacted him to see if he wanted to give it another shot. B”H they are happily married for just about ten years (in August) with three wonderful children.

This “one size fits all” dating philosophy is the worst thing. It almost destroyed a potential marriage.

Young, I would ask the shadchan for some basic information. Then go out with him – if there is nothing between you two, then it doesnt matter. If you really like him, start asking him what happened.

Can someone please clarrify? Is it true that once you write Tenoyim during the engagement, one cannot break the shidduch and must wait till after marriage?

Is that why Chassidim are makpid on Tenoyim?

If i were you I would check into why did the boy break his engagment BEFORE i would agree to date him.This is because there may be emotional issues that you may not be aware of, and you do not want to be the rebound girl!

Also once you start dating a person you become emotionally involved and if there really is an issue it’s going to be very hard for you to stop seing the person! That is why it’s best to find out whatever you can before the date!

SJS, it is dependant upon ones minhug. Some do the tnuyim before the wedding, while others do it at the wedding.

Not all chassdim sign tenoyim at the vort. In my chassidus we do sign at the wedding.

But even after tenoyim is signed, its not that u CANT break the shidduch. I’ve heard of that already. Its just that a broken engagement is much worse than a divorce since it involves much more humiliation.

(Please think twice before breaking a shidduch. Maybe it does pay to get married and try it out) please don’t attack me, I don’t know anyones situation but if possible, it is better to get married and divorce than break a shidduch.

Hatzlacha rabbah to everyone

Why not ask the parties involved? I know someone who made a shidduch for a divorced man by calling his ex-wife to hear her perspective. Turns out that all those who heard all sorts of reasons for the divorce and who would have ruined a shidduch by spreading that information, were all wrong. The ex wife actually had very nice things to say about her ex husband and recommended him very highly to someone who shared the same hashka as he did. She “moved to the left” while he “grew to the right” and they could not live together and raise a family under those circumstances.

I agree with smart cookie. Shidduchim are not disposable. People are literally desparate for shidduchim these days. If something suitable comes up, try to make it work!

I’m not sure that I agree with your point of view. I would think that a marriage is a lot less “disposable” than a shidduch — and so to suggest going ahead with a flawed shidduch may not be the best answer.

In truth, shidduchim are a lot like marriages (to belabor the obvious point). There are some defects that can (and perhaps should) be worked through, but then there are some defects that should completely shut the shidduch down (i.e. if one party physically hits the other, etc.). In the end, each one has to be decided on a case-by-case basis. There is no “one size fits all” advice for this sort of thing.

The Wolf

I am married over 30 years. Before I met my husband, I was engaged to some one else. We even had tenoyim. Many people didn’t want to go out with me because of this. Smart Cookie, it STILL isn’t a reason to go through with the marrige rather than breaking an engagement.

Some one looking to go out with a person who was engaged once should ask if there was tenoyim because then you do need a shtar mechila. Otherwise you don’t. Understand that when you ask what went wrong, there are 3 stories: his, hers and the truth. Each party will have the story as seen through their eyes. Even if they broke of because one side was obnoxious and abusive, do you think that person will see it that way? I don’t think so.

As with anything, you are entitle to ask questions as long as you don’t embarass or humiliate the person. After 30+ years, I still feel badly about a certain person who did his best to “pick me apart”. Have rachmanus.

Hatzlacha raba.

Ok, lets bear in mind one thing:

People break engagements for the silliest reasons. Issues that they would NEVER consider divorcing for.

Maybe the Chassidish way IS the better way. The fact that Choson Kallha dont see eachother very often during their engagement. This way, they dont have the possiblility to pick on trivial things which can be worked out during marriage.

I once dated a girl who had a broken engagement. I was set up by the cousin of the guy who broke the engagement. His family made him break the engagement because the girl’s family was not of the “bessere mentchen”.

There is an interesting story in my family about this. My grandfather was a student in the the yeshiva in Dej. By all accounts, he was a star student and the Dejer Rav took special interest in him. At the rav’s urging a shidduch was made with the daughter of the Rosh Hakahal and my grandfather; a fine match for a boy from considerably more humble a home. Shidduchim however were a business, and some shadchanim were less scrupulous than others. My grandfather was approached by one such shadchan who told him that in Sibiu, Romania (A relative tank town in terms of Jewish life) there was a very wealthy frum ba’albos who was desperate to find a suitable match for his 18 year old daughter. He was so desperate he paid shachanim a fee just to produce boys for his daughter to meet. If a match were to be made, there would be an additional fee paid. This shadchan told my grandfather than he was just the type of boy this man sought for his daughter and sugested that notwithstaning my grandfather’s engagement he should go to Sibiu for a weekend and the shadchan would split that “appearance fee” with him. Desperate for money, my grandfather agreed. Well you can guess what happened; it was love at first sight. My great grandfather fell in love with the boy the moment he saw him, and so did his daughter. My grandfather was smitten as well. Upon his return to Dej, my grandfather sought to break off the engagement. My great grandftaher, ever an honorable man, sent a letter offering to recompense the first girls father for all his expenses etc. After a short din Torah, an amount of damages was set and paid. M grandfther was then told to marry the first girl and divorce her the next day so as to preserve her honor. He refused one two grounds. First he said that since he has no intention of staying married, there is no gemirat da’at in the kinyan kiddushin and any assumed marriage would have the taint of beilat znut. Secondly, he saw no point in rendering his former fiance ineligible to marry a kohen. He could not be disuaded from this and flat out refused. As a result he left Dej with a black cloud hanging over his head, movd to Sibiu, married my grandmother and they had four children, one of them my mother. As a denoument, in the 1960’s in Paris, my grandfather happened to meet up with his former chavrusa from Dej, who told him that shortly after he left Des, the Rosh Hakahal’s daughter was redt to another boy, a kohen, and they had a wonderful life together.

I acutally have a cousin that broke an engagement right after l’chaim… Found out minute too late something about the girl.. He’s waiting over a year now for shidduchim… People are scared to even consider going out with him… He is great boy- all mallus- big masmud, great middos…

I wonder how I can know if you’re going out with him… if so- no doubts at all…

nameless, I’ve heard other iterations of your maaisele. 🙂

To cantoresq: interesting – and fortuitous – that they hadn’t made tanaiim at the engagement.

Qctually tzippi there were t’naim, thus the din Torah.

I heard he left the girl in the rain.

Good luck to you, young! Hope it all goes well!

mepal, how about, “hope everything goes with mazel, whichever way.”?

I’m not into reforming the way other people talk, this just bothered me a little. 🙂

*kapusta*

gourmet,

I fail to understand your point.

If your parents had taken your advice, you would not be here to tell us it.

Azolis, there are many good reasons to break an engagement. In my case, I found out that he was controling and secretive. He was working under another name. I found out (too late) that he never went to the yeshiva that he claimed to have. He grew up in EY and it was difficult to check.

Some one I know found out after the engagment that he was really very sick. No one told her before this.

Some one I know found out that his father beat his mother and he didn’t think it was wrong.

Someone my sister know forgot to check with Dor Yeshurun until waaaay into the engagment. They decided to break the engagment rather than take the risks.

There are many very, very good reasons break and engagment. Dont be judgmental.

A) I once heard that there are three side to the story.

1)his side

2)her side

3)the truth

There is a fourth side as well. THE REAL TRUTH.

B)They decided to break the engagment rather than take the risks.

They could STILL have checked with Dor Yesharim – what if everything was ok with their DNA – they could always break it off a few weeks later, if they so desired. I think that was a precipitous action to just break up without knowing for sure.

Here’s a question, though. I was always under the impression that to break tenoim was the equivalent of giving a GET, and that the girl could not marry a Kohein after that. Is it true that she must be qiven some type of “GET?” This is (so I was told) why tenoim are done generally only just before the chuppah, in most circles. In any case, a broken egagement is FAR,FAR,FAR better than a broken marriage. It may not always be easy to find new shidduchim after an angagement was broken, but it is still easier than redding shidduchim to women who were married and divorced, and who possibly have a child or two as part of the deal. When they are in their early twenties, most age appropriate guys will not want this situation, unless they, too are divorced and possibly have a child.

“Oomis, I guess I wasn’t clear. The couple did check with Dor Yesharun but after the engagment. They were both carriers”

Perhaps I just did not understand what you posted. I am so sorry for the parties involved. That is so sad. they should both have much simcha and nachas in the coming years. As to the shtar mechilah, this is something I have only heard about in the last two years. It is apparently given by the aggrieved party in the breakup to the one who called it off, to show there are no hard feelings, I guess. It has nothing to do with tenoim, though, from my understanding. My friend’s son never had tenoim until the wedding took place, but he gave his ex-kallah a shtar mechillah when her family called off the wedding. He is happily married with a child now, so it shows what is bashert is bashert.

I am sure you MORE than pass muster! 🙂

There seems to be some misunderstanding about tenaim, I’ll try to explain it a bit.

In Europe, especially 18th and 19th century,but also before and after, many shidduchim were made without the man and woman having met. Life was tough, between pogroms, limitations on travel, death from disease and many other factors, it was not possible to “hang out in a hotel lounge and see what comes of the match”. There was alot of trust put into whoever suggested the match, and often large sums of money. The Chassam Sofer was often asked to arbiter the percentage of the dowry that the Rav receives for performing the marriage. The community also recieved a percentage from one or both parties. The terms of the marriage were negotiated and quibbled over, often as if it were a high-end business deal.

If one of the parties pulled out, there was major embarrasment and often serious financial loss. It was not to be taken lightly. There were penalties that were spelled out in the contract for whomever backed out and they were stringently enforced. These penalties were not only financial , but spiritual in the way of curses and ominous consequences for the future. Sometimes these penalties were so overwhelming and the conditions so stringent that it was decided to go ahead with the wedding anyway. This is why sometimes it was said that a divorce is better than breaking the tenaim. It also explains a shtar mechila for the party that was harmed.

Nowadays, these severe conditions are rare . Agreements are made, but not necessarily in stone. The tenaim is often a formality at the wedding that simply states that the conditions were met and everybody is ok with it. It is done for traditional purposes and not for contractual purposes.

There are probably still circles, mostly chassiddish, who take their tenaim very seriously and maybe even append penalties to them. In that case, yes, it can be a serious matter to break them. Since all these minhagim are community and rabbinically administered, each one goes by their own rov and posek and lives with the decision.